Let me start off by saying that I am soooo proud of Peanut today. She learned "come" and "lay" in about twenty minutes and all it took was a little free time and some bread. My question is this, how do I get her to perform a command without showing her the reward first? Being a corgi, shes EXTREMELY food driven and won't listen unless she sees an immediate payoff. Once there is food presesnt and in her view, she will usually do her best to listen. I want her to listen and obey commands thouroughly without question or concern. Shes a smart dog, so its hard for me to predict her next move all the time. Any suggestions?
Question-Treats
- Thread starter nedim
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T
The trick is to keep them guessing. NEVER show them the treat and then tell them what you'd like them to do. The reward is only ever present AFTER they did as they were asked. If you were using luring, once they are doing it every time with a lure, start using your hand as the lure without the treat. It may take them a bit longer, but once they get it THEN they get the treat. Don't be discouraged if it takes your dog a bit longer to figure out how to do something without the lure.
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Hi nedim -
I'm just going to talk some general dog stuff here. Some will be appropriate to you and some might not.
Dogs, like people, work for certain motivations. A dog that is food motivated is wonderful to work with because the "pay-off" is easy. Use of treats is a very effective way to motivate a dog.
But dogs also learn what we teach them, and if we teach them that the treat will be visible to them then they're going to take that as part of the cue. If we look at it in a human way - let's say someone came to you, held out a five dollar bill and said "spin around!" and when you did the spin they handed you the money. And then they did it again - held out the $5, told you to spin, you did the spin and they handed the money. Let's say you did this five times.
Then they come back to you but don't hold out a five - they just say "spin around". What are you going to do? I'd be willing to bet you'd say "well, where's the $5??" before you'd be willing to spin. This is completely normal and it's the person holding the money who taught you to expect the money to be visible before you spin. It's not YOUR fault you think that way.
Now, back to the dogs. When it comes to treat training, there are a lot of people out there who say "well, it doesn't work! my dogs won't do anything unless they SEE the treat!". My response to that is "you taught them to expect to see the treat". It's not the dog's fault, it's a training flaw on the part of the trainer.
So how do we work around this? Well, first of all, luring a behavior with a treat is not teaching the dog the behavior. It's merely getting them to do the physical motions of the behavior but the conscious thought of what they're doing is just not there because they're focused on the food and not on the behavior. I don't consider that a dog has actually learned a behavior until they can do it correctly several times in a row, with a single command for each time and no visible treats, lures or enticements of any kind. If a dog is still following a lure, they haven't learned the behavior at all.
Luring is an excellent beginning tool. But it has to be used very sparingly. If I'm going to teach my dog a down from a sit, I'll use a treat the first couple of times just to get the muscles moving in the right way. I'll put the treat at the dog's nose, slowly lower it to the ground and slightly away from the dog, then praise and give the treat when the dog's belly hits the ground.
But after just a few times, I know I have to stop using the lure or the dog will just think that the lure is part of the cue and it won't actually learn the behavior. So, since I've been applying a hand signal, I put the food up on a table or in a pocket and I do the same gesture (hand in front of the dog, moving down and forward) without the food in it. I may hold my hand in such a way that it APPEARS the food is there, but the food is not in my hand.
When the dog follows that, I immediately praise when the belly hits the floor and I reach for a piece of food to give to the dog. IF the dog gets up when I reach for the food, that's fine! What I wanted was the behavior of laying down (which happened) and I praised when that happened, so the food can come a few seconds later without a problem.
At this time I haven't used the "down" command at all - just following my hand signal. I continue to do it this way, hand signal but no food in my hand, until the dog is consistently laying down with the signal and it's become a very smooth movement. I usually find that the dog starts anticipating the down command a bit and I can back off of the hand signal (maybe just start the downward motion and not have to go clear down to the floor and forward like I did at first). Keep in mind this can take days or even weeks. Speed is not important - we have a lifetime with our dogs - what's important is that the dog is understanding what you want.
Now, once the behavior is consistent on a simple hand signal with no food in the hand, I start adding in the "down" command. I say "down" and give the signal and then I praise and reward when the dog lays down. After a bit the dog starts to anticipate the behavior on the word and I can start to fade the hand signal. At this point I usually say the word and then wait a second before giving the signal to let the dog think about what I want. When the dog starts going down on the verbal, I usually up the praise and reward (jackpot a bit) so that they realize this was something really great.
