2006 ATTS Breed Statistics

Miakoda does do a lot with her dogs.
She doesn't just aim for the internet (eventhough, THAT is where you target people. a community is only so much).

Both of you are awfully hostile, chinchow and Miakoda.

I was merely offering up what *I* do with my dogs and what *I* personally feels makes much more of a difference than preaching to people on a DOG FORUM, that LOVE dogs and most people here DO understand how misinterpreted the breed is, while still respecting the breeds heritage.

And just for the record, I don't TARGET anyone.

How was I hostile? I told you that she doesn't just go on the internet.

That's not hostile.
And I never said that going around a community does nothing, or that you did anything wrong.

And Miakoda stuck up for her breed. She wasn't being hostile, she's just had it with some people on this board. Every one of her posts is always filled with amazing information, first-hand information, that many of those particular people she is talking about lacks severely. And yet, they still try to make a case.

Sorry if you think that is hostile...but there is a lot more on this board in contrast that is ten times more hostile than that.

The thing is, nobody said anything negative about APBTs. The only critique was about the method and outcome. How does that say anything negative about the breed?? It jumped to my eye, at first I was all happy about the outcome of the Am Staffs...and then I saw how many less were tested compared to the APBT, for example. The list does not mean anything, it would only mean something if they had tested 100 dogs from each breed.

To call this whole forum ignorant, APBT hostile and whatever is was is simply ridiculous. Look at that other thread about the vids. Yes, very anti bully breed and pro BSL indeed from EVERY MEMBER of this forum

I think she just had a bad day and we got the vent. It's okay, everybody has moments like this. I just hope she catches the nerve and comes back, every else would remind me of high school.

Well, I'm very proud to say that Loki should be one of the hundreds who are counted among the passing. And that agitator got closer than 10 feet, while my honest little bulldog play-bowed at him. I wear my flawed TT and my piddly little CGC proudly, because its more than most dogs have.

Loki - UWP UCD 'PR' Matrix's I Defy Gravity CGC TT WDS (soon to be UWPCH and UAGI, too)

I have a feeling that I have offended you with my mention of cgc and ob titles not being a guarantee................I did not mean to diminish the accomplishment in any way shape or form............I hope that Orson can earn his one day too.
It was just pointed out to me yesterday on a different thread that a dog holding a CGC, and that was used in training class as "the friendly dog" also sent someone to the hospital...........that is all I meant by being no guarantee.
And I mentioned somewhere else that I do not own a bully breed, and I am a little naive as to the amount of discrimination that goes on with them, but I now how people act when I walk Orson down the isle of Petsmart..........and it doesn't always feel so good when they look at you a certain way.

Wow, Shetland Sheepdogs did absolutely awful! Only 63.7% passed! Most failed because of skittishness, no doubt.

Honestly, where in the test does it SAY EXPLICITLY that they are guarenteeing the dog's/breeds temperaments? It does not. And, it is a pretty difficult test of a dogs trust & obedience to it's handler as well as general breed disposition (although it lacks a reaction with other dogs, which I would like to see) that I know Gonzo wouldn't pass.

I think it's pretty interesting, and most of the breed results make sense to me. Of course it isn't the most complete temperament test possible.... do you expect testers to follow a dog & handler around for days and examine every little move they make? Ummmm no.

The only supreme temperament test can come from an observant, well-educated owner who knows their dog. Sure, there are occasions (very very rarely) when a dog "snaps" out of nowhere. But to a responsible owner who has spent time training their dog, there WILL be plenty of warning signs of aggressive or behavioral issues, even in a puppy.

However, I definitely think this test says a lot about the general temperament stability of different breeds, and to completely discount it is dumb. Try to go design the "perfect" temperament test, if you're really that unsatisfied with this one. :<

I'm not in the least surprised at the results for Shibas. Until just VERY recently, many breeders excused absolutely AWFUL temperaments, as being "typical of the breed." I once watched in horror as a judge put up a dog for WINNERS that repeatedly tried to bite him. Shibas are NOT supposed to be human aggressive. Dog aggressive? Sure. Aloof towards people outside of the family? Absolutely? But it is COMPLETELY against the nature of this breed to be anything worse than aloof towards humans.

I am proud to say however, that the majority of Shiba breeders today are doing a *much* better job with temperaments.

ACooper- I have to agree. In our class a dog with his CD, not a highly advanced OB title, but a title nonetheless attacked my dog.

Titles don't guarentee how a dog will act in certain circumstances, but the training involved in attaining that title usually helps.

Not offended, not really. I think the "those TT tests don't really mean anything" started on page 1, and I don't remember who started it. And in all honesty, they really don't mean anything if you're looking for a surefire way to judge a dog's temperament. (Most statistics mean precisely jack since they can be skewed any which way to show the compiler's intended result.)

