Sar

[release the hounds]

It's the stupid in training part that's the key. There are an awful lot of stupid people out there.

and that's what certification should be for. can the dog do the work safely? it passes. It can't? it doesn't. Then it won't matter how or what was trained or by whom. It either can or can't.

Out of curiosity, what happens when the person they find is confused, scared, and tries to "defend" themselves/attacks the dog?

why would that matter to only some dogs bite trained and not ones that aren't? or is this a scenario that could potentially influence any dog? I guess my answer is you train for and test for that situation. What does the dog tell you? Bitework to do a sport can be taught purely contextually and outside of that a lot of dogs won't respond the same way.

You need the right dog to do this with, you need the right dog anyway, regardless of doing bitework or not. I think if you teach a find and come back and get me, that's what should happen provided you trained it. It probably won't happen that way if you take a police k9 that has been trained to go on long over terrain tracks thru woods and streets and find and bite bad guys

That's cool. What would they do if you sent them to find a guy in scratch pants and sleeve and you weren't there with them when they found him?

well if they have a sleeve they have nothing to worry about But I've tracked past helpers in gear and they don't even pick up their heads. But I am on the end of a leash too.

I think if someone tried hard enough with my dogs they would get their attention if they were out away from me in gear, but then again, my dogs aren't trained to go find someone and come back and get me either. But coming across someone in the woods wouldn't trigger a hold and bark either without some coaxing from the helper. at least I don't think they would, i guess i have never tried anything other than keeping bitework bite work and tracking tracking and OB, ob. It would be interesting to see what they'd do.

The problem with combining bitework and SAR is that if one of those components is lacking in any way, you're putting people's lives at risk. Think of all the unsound dogs you've run into through the years while doing bitework. Now imagine if their owners decided they really wanted to do SAR in addition to whatever they managed to accomplish in bitework. Do you not see a train wreck in the making?

I can definitely see the wrecks on the horizon, but that's in any case. people can "say" they do SAR, lots of people do, though there dogs will never be certified or part of any team on any calls. Same as sport work. Lots of people "do" X-sport, though they never compete or hardly make it to training

BUT, that's where testing and certification come in. anybody can claim anything to anyone about their dogs. But, if the testing or certification process is complete, there shouldn't be any issues. any dog that can't go out and find someone without getting aggressive at a potential threat, rather than go back and find it's handler shouldn't pass.

or they should change how the dog is used. Myself? I see no use in having a dog out of my visual range, but we don't have 100K acre areas we'd be searching either. We're divided up in 40 acre plots with roads all over and search areas, though big, are broken up.

There's a lot of potential for a lot of dogs to do SAR work in different ways and still be effective and safe. The fact it may or may not do bitework shouldn't be a determining factor in how it is used or if it can be though IMO. Because dogs learn context and are very good about it. And if they dog can perform the tasks under pressures and testing does anything else really matter?

 

[Romy]

Okay, my answers are in red because quoting is getting really complicated.

and that's what certification should be for. can the dog do the work safely? it passes. It can't? it doesn't. Then it won't matter how or what was trained or by whom. It either can or can't.

why would that matter to only some dogs bite trained and not ones that aren't? or is this a scenario that could potentially influence any dog? I guess my answer is you train for and test for that situation. What does the dog tell you? Bitework to do a sport can be taught purely contextually and outside of that a lot of dogs won't respond the same way.

It could potentially influence any dog (such as the one that was washed for being too defensive. The only training she ever got was SAR training.) and partly goes back to having a temperament suitable for SAR.

Please correct me if I'm wrong because I don't have background in training for bite sports, but when you're looking for a good candidate isn't it an asset for the dog to have a strong defense drive? Does it vary where some dogs are running off strong defense and others going off play/prey drive? Or is it some combination of the two? I would not consider a dog with strong defense drive to be a good candidate for SAR work. Strong play/prey drive is good though.


I think if someone tried hard enough with my dogs they would get their attention if they were out away from me in gear, but then again, my dogs aren't trained to go find someone and come back and get me either. But coming across someone in the woods wouldn't trigger a hold and bark either without some coaxing from the helper. at least I don't think they would, i guess i have never tried anything other than keeping bitework bite work and tracking tracking and OB, ob. It would be interesting to see what they'd do.

It would be neat to test it just to see how they react.

BUT, that's where testing and certification come in. anybody can claim anything to anyone about their dogs. But, if the testing or certification process is complete, there shouldn't be any issues. any dog that can't go out and find someone without getting aggressive at a potential threat, rather than go back and find it's handler shouldn't pass.


Part of the problem people run into is liability. If an evaluator passes a dog and that does goes on to injure somebody on a live search, people are going to get sued. Not just the owner of the dog, but folks are going to ask, "who is the idiot evaluator who let this dog go on live searches in the first place? What idiot group let a dog like this join?"

If the dog has a history of being involved in bite sports, that is an awful lot of ammunition to hand a litigious person in an already crappy situation. I suspect this is a big part of the reason why many groups do not allow dogs who have been involved in bite sports.