Patience is a huge asset in training dogs. Just like us humans, dogs need an opportunity to think about things at times. If a dog is in a learning stage, and you give a command and the dog looks at you as if to say "hmm, don't have a clue what you mean!" then it's a good time to stand there quietly and wait to see if your dog can figure it out. There will be times when the answer isn't immediate - just like for us! I've been through a lot of schooling over the years (BA, EMT-II, Vet Tech certification) and I've taken a LOT of tests along the way. And there were times I looked at a question and thought "oh hell, I know this but I can't think of it!". And after a minute or so it came to me. Dogs do the same thing at times. They will go blank and it's not something they are doing on purpose nor is it something they should be punished for. At the very most, they just don't earn the reward.
I love using rewards for my dogs. It makes them into very eager participants in the activities we do. Our dogs tend to be limited by what we can manage to explain to them - but given enough time and patience, most dogs can learn a large variety of behaviors without too much trouble.
Enjoy your training!
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
I'm just going to talk some general dog stuff here. Some will be appropriate to you and some might not.
Dogs, like people, work for certain motivations. A dog that is food motivated is wonderful to work with because the "pay-off" is easy. Use of treats is a very effective way to motivate a dog.
But dogs also learn what we teach them, and if we teach them that the treat will be visible to them then they're going to take that as part of the cue. If we look at it in a human way - let's say someone came to you, held out a five dollar bill and said "spin around!" and when you did the spin they handed you the money. And then they did it again - held out the $5, told you to spin, you did the spin and they handed the money. Let's say you did this five times.
Then they come back to you but don't hold out a five - they just say "spin around". What are you going to do? I'd be willing to bet you'd say "well, where's the $5??" before you'd be willing to spin. This is completely normal and it's the person holding the money who taught you to expect the money to be visible before you spin. It's not YOUR fault you think that way.
Now, back to the dogs. When it comes to treat training, there are a lot of people out there who say "well, it doesn't work! my dogs won't do anything unless they SEE the treat!". My response to that is "you taught them to expect to see the treat". It's not the dog's fault, it's a training flaw on the part of the trainer.
So how do we work around this? Well, first of all, luring a behavior with a treat is not teaching the dog the behavior. It's merely getting them to do the physical motions of the behavior but the conscious thought of what they're doing is just not there because they're focused on the food and not on the behavior. I don't consider that a dog has actually learned a behavior until they can do it correctly several times in a row, with a single command for each time and no visible treats, lures or enticements of any kind. If a dog is still following a lure, they haven't learned the behavior at all.
Luring is an excellent beginning tool. But it has to be used very sparingly. If I'm going to teach my dog a down from a sit, I'll use a treat the first couple of times just to get the muscles moving in the right way. I'll put the treat at the dog's nose, slowly lower it to the ground and slightly away from the dog, then praise and give the treat when the dog's belly hits the ground.
But after just a few times, I know I have to stop using the lure or the dog will just think that the lure is part of the cue and it won't actually learn the behavior. So, since I've been applying a hand signal, I put the food up on a table or in a pocket and I do the same gesture (hand in front of the dog, moving down and forward) without the food in it. I may hold my hand in such a way that it APPEARS the food is there, but the food is not in my hand.
When the dog follows that, I immediately praise when the belly hits the floor and I reach for a piece of food to give to the dog. IF the dog gets up when I reach for the food, that's fine! What I wanted was the behavior of laying down (which happened) and I praised when that happened, so the food can come a few seconds later without a problem.
At this time I haven't used the "down" command at all - just following my hand signal. I continue to do it this way, hand signal but no food in my hand, until the dog is consistently laying down with the signal and it's become a very smooth movement. I usually find that the dog starts anticipating the down command a bit and I can back off of the hand signal (maybe just start the downward motion and not have to go clear down to the floor and forward like I did at first). Keep in mind this can take days or even weeks. Speed is not important - we have a lifetime with our dogs - what's important is that the dog is understanding what you want.
Now, once the behavior is consistent on a simple hand signal with no food in the hand, I start adding in the "down" command. I say "down" and give the signal and then I praise and reward when the dog lays down. After a bit the dog starts to anticipate the behavior on the word and I can start to fade the hand signal. At this point I usually say the word and then wait a second before giving the signal to let the dog think about what I want. When the dog starts going down on the verbal, I usually up the praise and reward (jackpot a bit) so that they realize this was something really great.
