Bad Dog Trainer Beware !!

[Zoom]

We are a mostly PR oriented board. I think that's been made pretty clear by now. If you've ever got too much time on your hands, do a search on "prong collars" "Ceasar Milan" and the like and you'll get a VERY good idea of how this board leans as a majority. So when we have someone (with followers) who comes in and completely bashes "our" way of training as useless and only fit for soft idiots, well, how would you react? I can't tell you how many members we have that are "converts" from the old school way of training over to PR because of the results they got/saw and the connections they formed with their dogs.

 

[Dutchie]

There's a difference between defending something about yourself, etc. and being a complete ass.

I think everyone can agree with that statement. I can only be responsible for myself and my actions and the same goes for everyone else. I can tell you that some people like to argue just for the sake of arguing, simply to **** people off, or to get a desired reaction. Maybe that's what Richling did and people fell for it ... don't know. The world is full of a$$h0les, that's just the way it is.

 

[MelissaCato]

Funny how you both joined as Martin followers and don't expect to be labeled as such.

Funny how a brand newbie posted an insult thread about the man... whhhaooolaaaa followers... so don't expect not to be labled as such.

I just want to tell ya'll I had a great 3 days vacation, I read tons of threads, and I think this is a nice forum. Interesting debates and really nothing too insulting.

 

[Jammies]

I have no problem being labeled a "follower" of something I believe in and have seen proven time and again. Obviously if I trained with him for years I believe in the training. I have never attacked a trainer with another method on a personal level, which is what I feel has happened to Martin on many fronts and I feel that is totally unfair no matter what your opinion of his training methods. He was trained in PR and doesn't believe the results will hold up if the dog gets in a stressful or distracting situation ....that is really all it amounts to. He is very strong in his opinions and if he believes in something it will be with a ferocity and passion rarely matched by anyone.

 

[Dutchie]

He is very strong in his opinions and if he believes in something it will be with a ferocity and passion rarely matched by anyone.

Isn't that the truth ...

 

[blue]

I think everyone can agree with that statement. I can only be responsible for myself and my actions and the same goes for everyone else. I can tell you that some people like to argue just for the sake of arguing, simply to **** people off, or to get a desired reaction. Maybe that's what Richling did and people fell for it ... don't know. The world is full of a$$h0les, that's just the way it is.

Funny how a brand newbie posted an insult thread about the man... whhhaooolaaaa followers... so don't expect not to be labled as such.

I just want to tell ya'll I had a great 3 days vacation, I read tons of threads, and I think this is a nice forum. Interesting debates and really nothing too insulting.

I have no problem being labeled a "follower" of something I believe in and have seen proven time and again. Obviously if I trained with him for years I believe in the training. I have never attacked a trainer with another method on a personal level, which is what I feel has happened to Martin on many fronts and I feel that is totally unfair no matter what your opinion of his training methods. He was trained in PR and doesn't believe the results will hold up if the dog gets in a stressful or distracting situation ....that is really all it amounts to. He is very strong in his opinions and if he believes in something it will be with a ferocity and passion rarely matched by anyone.

So the three of you, if I had you as electrical apprentices, would have no problem with me smacking you, beating you around if you didnt do as I told you how the work was to be done?

 

[Jammies]

You truly feel someone should go to prison because of a training method you have no experience with and no knowledge of? This is just totally out of hand.

 

[Dutchie]

Not skirting the question you posed, but humans and dogs are not the same. Humans are verbal and dogs are physical (this appears to be consistent between both schools of thought, it's just the method itself that's under debate).

 

[showdawgz]

I have been thinking about hitting a do with a stick, especially a dog being trained in protection work. Wouldn't you be contradicting yourself and your training and causing more problems by "correcting" a dog with the same tool you use to cause agression? What if you went to hit the dog and it went to bite you? The dog would not be at fault because the dog is conditioned to show agression when the whip or stave is present in a threatening manner. Just something to think about.

 

[Zoom]

You truly feel someone should go to prison because of a training method you have no experience with and no knowledge of? This is just totally out of hand.

Who are you talking to?

 

[Jammies]

If my dog hears a firecracker, thunder, etc. and bolts out the door and goes running for the street where there is a car coming do you think he will stop if I hold up a treat or he is going to hear a clicker? Maybe it is better if will he stop because he has been taught in a manner that will make him listen to me above all distractions or fears and he trusts my judgement to keep him safe? That is the issue....what will work every time, in any situation and override the dog's fears and keep him safe.

Personally, if I were apprenticing with you and I was doing something that could cause me great harm even though I had been taught thoroughly otherwise....I don't think I would mind if you smacked me or whatever to save me. Would I want you to beat me....of course not, but I certainly want you to get my attention to the point that I would never do it again.

 

[Zoom]

If your dog has been properly conditioned on his recall, then yes, he should stop regardless of whether or not you have a treat or a clicker in your hand. Those things are merely training tools and are always phased out so that the command is solid. Do you always have to have a collar on your dog or your "stave" in your hand to get the dog to listen?

 

[Dutchie]

I have been thinking about hitting a do with a stick, especially a dog being trained in protection work. Wouldn't you be contradicting yourself and your training and causing more problems by "correcting" a dog with the same tool you use to cause agression? What if you went to hit the dog and it went to bite you? The dog would not be at fault because the dog is conditioned to show agression when the whip or stave is present in a threatening manner. Just something to think about.

