Bad Breeder Alert!

tempura tantrum

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#21
isn't docking a good idea for a working dog?
In some cases- yes, it is a good idea. This generally applies to dogs that would ordinarily have thinner, "whip-like" tails, that would theoretically be more prone to breakage than a tail with thicker bone. A good example would be a Doberman. (There are also claims that docking is done to prevent an intruder or assailant from having an easy to access "handle" on a dog- makes perfect sense to me).

In the case of an ACD, they have thick, powerful tails, that would more likely than not, be an *asset* to the dog. If you've ever watched these guys at work on stock, you'll see that they are making extraordinarily quick turns, mad dashes left and right, and stopping on a dime. When a dog is moving so fast, a tail is invaluable as sort of a "rudder."

Have you ever noticed when a dog makes a sharp turn as it's running at top speed, that it's tail does kind of a "windmill" whirl in a circle? This is an effort to stay upright and balanced- a lot harder to do without a tail!

Furthermore, based on tail-length and carriage in these guys (not to mention the *way* in which they work cows), I think an injury based on a dog's tail getting stepped on would be extraordinarily unlikely. ACDs are more at risk from getting nailed by a kick to the *face* (which would cause a LOT more damage, as I'm sure we can all agree). As such, you'd want that dog to have all the advantages it could get in terms of speed and agility- and one of those advantages is a tail.

As far as BYB- it means "backyard breeder." It's a term for people who breed dogs on a smaller scale than a puppymill, but may still be doing so for profit. Or because "puppies are so cute," "Holly and Buddy are cute and friendly and I want them to have puppies," "I want my children to see the miracle of birth," and a myriad of other excuses.

They generally forgo genetic testing of the sire and dam, usually because they have no idea that such tests even exist. In ACDs this is a real travesty- there are major problems with deafness in this breed. BAER testing on all breeding stock (and all puppies before they go home), is a must. Deaf dogs CAN be trained- but it's no simple task, and how much better would it be to simply produce puppies with hearing?

I believe progressive retinal atrophy is also a major health concern. No one wants to see their previously healthy 2 year old dog go blind- and this could very well be avoided by health testing of the parents.

Hip dysplasia is horribly debilitating. It can cost upwards of thousands of dollars to fix- and in some cases, is so expensive that many owners simply don't have the means to pay for the surgery. In that case, the dog is put down. I can only imagine how heartbreaking that would be, especially in a breed that absolutely *thrives* on physical activity.

So you can see, despite the fact that BYBs may be well-meaning, good people- lives ARE getting toyed with, and people AND dogs are getting hurt. Dogs should be obtained from rescues and shelters (as you already pointed out- kudos! :D), or from ethical, responsible breeders who are willing to do EVERYTHING it takes- not just the bare minimum. We have enough homeless dogs out there, that only the best should be breeding, regardless of their intentions.

If any of you true ACD people have more to add- go to it! I'd love to hear more about this breed, as I've been getting more and more fascinated with them- and thinking about adding one to my clan in the distant future.
 
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Red_ACD_for_me

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#22
smoore said:
I'm laughing about you not "qualifying". I figure anyone here probably loves and cares for their dogs more than 90% of owners.

re: tail giving balance: Well that makes sense. A better balanced dog is much less likely to get stepped on ;)

So... BYB would connote someone who is simply breeding dogs for quick profit, not one who cares about any particular breed or quality of life? If so, you're correct, that's what this person sounds like. Probably likes the breed, uses them for work and decided to profit from them breeding.
OMG! I just checked the puppy page and she has 4 litters ready to ship at one time! She only breeds "PET QUALITY" dogs and already has three or more litters planned for Christmas! BYB all the way for profit only. It is discusting!
 

smoore

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#24
Red_ACD_for_me said:
OMG! I just checked the puppy page and she has 4 litters ready to ship at one time! She only breeds "PET QUALITY" dogs and already has three or more litters planned for Christmas! BYB all the way for profit only. It is discusting!
wow. that's the definition of a puppy mill, IMO.
 