Patience is a huge asset in training dogs. Just like us humans, dogs need an opportunity to think about things at times. If a dog is in a learning stage, and you give a command and the dog looks at you as if to say "hmm, don't have a clue what you mean!" then it's a good time to stand there quietly and wait to see if your dog can figure it out. There will be times when the answer isn't immediate - just like for us! I've been through a lot of schooling over the years (BA, EMT-II, Vet Tech certification) and I've taken a LOT of tests along the way. And there were times I looked at a question and thought "oh hell, I know this but I can't think of it!". And after a minute or so it came to me. Dogs do the same thing at times. They will go blank and it's not something they are doing on purpose nor is it something they should be punished for. At the very most, they just don't earn the reward.
I love using rewards for my dogs. It makes them into very eager participants in the activities we do. Our dogs tend to be limited by what we can manage to explain to them - but given enough time and patience, most dogs can learn a large variety of behaviors without too much trouble.
Enjoy your training!
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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Hi nedim -
To me, it would depend on the level of training I'm at. Generally, if I thought the dog had consistently shown that they knew the sit before that, I would say the command once and just wait and watch them. Sometimes the dog has to process things a bit. If the dog was focused on me and yet didn't sit, I'd just turn away and remove my attention from them for a minute (this is a kind of correction, believe it or not). Then I'd turn back, smile and say "sit" again. If the second time the dog doesn't do it, I'd gently help the dog into the sit (not so much pushing the rump down, but maybe cupping my hand under the dog's rump to encourage it into a sitting position). Then I'd immediately praise and treat. If the dog bounces back up when I praise, that's fine. It's the motion of sitting that I'm working on at first. Holding the sit will come later.
Sometimes you have to help them through the learning process by giving the command and then helping them into position. But any time you put hands on (some work entirely hands-off, which is fine too) you want that to be gentle. You don't want discomfort associated with the process of training.
In all honesty, dogs that are trained with a lot of positive reinforcement can't wait to do things for you - and in fact, are good at offering all SORTS of behaviors until they find the right one! They have found that training is so positive and fun that they are right there wanting to do things with you. If you give a command to a dog like that and they don't do it, you can pretty much guarantee that they don't have the behavior down really well (or at least not associated with the cue or command yet). These dogs WANT their rewards, so if it's something simple like a sit or down or whatever else little trick you've been teaching, you can be assured that if they know what you want they'll do it in order to get the reward. So patience is the key. Let the dog think. Sometimes when you're teaching a lot of different things, the dogs get them mixed up (just like a little kid does).
You're on the right step! Good luck!
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
To me, it would depend on the level of training I'm at. Generally, if I thought the dog had consistently shown that they knew the sit before that, I would say the command once and just wait and watch them. Sometimes the dog has to process things a bit. If the dog was focused on me and yet didn't sit, I'd just turn away and remove my attention from them for a minute (this is a kind of correction, believe it or not). Then I'd turn back, smile and say "sit" again. If the second time the dog doesn't do it, I'd gently help the dog into the sit (not so much pushing the rump down, but maybe cupping my hand under the dog's rump to encourage it into a sitting position). Then I'd immediately praise and treat. If the dog bounces back up when I praise, that's fine. It's the motion of sitting that I'm working on at first. Holding the sit will come later.
Sometimes you have to help them through the learning process by giving the command and then helping them into position. But any time you put hands on (some work entirely hands-off, which is fine too) you want that to be gentle. You don't want discomfort associated with the process of training.
In all honesty, dogs that are trained with a lot of positive reinforcement can't wait to do things for you - and in fact, are good at offering all SORTS of behaviors until they find the right one! They have found that training is so positive and fun that they are right there wanting to do things with you. If you give a command to a dog like that and they don't do it, you can pretty much guarantee that they don't have the behavior down really well (or at least not associated with the cue or command yet). These dogs WANT their rewards, so if it's something simple like a sit or down or whatever else little trick you've been teaching, you can be assured that if they know what you want they'll do it in order to get the reward. So patience is the key. Let the dog think. Sometimes when you're teaching a lot of different things, the dogs get them mixed up (just like a little kid does).
You're on the right step! Good luck!
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
That was very informative.
Any advise on how to get my dog to pee on command? She is very obedient in every other way, but she takes a year to take a pee. I've tried treats, but when she's out on a walk, she rejects the treat and isn't interested in me for praise. She's too preoccupied. I can't find a motivation.
Any advise on how to get my dog to pee on command? She is very obedient in every other way, but she takes a year to take a pee. I've tried treats, but when she's out on a walk, she rejects the treat and isn't interested in me for praise. She's too preoccupied. I can't find a motivation.