Must be Titled

[LizzieCollie]

Hmm, I never posted my opinions as fact, they are just that, opinions. Im not a strong supporter of conformation, like other people have said I'd rather SEE a dog do what he was bred to do, not just see him run around a ring and have a judge say that he SHOULD be able to do what he was bred to do because he meets standards.

And YES that poodle was agressive, maybe not extremely agressive but definately snappy, I saw the show on TV when my dad taped it and it the news people (im not sure what they call the people that you hear speaking on tv about the show are called) but they clearly said the dog was snappy. Now I dont know why they didnt kick the dog out but it wasnt.

Again im not posting my thoughts as facts.

I owned a Shih Tzu in my later childhood who was a prime example of her breed. This girl was gorgeous and the true description of what a Shih Tzu should be. Only she was way too shy to show, and absolutely hated to be in the ring. She got quite a few wins before we pulled her out because she wasnt enjoying it.

I was more pleased with her obedience and therapy work than I ever would have been if she achieved a CH title. Just my OPINION

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

LizzieCollie, conformation means "practically, well a LOT!" sorry! Form follows function and the form needs to be correct in order to function. Yes, the dog should be able to do its job, but I also want it looking like its breed while doing it! Don't you?? Otherwise, why have breeds? Now, where do you get this? "Maybe in the old days it did but now there are too many judges that care only for pedigree."....Umm, when entering the show ring, you do not hand the judge a copy of your dog's pedigree to peruse < g > The judge rarely if ever knows the pedigree of the dog he is examining. No self-respecting judge would put up a "horrible example of the breed" because of "some awsome [sic] champions in his/her background." Please, it REALLY IRKS me when posters come up with this stuff...do you make this stuff up as you go along? Really now.

Tell that to the American Show bred GSD's (how many times do we have to go back to the same thing, ). Put my German Working line GSD against one of those "show" GSD's my dog would kill the other dog in whatever task you give it. Yes, GSD's do have a slight slant in the rear for a reason but as usually America has exxagerated it. You give them an inch and they go a mile. A comformation GSD (american bred) CANNOT work in those conditions. They lack the physical features as well as drive and pocession. Almost all working/herding dogs are divided because people get too into conformation looking at the physical features and ignoring the temperament of the dog. Just because a dog LOOKS right and conforms to standard does NOT mean it can work, because their "structure" was created for a purpose. When you take every show dog and put them up to those who are not in shows because they are "structually defective" (aka the actual working dogs) and put them to a task and the show dog can perform the task with as much drive and ability then I will applaud the breeder of that dog who cares for the WHOLE breed not just the looks.

* I am not trying to offend anyone, I am referring to those breeds that have a DRASTIC division between working and show dogs as does the GSD. *

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

sorry to add in my uneducated two cents but I am also a believer that titles are not as important as to what the dog can DO. I am a strong believer that conformation means practically nothing. Maybe in the old days it did but now there are too many judges that care only for pedigree. Even if the dog is a horrible example of the breed they will only think 'hey this dog has some awsome champions in his/her background'

I saw a Poodle at a dog show when I was younger whos handler had hold the dogs muzzle shut when the judge examined him/her because if not that dog would have torn the judge to bits. Do you think the judge cared? No probably because of a great pedigree that dog placed in the top 3. I have seen bully breeds that will smack a judge with their tail because they are so happy to be in there and arent they supposed to be vicious (not)?

Poodles are held by the muzzle to avoid mussing the coat. I hold my dogs by the muzzle during the body exam to steady the dog, keep the head pointing forward (my dogs are friendly, and might want to turn around and lick or visit with the judge....judges have NO way of knowing what dogs are or are not looking around over their shoulder in a friendly manner.....one of the FIRST things you learn when showing dogs is to control the head during the body exam).

And no, bully breeds are NOT supposed to be vicious. They are, in fact, supposed to be indiscriminately jovial and friendly with all people. They CAN be dog/animal aggressive.

 

[JennSLK]

We hold the muzzle on the dogs I have handled because they somtimes turn and look at the judge. This also helps to keep them straight.

It does NOT mean they are ready to tear a judge to shreds.

 

[sportingdogs]

Maybe in the old days it did but now there are too many judges that care only for pedigree. Even if the dog is a horrible example of the breed they will only think 'hey this dog has some awsome champions in his/her background'

The above quote DOES sound like you are stating these things as fact, LizzieCollie.