Add that to situations like my friend had with the K9 attacking her at a large and well attended regional event, people come away from that with a very bad taste in their mouth about the compatibility of SAR and any kind of bitework.

Even just training and not being on the search team, the other team members don't want to risk being injured themselves if a dog gets too defensive.


or they should change how the dog is used. Myself? I see no use in having a dog out of my visual range, but we don't have 100K acre areas we'd be searching either. We're divided up in 40 acre plots with roads all over and search areas, though big, are broken up.

If you live in an area with no underbrush and good visibility, that would probably work. Around here. . . well, I'll dig up some pictures I took of Charlie in our grazed pasture and you'll see what I mean as far as terrain and plants. In most places you're searching for lost folks you maybe have 5 feet of visibility around you. Anything working on lead gets so tangled they're literally useless. The only time I've seen the formal tracking team called out is for evidence searches where they've got a smallish established search area and are looking for things like bone fragments. I've never ever seen them called out on a live search.


There's a lot of potential for a lot of dogs to do SAR work in different ways and still be effective and safe. The fact it may or may not do bitework shouldn't be a determining factor in how it is used or if it can be though IMO. Because dogs learn context and are very good about it. And if they dog can perform the tasks under pressures and testing does anything else really matter?

Again, a big part of it is liability. Theoretically, a dog that does bitework should have success being trained as a working service dog and get paired with a handler, and have public access and be fine. However, that is considered extremely inappropriate and no reputable service dog training organization would ever in a million years consider training a dog that has done bitework of any kind.

Something to also keep in mind is that you will never ever find someone on a live find who is in a normal state of mind. Ever. They will always be confused and messed up to some degree, either from a preexisting medical condition, dehydration, or substance abuse (an astonishing number of tweakers manage to get lost around here. -.- ). The dog really has to be incredibly stable and social with people, and completely fine with people who are not in a rational state of mind, who are moving erratically, who smell like hard drugs, who might have developmental disabilities, all things that have a strong possibility of spooking a lot of normally stable dogs. Ideally, that dog should LOVE people to the exclusion of all else. Including all those types of people I just listed. You want a dog that doesn't realize bad people exist.

There was a dobe on our team who had that quality. He loved people. He didn't need to be rewarded for finding someone, because the find was the reward all on its own. If he found anybody he'd go ballistic with happiness. One time he kind of lost it and rolled me down a hill with his nose doing a super full body wiggle (before he was reliable at retrieving his handler) That's the kind of temperament and drive we screen try to screen for.

 

[Kootenay]

Okay, my answers are in red because quoting is getting really complicated.



Again, a big part of it is liability. Theoretically, a dog that does bitework should have success being trained as a working service dog and get paired with a handler, and have public access and be fine. However, that is considered extremely inappropriate and no reputable service dog training organization would ever in a million years consider training a dog that has done bitework of any kind.

Something to also keep in mind is that you will never ever find someone on a live find who is in a normal state of mind. Ever. They will always be confused and messed up to some degree, either from a preexisting medical condition, dehydration, or substance abuse (an astonishing number of tweakers manage to get lost around here. -.- ). The dog really has to be incredibly stable and social with people, and completely fine with people who are not in a rational state of mind, who are moving erratically, who smell like hard drugs, who might have developmental disabilities, all things that have a strong possibility of spooking a lot of normally stable dogs. Ideally, that dog should LOVE people to the exclusion of all else. Including all those types of people I just listed. You want a dog that doesn't realize bad people exist.

There was a dobe on our team who had that quality. He loved people. He didn't need to be rewarded for finding someone, because the find was the reward all on its own. If he found anybody he'd go ballistic with happiness. One time he kind of lost it and rolled me down a hill with his nose doing a super full body wiggle (before he was reliable at retrieving his handler) That's the kind of temperament and drive we screen try to screen for.

This is all really good info to have. Onyx is fine around people in public, but she doesn't love them (mostly ignores them), and she does actually have pretty high defense drive. Definitely food for thought.

 

[release the hounds]

It could potentially influence any dog (such as the one that was washed for being too defensive. The only training she ever got was SAR training.) and partly goes back to having a temperament suitable for SAR.

Please correct me if I'm wrong because I don't have background in training for bite sports, but when you're looking for a good candidate isn't it an asset for the dog to have a strong defense drive? Does it vary where some dogs are running off strong defense and others going off play/prey drive? Or is it some combination of the two? I would not consider a dog with strong defense drive to be a good candidate for SAR work. Strong play/prey drive is good though.

For starters I don't really like to use the term "defensive drive" I've come across too many definitions for the term to find it useful for myself. To me, "defensive" is a part of "fight or flight" when flight isn't an option. When I think of drive and a lot of some type of "drive", defensive isn't something I want. Strong nerves to stay in a fight? yes confidence? yes, the ability to discern threat from non? I like a moderate threshold for that myself.