Red_ACD_for_me

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#25
Your Welcome! This is a great place to learn lots about our 4 legged friends! And Tempura, you got just about everything. I can think about anything else to add about what you said. Just the fact that ACD's are not a breed for just anyone. They are tough tanks of a dog,very drivey, and are a naturally suspicious breed of strangers.
 

tempura tantrum

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#26
Just the fact that ACD's are not a breed for just anyone. They are tough tanks of a dog,very drivey, and are a naturally suspicious breed of strangers.
The more I hear, the more I LOVE! Part of the reason I was so drawn to ACDs was the fact that their attidudes remind me very much of Shibas. I don't want a dog that loves everyone- I've always enjoyed the Shiba's reserved nature, and the fact that they are very protective of their family. I was thrilled to find that ACDs are very similar in this regard.

I've never been a fan of dogs that are traditionally considered "easy" to train. I like a stubborn dog that wants a *reason* for commands, and gets easily bored with repetition. The easiest way I can explain this is that when you ask a Golden to sit, it says "Sure." When you ask a Shiba to sit, it asks "why?" I have loved the challenge of training with Nordic breeds- I think I'd like a shot at training Australia's favorite dog.

The other things I like about ACDs are the things that make them *different* from Shibas. I love showing my dogs, but the problem with Shibas is that they look pretty skanky when they blow coat in the summer. They're effectively "un-showable." It would be a nice change of pace to have an animal I could compete with year round.

Furthermore, I'm an athlete through and through. I absolutely adore the sport of agility...but anyone who knows Shibas can appreciate why I don't *compete* with them. The cardinal rule in this breed is "NEVER TAKE THEM OFF LEASH." In my 10 years in the breed, I have personally met a grand-total of TWO dogs that were *passable* off-lead...the odds aren't so good.

So, while both Tai and Kimi are trained in agility, I simply will never feel comfortable enough to have them off lead on a consistent enough basis to become competitive. My Shibas are *never* off lead unless in a fenced area that I've previously inspected for small holes. (And unfortunately they can climb chain link...so that's out...LOL).

It would be fantastic to have a dog that COULD be trusted off lead. (And quite a change of pace, as well!)

I'm also a long-distance runner. I'd love to have a canine training buddy. And being a pretty small female (under 5 feet tall), it wouldn't be unwelcome to have a dog with that natural suspicion of strangers, by my side. (Face it...most people aren't afraid of Shibas...although they should be :D ).

I had a good look at the DuWest site and really liked what I saw. Loved their page on puppies, and how they go about deciding what puppy (if any), they place with you. I've also looked at the Reddenblu site, and thought their dogs were just incredibly typey. ACD people, any opinions on Reddenblu?

Any other breeders you really like? I'd like to learn as much as possible.
 

_netpup_

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#27
smoore said:
OK, so it's basically false claims of pedigree and a possible puppymill. I'm not happy about puppymills but the housing she claims seems humane; the dogs look healthy and well groomed. What's BYB mean?

I understand that the ACDs traditionally have tails but isn't docking a good idea for a working dog? I've been told that if a horse/cow steps on a working dog's tail it can ruin the dog by injuring it's back (and we all know a ruined working dog is a dead working dog :(). Is that even true? Obviously it would be painful for the dog but can it cause deabilitating injury?

edit: I have no opinion about the crossbred mutts. I don't have any information on which to base one.

If you've ever seen an ACD up close, you'll notice their tails come up off the ground, they do not drag, and I've never seen an ACD go down on the ground when herding, let alone lose an animal from it's view for very long.


EDIT: didn't see up there that tempura already states that!! sorry for the repeat.
 
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AusCatDogs_4Ever

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#28
tempura tantrum said:
The more I hear, the more I LOVE! Part of the reason I was so drawn to ACDs was the fact that their attidudes remind me very much of Shibas. I don't want a dog that loves everyone- I've always enjoyed the Shiba's reserved nature, and the fact that they are very protective of their family. I was thrilled to find that ACDs are very similar in this regard.

I've never been a fan of dogs that are traditionally considered "easy" to train. I like a stubborn dog that wants a *reason* for commands, and gets easily bored with repetition. The easiest way I can explain this is that when you ask a Golden to sit, it says "Sure." When you ask a Shiba to sit, it asks "why?" I have loved the challenge of training with Nordic breeds- I think I'd like a shot at training Australia's favorite dog.

