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Hi Doberkim -
You asked a couple of questions on another thread and didn't really get an answer to them, so I'd like to address them for you (hope you don't mind).
I can tell you how I've worked through this in the past and it may work for you. First you have to be positive that your dog understands the concept of "stay", so I'm going to assume you've been through a structured set of exercises that gradually built up the time and distance of the sit and down stays.
I had an open level dog (my first chow) who started breaking her out of sight stays. It was frustrating and unfortunately back then I didn't know to stop showing her until I worked through the problems - we went a full summer season (I think 11 shows) where she consistently got worse and worse to the point of laying down on the sit-stay before I even got out of the ring. And back then I initially started correcting her for it - pops on the corrective collar, etc. It wasn't until I stopped and really looked at the situation that I realized I was creating a worse mess by adding stress to it.
So I took the entire winter off and re-trained the stay. It was very effective and the following summer she held her out of sight stays in 13 consecutive shows (earning placings every time, including seven firsts). What I did was go back to on-leash with a flat collar. I wanted the ability to add mild corrections but to keep the stress low at that time. I worked her by herself at first as I didn't want to affect anyone else's dog. I asked a friend to help me with the training. I would tell Kylee "stay", step out in front of her (a foot or two away, facing her) and then my friend would come over to her and tell her "down" (not using her name, just the command and signal). When Kylee laid down, I would say "eht eht!" and then raise her back up to a sit. It wasn't a jerk up - simply putting her back into position. Then I would say "stay" again and step away again. My friend would give her the command and I would again verbally correct and put her back into position if she broke. If she DIDN'T break, she received lots of praise and treats.
When she became consistent with holding the stay even though she was told "down" by other people, I started moving a bit farther from her and extending the time before she received her praise and treats. I also started doing the stays in areas of higher distraction. I added in distractions too .. putting things around her, putting a leash around her shoulders with a light weight on it to make her push her shoulders up some to hold it, etc. When she was really doing well with any distractions I added, I started going out of sight again. I also started working her with a group of dogs too.
Now, this doesn't completely address your problem as Kylee was not breaking and coming toward me, she was only laying down on the sit-stay. In your case, I would have other people call your dog - not by name, just with command and signal - as well as give the down command. With my dogs I don't worry about their need to respond to other people so it was fine with me to teach them to not respond to those commands, but you would have to take that into consideration if you chose to try this.
I found that by doing this in a less-stressful way, it solidified her response without making her scared or reactive. And I had to keep my frustrations out of it, which is not always easy when you're preparing for competitions.
Did he go through a structured retrieve training? I do a positive retrieve where the dog is rewarded for first looking at the dumbbell, then moving toward it, then touching it, then mouthing it, then taking it. While many dogs like their dumbbells, they consider them more like toys and that gives them more options to drop the dumbbell. A structured set of exercises makes the dumbbell more "serious", if that makes sense.
It sounds like he basically needs to learn to do certain movements while holding the dumbbell. I would start with him learning to go from a stand to a sit without dropping it. One thing you can try is using a "double leash". This can be made by taking a section of soft rope or even a leash you already have, and putting a snap at both ends of the leash (one on the handle end as well as on the regular snap end). Then you attach both snaps to his collar, preferably several inches apart. Position the collar so that the leash comes out from beneath his neck. Have him take the dumbbell and then gently bring the leash (both sides) up so that the leash slides softly along each side of his muzzle and just inside the bell sections of the dumbbell. This is NOT a correction and if he acts confused or sensitive to it you may need to do some desensitization work without the dumbbell - just sliding the leash along both sides of his muzzle and rewarding so that he gets accustomed to the feel of it.
What the double leash does is it helps hold the dumbbell in his mouth. Let me describe it again so that hopefully it makes sense (it's MUCH easier to show than explain!). The leash is attached in two areas on the collar, several inches apart. The collar is adjusted so that the leash comes out from either side of his throat area. You're facing your dog and he has the dumbbell in his mouth. You're holding the leash in both hands, one hand to the right and one to the left, several inches apart. When you raise your hands, the leash slides against his lips, just inside the wide parts of the dumbbell, resting against the bar and helping to gently push the dumbbell into his mouth if he tries to spit it out.
Now, with his head up and the leash helping to hold the dumbbell, ask him to sit. You may need to repeat this command and that's okay, because the criteria is really high at this point (strange to him). Encourage him to sit, keep your voice happy and light, and when he sits praise the heck out of him! Then ask him to release the dumbbell, lower the leash so he can spit it out, and reward accordingly.
This is a really effective method but like I said, depending on the sensitivity of your dog you may need to work with just the feel of the leash at first.