In an ideal world, any dog would instantly know any "real" threat from one that isn't, but none of us live in that world. But i've seen dogs with weaker nerves described as having great "defensive drive". To me, they have low thresholds and too many things are threatening to them. That doesn't mean it's a horrible dog, they can be great depending on the use, SAR definitely not one of them But then they wouldn't be good for SAR regardless if they had bite training or not.

I also don't debate as to which type of dog is best for work, because a lot of combinations of nerve, drive and thresholds can all make for fantastic working dogs. A good friend of mine always said, " I never heard a bad guy say, That bite didn't hurt, it was only a prey bite" and it's true. Some of the most badass dogs I know will bite you purely for "fun" They have great active aggression, because of how it was trained, but their nerves and drive are so great not much is really threatening to them.

I prefer those kinds of dogs, one I have zero need for a dog with a hair trigger. and if there is a threat, I can activate them on it because of our training and I know they are just looking for a chance to bite because they love to do it. It's fun and mostly prey.

If I don't activate them on it, they'd have to be one incredibly threatening person, making overt attempts and hurting me or my dogs to get much more than a watchful eye.

Anyway, that probably makes things clear as mud huh? But I agree, any dog that reacts easily to a "potential" threat, probably isn't a great candidate for SAR regardless of bitework history. But there are lots of variations of dogs that are great for sport or work, they could handle SAR with no problems from bite training.

If the dog has a history of being involved in bite sports, that is an awful lot of ammunition to hand a litigious person in an already crappy situation. I suspect this is a big part of the reason why many groups do not allow dogs who have been involved in bite sports.

Add that to situations like my friend had with the K9 attacking her at a large and well attended regional event, people come away from that with a very bad taste in their mouth about the compatibility of SAR and any kind of bitework.

Even just training and not being on the search team, the other team members don't want to risk being injured themselves if a dog gets too defensive.

I agree that it is a problem in general in any society where those with the least amount of knowledge seem to have the greatest and loudest opinion on something and influence those that work for the deepest pockets and make the rules, I mean the politicians that work for the people

But it is like that with everything it seems these days. One the surface, a dog with bite training would seem like a bad candidate to go out and look for people to those that don't really understand what's happening. All that really matters is, Does the dog posses the qualities of a good SAR dog, and then train accordingly.

If it does have those qualities, training bitework in the context of sport shouldn't have any effect on it's search work. It's so contextual that a lot of that training wouldn't even come to mind in a real search situation for the dog.

The difference in that is your example of the police k9. We do a lot to broaden that context for the dog. Some of that includes, long tracks over varied surfaces where they are confronting a "bad guy" at the end. If your bitework training consists of scenarios like that, well don't be surprised if your dog reacts like you trained it to But in the context of IPO? its a directional send to a blind, very contextual and if that's where you keep it, you can have a great competition sport dog, and one that is as safe as any other in the field for SAR work.

But those with the least amount of knowledge do seem to have the greatest amount of influence these days.

I used my patrol and drug scenario earlier in the thread, but another one is an IPO 3 and has done SAR work, but now is a FEMA certified urban and rubble search dog.

I was his helper for IPO on weekends and during the week when we'd do Police dogs, He'd come out for his search training and I'd be hiding in all sorts of places without equipment and I'd toss balls for his rewards. Because he was more of a urban and rubble dog, he barked at finds. I was buried sometimes, so it wasn't go find, and go get the handler, it was find and bark.

So we have a dog that was sent in to bark and then bite me in sport training, and in "real life" training was sent to find me and bark, but not bite and I never felt in any danger from that dog. You can tell what a dogs intentions are after you've stood in front of enough of them. He understood perfectly what was going on. When he found me in a blind, he was looking for a fight and to bite me. When he found me on searches, he was looking for his ball to be thrown.

He wasn't being sent out a mile away from his handler either so the handler was nearby to remind him of his job and the search areas were definitely more contained, but a very good SAR dog none the less. But he was also tested thru that in certification as well so it was no surprise how he'd react either and in the end that's all that "should" matter. but what "should" be rarely is how things are.

If you live in an area with no underbrush and good visibility, that would probably work. Around here. . . well, I'll dig up some pictures I took of Charlie in our grazed pasture and you'll see what I mean as far as terrain and plants. In most places you're searching for lost folks you maybe have 5 feet of visibility around you. Anything working on lead gets so tangled they're literally useless. The only time I've seen the formal tracking team called out is for evidence searches where they've got a smallish established search area and are looking for things like bone fragments. I've never ever seen them called out on a live search.

They don't necessarily need to be on lead, just within visual and voice range. I'm confident any dog I've done bitework with will NOT bite someone if doing a different task, especially if I am there to remind them of that task with a simple verbal of what they're supposed to be doing. No matter how threatening or confused a find may be.

However, that is considered extremely inappropriate and no reputable service dog training organization would ever in a million years consider training a dog that has done bitework of any kind.

I know a couple that have National Association for Search and Rescue has and SUSAR.