So the dog you saw was on TV. It is hard to judge something that you experience one dimensionally, don't you think? Even if the Poodle in question WAS snappy...you cannot base a judgment on the entire dog fancy on one incident. There were undoubtedly circumstances you nor the TV announcer knew about. But again, even so, one dog, one judge, one incident.

To the person who chimed in about GSD's..okay, I respect your opinion..not my breed; I do understand what you are saying. Please know that I am neither saying that Conformation is the ONLY thing..it is not..but it is an important PART of responsible breeding. I own a breed that works..VERY WELL. These same working, trialing dogs also excel in the show ring. That is why my breed is NOT split! If everyone ignored the breed standard and its proof in the show venue...my breed would suffer....I could see taller and taller, more pointery dogs, fiddle fronts, bad heads...etc....gone would be the one breed, one type. Thank doG for now my breed is safe and doing well.

 

[Giny]

LizzeCollie I just had a few questions for you.

Just curious, how else would you prove that certain breeds are breed worthy? You had a Shih Tzu and I'll use that as a quick example; how else can someone deem this breed as an excellent specimen of its kind in order to continue its line through breeding? Its purpose in life was to be a lap dog, I don't know of any events as of yet to prove that they are doing their job. If so, my 3 dogs would have that title hands down.

Sure you can have titles in obedience though not most common in this breed but personally I think they have to prove they are true to there standard and I see no other option then conformation. An owner stating that they are and excellent example of their breed does not sit right with me. True, titles on a dog aren’t enough to say he/she’s breed worthy but it’s a beginning.

I was more pleased with her obedience and therapy work than I ever would have been if she achieved a CH title. Just my OPINION

Also, just curious, how were you able to have a dog, too shy for show, become a therapy dog? Therapy work is much more evasive then showing.

 

[LizzieCollie]

Please know that I am neither saying that Conformation is the ONLY thing..it is not..but it is an important PART of responsible breeding.

This is right on cue. Conformation should not be everything, but it does play a big part. The thing is that SOME breeders concentrate more on standard and less in working ability. I mean who cares if a dog is the IDEAL dog of his breed, one that meets standards to the last hair if the dog cant work.

I think the ideal dog would be one that can win best of breed on Saturday and be out in the work field on Sunday. There needs to be a balance of the two. Lizzie is not show quality by a long shot. Why? because her breeder has concentrated on work drive. You look at Lizzie and she definately LOOKS like a Collie but then you start to see the little things (i.e she is not a big puffball like show Collies are ) I was actually told on another forum that she looks like a dog breed by a BYB

An ideal breeder IMO should have a good balance between work and conformation. I know some breeds (like the GSD) are divided into two groups: work and show. Same breed but when you look at the two groups you can tell the difference between them big time

 

[stevinski]

yer giny, you just made the perfect point!

all the people who say a dog shouldnt be judged on what it looks like and going round a ring and all that stuff, and say that they should be judged on working, and stuff.

whatabout toy breeds, they were bred for companionship?

 

[stevinski]

An ideal breeder IMO should have a good balance between work and conformation

any good breeder would have a balance between work and conformation,
for example while looking for my future sheltie show prospect puppy, i've been looking for a kennel that trials in conformation AND agility or obediance or both and anyone that does herding is a bonuss

 

[LizzieCollie]

Giny:

Sasha was too shy for the show ring for a number of reasons: She was not good around dogs of her same size (scared stiff of them, but loved big dogs for some reason). She just couldnt handle 'the crowd' She did MUCH better as a therapy dog because she could get one on one time with the people and her favorite past time was snuggling with you so it suited her quite well.

With her therapy work she never had to be part of the 'big' crowd for a long period of time, usually upon arrival when she was greeted by the nurses but the rest was one on one.

Shih Tzus are described as having an 'arrogant or proud' way of being, yet being totally sweet. Thats not how its worded in the standard, just my abbreviation. Sasha did not have that temperment, she could be quite shy at times, not at all an outgoing dog unless she wasnt dealing with too much stimuli.

Thats one of the reasons why she was never bred, along with a few others.

 

[LizzieCollie]

You know as I was posting the whole 'A good dog should not be judged solely on conformation but what it can do' thing I started to think about the 'lap dogs' and how would they prove they can do what they were bred to do.