The other things I like about ACDs are the things that make them *different* from Shibas. I love showing my dogs, but the problem with Shibas is that they look pretty skanky when they blow coat in the summer. They're effectively "un-showable." It would be a nice change of pace to have an animal I could compete with year round.

Furthermore, I'm an athlete through and through. I absolutely adore the sport of agility...but anyone who knows Shibas can appreciate why I don't *compete* with them. The cardinal rule in this breed is "NEVER TAKE THEM OFF LEASH." In my 10 years in the breed, I have personally met a grand-total of TWO dogs that were *passable* off-lead...the odds aren't so good.

So, while both Tai and Kimi are trained in agility, I simply will never feel comfortable enough to have them off lead on a consistent enough basis to become competitive. My Shibas are *never* off lead unless in a fenced area that I've previously inspected for small holes. (And unfortunately they can climb chain link...so that's out...LOL).

It would be fantastic to have a dog that COULD be trusted off lead. (And quite a change of pace, as well!)

I'm also a long-distance runner. I'd love to have a canine training buddy. And being a pretty small female (under 5 feet tall), it wouldn't be unwelcome to have a dog with that natural suspicion of strangers, by my side. (Face it...most people aren't afraid of Shibas...although they should be :D ).

I had a good look at the DuWest site and really liked what I saw. Loved their page on puppies, and how they go about deciding what puppy (if any), they place with you. I've also looked at the Reddenblu site, and thought their dogs were just incredibly typey. ACD people, any opinions on Reddenblu?

Any other breeders you really like? I'd like to learn as much as possible.
Wow, the ACD seems perfect for you!:D I don't know much about Shibas but aren't they an independent breed? I hear they are "cat-like". ACDs are very dependent on their people (although they are a one person dog).

They are great off-leash dogs as they would rather be by your side than wonder off. Which makes them a great breed for hiking, agility, etc... They also aren't raomers, they would much rather stay on their own territory (unless of course they aren't fixed!)

ACDs are a fairly easy breed to show. They are "wash and wear" dogs so you don't have to do a lot of work with their coats.

If you like protective dogs, ACDs will protect their owner and property with their life. They are great watch dogs. They will bark at anything suspicious on or near their property, otherwise they are a very queit breed.

I really like Reddenblu's dogs, she produces great show dogs... She is one of my favorite breeders, along with Agassiz. You should check them out too.
 

tempura tantrum

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#29
Shibas but aren't they an independent breed? I hear they are "cat-like".
You're right on the money with this- they're highly independent, happy to just "do their own thing" while you go about your day. I love this trait in Shibas- and really, I'll never be without a Shiba in my home.

But the independence factor isn't a make it or break it deal for me. I actively recognize that the ACD would be very different in terms of it's needs for companionship, and I welcome and relish that change. It will be interesting sharing life with a dog that WANTS to be at my side 24/7!

The addition of an ACD in my life will occur in several years. I've got one more year of undergrad, and then it's off to grad school. Depending on where I am, and what my commitments are, I may or may not have dogs while I'm in grad school. (Fingers crossed that I WILL be able to, I don't think I could survive another 4 more years without a dog!)

The one-person dog thing is fantastic. I've always been more drawn to dogs that bond with one person, rather than all of humanity.

I LOVE the wash n wear thing. Shibas are relatively easy-groomers, but once they blow coat, they just look kind of skanky. (Kimi looks sort of like a miniature molting buffalo right now, and Tai is just plain naked). They're pretty much impossible to show during the summer, unless I keep them inside all day with the AC on- which I just can't do. They're my pets before they're my show dogs.

I love the protective nature of my Shibas, and I'm really just thrilled to hear what ACD owners say about the protective nature of their own dogs. And the fact that they don't bark as much as some of the other herding breeds is a plus. Shibas rarely bark, and I'm not a fan of dogs that go off the handle when the pH of the air changes.

I will definitely take a look at Agassiz- thanks for the link!

If you don't mind me asking, where did you get Charlie? I love his "smile."

Finally (I know, I'm jut full of questions today!) do you have any breed-specific books you would recommend? I've had a hard time finding anything worth buying. I'd love to find one with examples of past greats in the breed, (both dogs and breeding programs).
 

AusCatDogs_4Ever

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#30
tempura tantrum said:
If you don't mind me asking, where did you get Charlie? I love his "smile."