But... they do mean something if you're looking for the owner that cares. This TT, that CGC, this hard-earned obedience title, that ribbon from the fun show; they all add up. If the intent becomes to seperate the worthy owners from the uninterested ones -- especially when it comes to those challenging breeds -- I think the little things need to be taken into consideration. Honestly, when I'm looking for a breeder to buy a puppy from, I look for those things. Don't tell me about a dog's looks or bloodline, show me what he has done, even if it isn't much. I feel like the accumulated small things have already put me a light year ahead of the majority of dog owners I encounter. That may come off as snobbish, but I need to prove that my dog is a worthwhile animal, and that by owning her, I'm enhancing the situation around me, rather than causing its deterioration.

So, yeah. This is something I feel strongly about. TTs aren't perfect. Neither are CGCs. Or UCDs. Or whatever! There is no perfect title. But show me a dog that has more than one in different areas, and there's a safe bet he's worth a look. JMO.

While the comments were a tad unreasonable and certainly do not describe the board as a whole, I see Miakoda's frustration.

There have been MANY pit bull threads of late and there have been a few ignorant people bashing them all to hell.

If someone were bashing lab/pointer mixes, I'd be pissed off, too.

If someone were bashing pugs, I bet some of our pug-owned members would be pissed off, too.

If someone were bashing dobermans, I bet some of our dobe-owned members would be pissed off, too.

Anyone getting the point? I certainly hope so by now.

Such is life.

We, unfortunately, will never get everyone to agree on an topic in life. It's just not going to happen. It sounds nice and in theory, we can work it all out. But in reality, well, there are ignorant people. There really are.

So...

You pit bull, lab/pointer, pug and dobe owners take the high road. Do the best with your breed and do the best as a dog owner and you will have accomplished a great deed.

Ignore the ignorant. By all means try to educate, but take the high road when you know the battle has been lost (with certain people, the battle will never be lost- fight it with all you have).

So, Miakoda, I hope you have not left. I hope you stay right here. I hope you read this.

I know exactly what you are referring to with your rant. But please do understand that there is a large majority of dog loving people on this board that care for all breeds, that have tolerance and education and a right mind about things. There really are.

And please, no more bashing the board. And, surprisingly, I'm going to leave your comment up (although another mod may decide to take it down) but I think some people need to read it. Some people deserve that message, but not everyone. And the people that don't, surely know who they are.

Some of those sample sizes are way too small to be credible, but the larger samples sizes are interesting and many are in the same range.

Some people hold these tests in high regard, and some of those same people have myth problems about certain breeds on that list. This test has changed people's ideas of several breeds.

I showed it to my cousin, about Chow Chows, Pit Bulls, and a few others. Redgardless of how many of them there are in the world, it was the high number that were tested, and the high number that passed that changed her mind about them. She finally understands now that there are bad eggs just like there are bad people, and it's those bad people who usually produce and own those bad eggs.

These tests might not mean anything to some people, but to those who can use it for good (since it can't really be USED for much but to examine) then they should. It worked for me and a few other people I know. Use it to your advantage. Don't give a long speach about how many dogs of each breed and yadda yadda. That's not really the point of it.

I'm just curious & I want HONEST opinions. If APBTs, ASTs, SBTs, & BTs did badly on these tests, can you honestly say you then wouldn't hold them in a higher standard? Because my feelings are that you would & then throw them in our faces left & right as more "proof".

Who is the "you" ??

We all have different opinions and and most of us are not that close-minded and ignorant enough to jump on any bandwagon for the sake of throwing anything up in anyones face...

Personally, I could care less about what breed anyone has, as long as they care for their animals and have some common sense about themselves and their animals..

Well said! :hail:

And I would like an answer to the, "who is the 'you'" question.... I'm sure Makoda means a general 'you'.. right?

I'm sorry, the "you" meant anyone in general. Sorry for the confusion.

I don't care about the tests one way or the other. One thing to keep in mind is that people doing these temperament tests are most likely responsible owners, so even if their dogs fail they will still keep them under control.

What idiot who never spends more than a minute with his dog every day is going to get it temperament tested? It's these neglected dogs that I feel are the biggest problem, and you have them in every breed.

The tests are a place to start, but I don't view them as conclusive proof that the majority of any breed is nice/nasty. It is, however, good to see that responsibly owned Pit-type dogs are just like any other dog.

Miakoda, you do make a great point. If APBT had failed miserably it probably would be thrown in our faces.

But personally, in my own mind, I know my little guy is not an evil, wild, human killer that is totally uncontrollable. I also know personally a few APBT's that are. *shrugs*

Everyone has at one time or another,myself included, hated on a breed because of a bad experience or a screwed media presentation.

I think there are some things about a breed that you can mostly say are true. But a dogs temperment as whole is totally unique. Sure, with Goldens, most of them are happy, care free friendly dogs, but what type of people own a Golden? What type of environment are the majority of Golden's raised in?

Questions and answers like those are what really matters to me. A Pitbull raised in a good dog environment full of different stimuli and plenty of training will most likely be an excellent companion or OB dog or agility etc. And for the pits that do have DA, in an environment like the one above, are probably worked with and the owner is more than aware and careful with the animal.