Maybe we should start a lap contest? the pup that stays the longest on your lap and allows you to pet it without getting bored and jumping off, wins! Lol sorry im really stumped here

 

[stevinski]

Maybe we should start a lap contest? the pup that stays the longest on your lap and allows you to pet it without getting bored and jumping off, wins! Lol sorry im really stumped here

i think your onto something!

 

[Giny]

Maybe we should start a lap contest? the pup that stays the longest on your lap and allows you to pet it without getting bored and jumping off, wins! Lol sorry im really stumped here

Ha, that would be an...mmm...interesting event.

Thank you for clarifying the therapy dog question.

 

[wolfsoul]

Whomever emailed you back from the CKC apparently doesn't know the difference between a title and a certificate

I doubt that, as this person sent me a word file that had the entire list of CKC recognised titles. CGN was among them.

CKC Approved Event Titles

Title Description

CH Champion (Conformation)
CH (ALT) Champion (Altered)
FTCH Field Trial Champion
AFTCH Amateur Field Trial Champion
FT/AFTCH Field Trial/Amateur Field Trial Ch.
NAFTCH National Amateur Field Trial Ch.
NFTCH National Field Trial Champion
JFTR Junior Field Trial Retriever
QFTR Qualified Field Trial Retriever
WS Working Spaniel
CD Companion Dog
CDX Companion Dog Excellent
UD Utility Dog
OTCH Obedience Trial Champion
OTCHX Obedience Trial Champion Excellent
MOTCH Master Obedience Trial Champion
GMOTCH Grand Master Obedience Trial Champion
PCD Pre-Companion Dog
CDI Companion Dog Intermediate
TD Tracking Dog
TDX Tracking Dog Excellent
UTD Urban Tracking Dog
UTDX Urban Tracking Dog Excellent
FCH Field Champion
FCHX Field Champion Excellent
WC Working Certificate
WCI Working Certificate Intermediate
WCX Working Certificate Excellent
FDJ Field Dog Junior
FD Field Dog
FDX Field Dog Excellent
JH Junior Hunter
SH Senior Hunter
MH Master Hunter
GMH Grand Master Hunter
DD Draft Dog
DDX Draft Dog Excellent
BDD Brace Draft Dog
BDDX Brace Draft Dog Excellent
Page 2

AGN Agility Novice
AGI Agility Intermediate
AGX Agility Excellent
AGMX Agility Master Excellent
AGNJ Agility Novice Jumper
AGIJ Agility Intermediate Jumper
AGXJ Agility Excellent Jumper
AGMXJ Agility Master Excellent Jumper
AGMCH Agility Master Champion
AGNS Agility Novice Selected
AGIS Intermediate Agility Selected
AGXS Agility Excellent Selected
AGMXS Master Agility Excellent Selected
AGNJS Agility Novice Jumpers Selected
AGIJS Agility Intermediate Jumpers Selected
AGXJS Agility Excellent Jumpers Selected
AGMXJS Agility Master Excellent Jumpers Selected
HT Herding Tested
HS Herding Started
HI Herding Intermediate
HA Herding Advanced
HTT Herding Tested-Tending
HST Herding Started-Tending
HIT Herding Intermediate-Tending
HAT Herding Advanced-Tending
HC Herding Champion
HX Herding Excellent
SDS Stock Dog Started
SDI Stock Dog Intermediate
SDA Stock Dog Advanced
DC Dual Champion (Herding)
JE Junior Earthdog
SE Senior Earthdog
ME Master Earthdog
CGN Canine Good Neighbour

CKC Recognized Versatility Event Titles

Title Description

SD Sled Dog
SDX Sled Dog Excellent
SDU Sled Dog Unlimited
CG Certificate of Gameness
EWC Earth Working Certificate
WRD Water Rescue Dog
SHD Scent Hurdling Dog
SHDX Scent Hurdling Dog Excellent
SHCH Scent Hurdling Dog Champion
FH Schutzhund Tracking Test
SCH I Schutzhund (Level 1)
SCH II Schutzhund (Level 2)
SCH III Schutzhund (Level 3)
AD Schutzhund Endurance Test
BH Schutzhund Companion Dog
WH Schutzhund Watch Dog
IPO I International Performance Level 1
IPO II International Performance Level 2
IPO III International Performance Level 3
SCH A Schutzhund title

 

[Julie]

Just curious....... To those of you that know.
What is the difference between a title and a certificate? Why is one more important than the other? Why is one looked at as a "go ahead" for breeding and one looked at as nothing more than "oh that's just a certificate"?
Please go into detail as I (as a certified dog owner) believe a certification is something to be proud of also. I also believe that certification of certain events proves your dog worthy.