Finally (I know, I'm jut full of questions today!) do you have any breed-specific books you would recommend? I've had a hard time finding anything worth buying. I'd love to find one with examples of past greats in the breed, (both dogs and breeding programs).
I got Charlie from a near by farm, two of their working ACDs accidentally bred. I'm not sure where his parents are from, but they have strong working lines.

Oh, and all ACDs "smile".;)

This is a book that I own:Australian Cattle Dogs - A Complete Pet Owner's Manual
It has a lot of great info and I'd recommend it to any ACD owner.:)

I know I've seen a few ACD books on Amazon, you might want to look there.
 

tempura tantrum

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#31
Thanks for the book reccomendation- I'll definitely head to Amazon straight away!

And I'm an absolute sucker for the ACD smile.

I had a chance to look at Agassiz and really liked what I saw. I'll definitely keep them in mind when I start getting really serious about adding a puppy. Thanks so much!
 

cowgurl6254

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#32
I just wanted to say that I sent that breeder an e-mail and asked her why they were breeding mutts. She got very nasty with me and blocked me. Some of you should e-mail her too...she is a pleasure to deal with :p
 

AusCatDogs_4Ever

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#33
Your welcome tempura. :)

~~~

Gee, it's funny how she is replying now. I had posted about her on an ACD group a while back and many of them sent emails, none have been replied to. Maybe she's getting sick of all the nasty emails and has finally snapped. :p I would have loved to read her reply to me. :D
 

Marc

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#34
I;m just joining now- would like to say hello

Hello- I see many posts on bad breeders - and such- so very sad to see such a great breed in the wrong hand :(


regards,
Marc -
 

mrose_s

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#35
I could understand them not being to standard if their workers, but most of those dgs really arn't in shape at all.
There is the australian stumpy tailed cattle dog which naturally has no tail. And I've seen a lot of ACD's with deformed tails (like busters for instantce lol)

Not a good breeder, I can't see any evidence she doesn anything with her dogs at all other than let them run around.
 
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#37
Australian Cattle Dogs

I am the proud owner of a 9 month old Cattle dog, Reddenblu's Agent Fenris. Having owned a couple of Purebred dogs in my lifetime, I had never felt so welcomed and at home as with the Redden's of Reddenblu Kennels. With going on 30 years of expertise with the acd's , their knowledge of the breed is unparrelled. We had considered importing a dog from Australia but after alot of research that the best breeders of Acd's are right here in Canada. They actaully introduced the breed to Finland in 1992, and their dogs can be found in the pedigrees of almost every great acd breeder across the globe. Joyce and Rebekka, have all of the neccessary testing done to ensure of no genetic defects, and you can trace the ancestry of all of their dogs, you can see the health of their dogs. We drove to Thunder Bay to pick up our dog, I have never been to a cleaner farm in my life, you can tell their lifes are the wellness of these dogs. I WILL buy another acd from these wonderful ladies, the experience was amazing, Fenny's papers came so quick and they even put together like a doggy baby book, with both parents pics, pedigrees, all copies of hip, eye and ear certification, a long with pictures of his dad's Westminster best of breed wins in 2004-and 2005 plus his wins in Finland etc. These people are great!!!!!! My dog is amazing so beautiful, smart and loving. He is the STAR PUPIL of his obedience class, according to Kevin George, his trainer. There is nothing this dog can't do. I truly believe he is the dog he is because of such great breeders who truly care about the breed, and doing better for them. Reddenblu's is in my opinion the BEST place to get your best friend from if you are looking for a real Cattle dog.
 

Zoom

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#38
So how much did they pay you for this? This is a super old thread. Congrats on getting a good dog.
 
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#39
:hail: LOVE Reddenblu! Your so lucky to get a pup from them.





I am the proud owner of a 9 month old Cattle dog, Reddenblu's Agent Fenris. Having owned a couple of Purebred dogs in my lifetime, I had never felt so welcomed and at home as with the Redden's of Reddenblu Kennels. With going on 30 years of expertise with the acd's , their knowledge of the breed is unparrelled. Reddenblu's is in my opinion the BEST place to get your best friend from if you are looking for a real Cattle dog.
 

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