I'm not the trainer, but here's my take on this. The main distinguishing factor would be that in obedience, the dog was given a command, they know they were given a command, and then they freely chose to not perform as asked, hence the correction (if even by the stave/stick/whatever ).

There aren't a lot of commands in protection work generally and by the time the decoys suit up, the dogs are fired up and ready to go ...nothing phases them at that point. If the stave is used for agitation, it can be merely for the noise it creates, or for a simple distraction. If contact is made with the dog, it's not at the same force as a correction ... much much lighter. I've seen dogs agitated with a foam water noodle simply because it provided as a distraction. Again, I am not the trainer, but that's my take on it. In the end, it's not the stave that's the threat, it's the decoy and that's what the dog focuses on.

 

[showdawgz]

I'm not the trainer, but here's my take on this. The main distinguishing factor would be that in obedience, the dog was given a command, they know they were given a command, and then they freely chose to not perform as asked, hence the correction (if even by the stave/stick/whatever ).

There aren't a lot of commands in protection work generally and by the time the decoys suit up, the dogs are fired up and ready to go ...nothing phases them at that point. If the stave is used for agitation, it can be merely for the noise it creates, or for a simple distraction. If contact is made with the dog, it's not at the same force as a correction ... much much lighter. I've seen dogs agitated with a foam water noodle simply because it provided as a distraction. Again, I am not the trainer, but that's my take on it. In the end, it's not the stave that's the threat, it's the decoy and that's what the dog focuses on.

Obedience and control is the number one priority in protection training. If I go to hit my dog with a stick to make it sit at that time, there is no doubt in my mind that I would get bit. Obedience, well my obedience, is done through drive. The dog cannot distiguish "protection work" (and I use that word lightly as most dogs are worked in prey drive) from obedience. If the dog is in drive, the dog is in drive, whether it be for a sleeve, a ball, a tug or a treat. Yes their drive levels can change, but they are still being worked in drive. The dog IS hit with the whip or stave when doing protection work and the strike has to be somewhat realistic. I have seen people correct their dogs with sticks and it turns into a really nasty bite, that the dog cannot be held accountable for, because its being worked in drive.

I am not saying taht the dog will view all sticks as a reason to bite. Children can wave sticks at my dogs all day and my dogs would see nothing wrong. But when doing any fomal training that uses drive you are at a risk of getting bit, by attempting to strike a dog.

 

[otch1]

Dutchie, Purdue, Jammies.... you are all undoubtedly very loyal students of Richling k-9 Training, Inc. I do commend you for that. The posts about Richling have become so disconcerting though. I know that there are children in the Richling family. It would take very little for the teenager in the family to log on and read this. There are also teenage Chaz members here. I take training very seriously. I take the instruction of minors even more seriously. Mr Richling did not answer my questions. So, are there two M. Richlings' both previously employed with the CPD, but one actually a housing authority officer not a k-9 officer. Is there a felony conviction on one of these gentlemen. Is one of them completely lacking in any real education or working experience in dog training. Is one of them actually a security guard having made up some of his background. Has one of them ever been investigated for animal abuse. Does it matter? Not to these students. Mr Richling said that he believes' he's "the best", his methods are the best and that many trainers are frauds. When you make these kinds of statements, you open yourself up to a lot of scrutiny. From the IRS, over a $200.000.00 income stated on the internet to the disapproval of the Association of International Dog Trainers were say a board member to read this. He clearly has every confidence that none of the statements he's made are false, that coming on this forum to discuss his methods was beneficial in his promoting his program and that his students will continue to support him. I can not argue with that.

 

[Saje]

Hm. My dogs are terrified of thunder too but they run TO me not away.

 

[showdawgz]

Hm. My dogs are terrified of thunder too but they run TO me not away.

Very good point!!! If your dog views you as their TRUE leader, they will seek protection and guidance from you.

 

[DanL]

Seriously Jammies, do you really think we need another Martin follower on this forum His other thread got locked because in his responses he was nothing but a rude cocky pr!ck.................. http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59638

I don't see why followers of any training method should not be welcome here. We can all learn from each other.

We have 2 extremes here. The positive only trainers and their followers and the hardcore adversive trainer and his followers. Both sides are passionate about their training methods, and both sides have attested that their method works. Then there are people like me who are in the middle, incorporating methods from both sides with (seeming) success.

I understand Martin has been rude in his replies, but some of the positive only people have been just as rude in some of the replies I've read, in a more coy manner, so what's the difference?

 

[Red_ACD_for_me]

I don't see why followers of any training method should not be welcome here. We can all learn from each other.

True, and that is fine Dan, but the least they can do is spread their wings and branch out into other threads on the forum so they don't just look like "followers" of MR One of them already did and she has a gorgoeus Dutch shepard

 

[Renee750il]

Hm. My dogs are terrified of thunder too but they run TO me not away.

Very good point!!! If your dog views you as their TRUE leader, they will seek protection and guidance from you.

Very good point . . . the ones I have had who were afraid of thunder all came to me even before the first crack. (Every now and then, if we had a particularly bad storm, Bear would take hold of my hand and lead me to the center of the house, lol . . . it upset him no end when I wouldn't stay there - very, very special dog )