 

[RD]

Julie, let's take herding for example... Dogs can get a herding instinct certification if they will chase sheep around a pen. They don't have to show good form, they can bite the sheep and terrorize them, or they can just sniff idly at them. That's enough to earn them the certificate.
The Canine Good Citizen/Canine Good Neighbor certificate is simply acknowledgment that the dog in question has basic manners and can handle everyday situations without freaking out. I think this is a great test, however I do not believe it proves anything regarding the temperament or ability of the dog. As an example - my nervy, fear-aggressive, antisocial Papillon passed the "practice test" for his CGC with flying colours. So he's trained enough to control himself, w00t! That doesn't mean there is something extra special to acknowledge about him. Now, if he got certified as a narcotics detection dog, he'd be worthy of a second glance.

I agree that certain certifications help to prove a dog worthy. Being certified as a SAR dog, for example, is a big deal and proves that the dog has the training, the guts and the soundness for this job. CGC doesn't prove much at all.

I think it depends on the certification...

 

[bubbatd]

The main thing is a long pedigree that show titles in the background at least. This proves good lines and reponsible breeding. Yes, I bred to untitled dogs, but only through good pedigrees. You really have to know the breed and backgrounds ..... the main thing at this point is health testing of everything and getting to know the breeder. I would never buy a pup with no titles in a 3 generation pedigree or no proof of ALL testings. AKC registration means nothing.

 

[wolfsoul]

It also depends on the person hosting the test. Visa's HIC test was done by the top stock dog trainier and border collie breeder in BC. She would not certify a dog that just showed interest. The dog had to show interest, show a good amount of control, and be able to take commands (such as "down" or "stay") while herding. She told me that Visa was the best Belgian she's ever seen and she's told me that I one day I should compete. She is an amazing instructor and she had a dogs come in 3rd and 6th out of 160 runs at the Calgary stampede this month. I will compete in herding one day, but for now I take her word that my dog is a great worker, and I hold Visa's HIC with value because she got it from someone who doesn't just hand it out to every Tom Dick or Harry.

Now the CGN test we took on the other hand, was the most lax thing ever. There was no way Visa would have passed if it were me in charge. You'll get plenty of people that are very strict when hosting a CGN test, but these people were not strict at all.

Everything has to be taken in to account -- the world of dogs is not black and white as it seems.

 

[bubbatd]

I feel the TDI title worthwhile when children and elders are involved.

 

[Julie]

RD,
I agree...... it depends on the certificate. Now what about titles how does a title "prove" a dog, are they all equally hard to obtain? I would imagine one title would be easier to obtain than others? Should a person look for certain titles if considering breeding? I am really not trying to be a smarta$$, I am truly interested in knowing what papers/titles would really "prove" a dog for breeding? (Not even considering health aspects in my question) In everyones opinion.....

The main thing is a long pedigree that show titles in the background at least. This proves good lines and reponsible breeding. Yes, I bred to untitled dogs, but only through good pedigrees. You really have to know the breed and backgrounds ..... the main thing at this point is health testing of everything and getting to know the breeder. I would never buy a pup with no titles in a 3 generation pedigree or no proof of ALL testings. AKC registration means nothing.

Grammy,
I somewhat respectfully disagree with that. My Shiloh has an excellent pedigree and many FC AFC, NAFC FC AFC, in her pedigree. Her parents had all the health testings.......eyes, heart, hips. She is what I thought the perfect lab, when we got her as a pup. She is a great retriever - no second guess there, but she is overly hyper, and dog aggressive. (She has brutally attacked 2 other dogs).

Now, Charlie.... I rescued him from a terrible breeder, he is actually the only pup that survived out of his siblings thru the winter. He has no titles in his pedigree, no hunting at all in his pedigree. Purely a backyard dog from backyard parents........BUT given the opportunity to be taught and learn he is a great retriever also.....but not overly hyper, and not dog aggressive. If I were to consider hunt tests or field trials with either dog.......I would definately do it with Charlie. He also makes a much better family dog, because I can include him in all the activities that Shiloh has to be left out of.

So I guess it all depends on what is important to each of us as individuals.