Hope this all helps! Good luck -
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
You asked a couple of questions on another thread and didn't really get an answer to them, so I'd like to address them for you (hope you don't mind).
I can tell you how I've worked through this in the past and it may work for you. First you have to be positive that your dog understands the concept of "stay", so I'm going to assume you've been through a structured set of exercises that gradually built up the time and distance of the sit and down stays.
I had an open level dog (my first chow) who started breaking her out of sight stays. It was frustrating and unfortunately back then I didn't know to stop showing her until I worked through the problems - we went a full summer season (I think 11 shows) where she consistently got worse and worse to the point of laying down on the sit-stay before I even got out of the ring. And back then I initially started correcting her for it - pops on the corrective collar, etc. It wasn't until I stopped and really looked at the situation that I realized I was creating a worse mess by adding stress to it.
So I took the entire winter off and re-trained the stay. It was very effective and the following summer she held her out of sight stays in 13 consecutive shows (earning placings every time, including seven firsts). What I did was go back to on-leash with a flat collar. I wanted the ability to add mild corrections but to keep the stress low at that time. I worked her by herself at first as I didn't want to affect anyone else's dog. I asked a friend to help me with the training. I would tell Kylee "stay", step out in front of her (a foot or two away, facing her) and then my friend would come over to her and tell her "down" (not using her name, just the command and signal). When Kylee laid down, I would say "eht eht!" and then raise her back up to a sit. It wasn't a jerk up - simply putting her back into position. Then I would say "stay" again and step away again. My friend would give her the command and I would again verbally correct and put her back into position if she broke. If she DIDN'T break, she received lots of praise and treats.
When she became consistent with holding the stay even though she was told "down" by other people, I started moving a bit farther from her and extending the time before she received her praise and treats. I also started doing the stays in areas of higher distraction. I added in distractions too .. putting things around her, putting a leash around her shoulders with a light weight on it to make her push her shoulders up some to hold it, etc. When she was really doing well with any distractions I added, I started going out of sight again. I also started working her with a group of dogs too.
Now, this doesn't completely address your problem as Kylee was not breaking and coming toward me, she was only laying down on the sit-stay. In your case, I would have other people call your dog - not by name, just with command and signal - as well as give the down command. With my dogs I don't worry about their need to respond to other people so it was fine with me to teach them to not respond to those commands, but you would have to take that into consideration if you chose to try this.
I found that by doing this in a less-stressful way, it solidified her response without making her scared or reactive. And I had to keep my frustrations out of it, which is not always easy when you're preparing for competitions.
Did he go through a structured retrieve training? I do a positive retrieve where the dog is rewarded for first looking at the dumbbell, then moving toward it, then touching it, then mouthing it, then taking it. While many dogs like their dumbbells, they consider them more like toys and that gives them more options to drop the dumbbell. A structured set of exercises makes the dumbbell more "serious", if that makes sense.
It sounds like he basically needs to learn to do certain movements while holding the dumbbell. I would start with him learning to go from a stand to a sit without dropping it. One thing you can try is using a "double leash". This can be made by taking a section of soft rope or even a leash you already have, and putting a snap at both ends of the leash (one on the handle end as well as on the regular snap end). Then you attach both snaps to his collar, preferably several inches apart. Position the collar so that the leash comes out from beneath his neck. Have him take the dumbbell and then gently bring the leash (both sides) up so that the leash slides softly along each side of his muzzle and just inside the bell sections of the dumbbell. This is NOT a correction and if he acts confused or sensitive to it you may need to do some desensitization work without the dumbbell - just sliding the leash along both sides of his muzzle and rewarding so that he gets accustomed to the feel of it.
What the double leash does is it helps hold the dumbbell in his mouth. Let me describe it again so that hopefully it makes sense (it's MUCH easier to show than explain!). The leash is attached in two areas on the collar, several inches apart. The collar is adjusted so that the leash comes out from either side of his throat area. You're facing your dog and he has the dumbbell in his mouth. You're holding the leash in both hands, one hand to the right and one to the left, several inches apart. When you raise your hands, the leash slides against his lips, just inside the wide parts of the dumbbell, resting against the bar and helping to gently push the dumbbell into his mouth if he tries to spit it out.
Now, with his head up and the leash helping to hold the dumbbell, ask him to sit. You may need to repeat this command and that's okay, because the criteria is really high at this point (strange to him). Encourage him to sit, keep your voice happy and light, and when he sits praise the heck out of him! Then ask him to release the dumbbell, lower the leash so he can spit it out, and reward accordingly.
This is a really effective method but like I said, depending on the sensitivity of your dog you may need to work with just the feel of the leash at first.
Hope this all helps! Good luck -
Melanie and the gang in Alaska