Training something without wrecking something else

[Xandra]

I want to teach my dog to point on command.

I tried doing this by placing his paw in position, and clickering, but it didn't work very well.

I do have a special "command" that involves him pointing. It's what I call a "natural" command because I never taught it to him, it's just sort of a thing we developed (does that make sense?). If I put my finger to my lips and whisper "Romey Romey Romey! Shhh. Look. Shh." He'll go really quiet and run to where I'm looking with his tail wrenched up as high as it'll go, hackles raised. Very intense. And he'll do the pointing motion and look around until he locates whatever I want him to see. I've only used this for rare, uber rewards, like when we have raccoons or there's something largish in the bushes, or there's someone in the yard. So I don't want to spoil it, by lessening its significance, especially since it's not even really trained or properly reinforced. I'm pretty sure clickering in the middle of it and giving him food or play would just ruin it period.

Obviously he's aroused when he's in this state, but I just want him to point the ball and stuff like that. The whisper command is the only way I can get him to point of his own accord. *Very* rarely he'll point when I chuck a stick without him seeing it, and he'll point till he hears it crash. He's probably done that less than 20 times in his life.

So how do I do this??? Should I keep trying the paw positioning thing? He really isn't into it. My goal is for him to be actually thinking he's pointing, in the natural way dogs do. Not a mechanical, "if I do this action, I will get the ball" or whatever. My initial (and kinda vague) idea was to just train the motion and then introduce the "find the ___" aspect and try and get him to associate the mindset with the action, so it becomes a real natural point in his head. But it seems so contrived and I'm not really even sure that it would work like I want it to. It would be much better if I could reward a real point instead.

I apologize for what the length and incoherence lol. Now you know how the dog feels lol.

Any thoughts?

 

[Romy]

Does he have a "watch" command for when he's intense on something and you don't want him to actually engage it?

Okay, we own a pointer and this is what we've observed about the pointing behavior:

1. It's automatic. He was pointing birds at 6 weeks old, lol.

2. He ONLY points when he's intensely focused on something. INTENSELY. If it's just a "meh" thing, he won't point. If it's a bird, he'll point. A cat, he'll point. He even pointed our cattle, which was hilarious because he'd run up to Diego (the bull) give him nose kisses, and then....POINT! If his ball rolls through the fence and he can't reach it to fetch, he'll get totally frustrated, and point. etc.

Maybe you can get something he's really driven toward that is rewarding for him, you can add in a "watch" cue. Then couple the "watch" cue with a "point" body position. That point isn't instinctual and natural for a GSD, but I think pretty much anything is possible to train, and he's a smart dude.

Sorry the training part wasn't more detailed. I'm not sure exactly how to go about the actual shaping part. Maybe Dekka or someone will have an idea on how to do that best with a clicker.

 

[misfitz]

I think you could shape this, but it would be a long process. I was going to say, start with the paw, but after thinking about it, maybe it would be better to start by getting him to focus on an object. I would put this on cue and get it very strong - so he's very focused on the object, to the point where you touching his paw won't cause him to lose focus on the target object.

Once he's focusing, then add the paw lift. Rather than placing it yourself, try touching his toes or tapping lightly on the back of his leg. When he raises his foot, click. Gradually click for higher paw raises & paw position closer to what you want.

That's what I'd do, but I'm a total novice at this. So take my ideas with a grain of salt...

 

[Michael Morrisey]

"He even pointed our cattle, which was hilarious because he'd run up to Diego (the bull) give him nose kisses, and then....POINT!"

LMAO at that one! Karl the Shorthair pointed a box turtle once and I thought I'd choke from laughing!

The pointing instinct originates in the DNA; I suspect all dogs have it to one degree or another, but obviously it has been bred deeper into hunting dogs. A point is like a final, cautious step prior to attacking prey; many pointing dogs must be "whoa broke" to hold the point rather than taking that final step. "Whoa" breaking a dog is beyond the scope of this reply but I'd do some research on the technique if I were you, as you may find an interesting and fun way to work with your dog and accomplish your goal.

House Training a Dog

 

[Promethean]

If he shakes hands then you are half way there. All you need to do is move the behavior from your hand to an object.

If you are starting from scratch then you can teach targeting and holding with the nose.