Confused about something....

Sweet72947 · Jun 11, 2006

I've been reading a lot of posts on here lately about how you shouldn't correct a dog for growling/warning as that will cause them to forgo the warning and go right for the bite. I am confused about something though. What do you correct to tell a dog agression isn't appropriate? Are you supposed to wait until the dog tries to bite to correct? I don't have a dog with this problem, I am just curious. Thanks in advance to anyone who replies to this thread!

cowgurl6254 · Jun 11, 2006

i wish someone would answer your question..i've been wondering the same thing for awhile now. My puppy is growling a lot and I'm not sure what to do to prevent him from being too aggressive.

PWCorgi · Jun 11, 2006

First off, I'd like to say that I am in no way a trainer, these are just my observations, which may be wrong.

I think that you are not supposed to correct it, but prevent it from happening by setting boundaries that the dog understands. Making yourself alpha I think is a big part of that, or reinforcing that you are alpha.

Fran27 · Jun 11, 2006

That's a very good question. I think it depends at what they are growling. If they are growling at something other than you, I think it's fine to stop them. If they are growing at you though, it usually makes things worse.

PWCorgi · Jun 11, 2006

For some things yes, such as a squirrel or rabbit. But if it is another dog and they are dog-aggressive it can make it worse also.

dr2little · Jun 11, 2006

Sweet72947 said:

If you look at it from the dog's perspective, it may make a bit more sense.

A dog growls/warns when something is making him aggitated, uncomfortable, affraid or anxious. Correcting the growl does not address why he growled in the first place, it only tells him that he's not allowed to warn or communicate his discomfort. What often happens is that if he is corrected for trying to communicate his discomfort, he only learns not to warn...what's he left with -often times he's forced to react as the other option has been taken away.
Canines ability to warn prior to attack or reaction will often cause the trigger to retreat and most times that's really all the dog is trying to accomplish.

As far as when to correct, the better question would be - how do I desensitize him to the trigger...or change his thought on what's making him growl.
With respect to a dog growling at a human, usually an adult is the one to correct. When this happens, not only does the dog never really learn to assess leadership from what made him growl (child, stranger) but unless everyone can and does correct in the same way with the same force, the source of the growl usually becomes the recipient of the reaction, however serious.
On the other hand, if the dog is taught leadership based on who controls all of his resources, even a child can be seen as a leader.
Most dogs will only tolerate physical punishment for so long. Physical correction is also a risky business because while the person delivering the correction may be very clear on what is being corrected, the dog often associates the correction with the presence of the trigger. Dog sees child and lunges, dog gets jerked into position, dog sees child as the source of the punishment. With desentisization, dog sees child and recieves rewards prior to lunge (at threshold distance), done often and consistently the dog associates the presence of the child with rewards (BONUS)!
I hope this is a little more clear. I just came home from teaching classes all day and evening so I'm dog tired (pardon the punn) and not exactly on my best game right now. Please ignore the spelling/grammer....too tired to bother proofing..

Zoom · Jun 11, 2006

Great thread, you beat me to it! I've been wondering the same thing.

Sweet72947 · Jun 12, 2006

Thanx dr2little, that makes things clearer.

mydogswork · Jun 12, 2006

I do not agree at all with those who say we should not correct a dog for growling!! Nip it in the bud!! I don't care what my dog is growling at I will not tolerate it. The only time my dogs are allowed to show aggression is during training when they are responding to an actual threat. Why would anyone want to let their dogs know that acting aggressively for no apparent reason is acceptable because that is what you are doing when you don't correct. I do not agree at all that if you correct that the dog will go stragiht to biting next time. If I had a dog who showed aggression to people for no reason it would be dead anyways. I don't tolerate fear based aggression whatsoever. Dog aggression I will work with though but IMO allwoing a dog to show aggression(growling) by not correcting it you are telling the dog that it is acceptable. My dogs are dominant but not aggressive but **** right they would get a correction if they tried something or even reacted to another dog challenging them. If either one of them growled at me, I am sorry but I would knock their blocks off. I do like a dog with attitude (dominant) but I will in know way allow a dog to be dominant over me.

Growly~Pants · Jun 12, 2006

mydogswork said:

I do not agree at all with those who say we should not correct a dog for growling!! Nip it in the bud!! I don't care what my dog is growling at I will not tolerate it. The only time my dogs are allowed to show aggression is during training when they are responding to an actual threat. Why would anyone want to let their dogs know that acting aggressively for no apparent reason is acceptable because that is what you are doing when you don't correct. I do not agree at all that if you correct that the dog will go stragiht to biting next time. If I had a dog who showed aggression to people for no reason it would be dead anyways. I don't tolerate fear based aggression whatsoever. Dog aggression I will work with though but IMO allwoing a dog to show aggression(growling) by not correcting it you are telling the dog that it is acceptable. My dogs are dominant but not aggressive but **** right they would get a correction if they tried something or even reacted to another dog challenging them. If either one of them growled at me, I am sorry but I would knock their blocks off. I do like a dog with attitude (dominant) but I will in know way allow a dog to be dominant over me.

GREAT POST!!!

GSDlover_4ever · Jun 12, 2006

mydogswork said:

I totally agree!!! If my dog so much as growled at me he would get a nice correction from me. There is NO WAY I will allow a dog to growl, if you allow that behavior THEN they will move to biting. But once they realize agressive behavior is unacceptable they will stop. I guess us working dog people dont know what were talking about, because were ALWAYS wrong (I see you are new to this forum, and apparently everyone says corrections are a no-no, PUH-LEASE) but we arent dealing with no little fufu dog. How many Sch or police dogs have you guys trained (those opposing corrections)? Just wondering.

Fran27 · Jun 12, 2006

mydogswork said:

I do not agree at all with those who say we should not correct a dog for growling!! Nip it in the bud!! I don't care what my dog is growling at I will not tolerate it. The only time my dogs are allowed to show aggression is during training when they are responding to an actual threat. Why would anyone want to let their dogs know that acting aggressively for no apparent reason is acceptable because that is what you are doing when you don't correct. I do not agree at all that if you correct that the dog will go stragiht to biting next time. If I had a dog who showed aggression to people for no reason it would be dead anyways. I don't tolerate fear based aggression whatsoever. Dog aggression I will work with though but IMO allwoing a dog to show aggression(growling) by not correcting it you are telling the dog that it is acceptable. My dogs are dominant but not aggressive but **** right they would get a correction if they tried something or even reacted to another dog challenging them. If either one of them growled at me, I am sorry but I would knock their blocks off. I do like a dog with attitude (dominant) but I will in know way allow a dog to be dominant over me.

We'll see if you change your mind when you punish your dog for growling and he bites you. It has happened to my husband. But I guess it will be easier in this case to just put the dog down instead of actually have to WORK on the issue, huh?

Saje · Jun 12, 2006

Wow, so, really, dogs aren't allowed to communicate with us? I'd much rather my dog growl at me then bite me! Taking away the warning just doesn't seem smart but to each their own I guess.

GSDlover_4ever · Jun 12, 2006

Fran27 said:

Actually pets get put down before working dogs because certain things are not liked by pet owners that can be done to re-essert your leadership. If my dog bit me, I wont say what I would do, but I can almost gurantee he wont do it again.

I guess your husband cannot read body language well. I can always tell if a dog is going to bite whether it growls or not.

mydogswork · Jun 12, 2006

Let my dog bite me if I correct it. It will get corrected even harder. I am not afraid of being bit and I would NEVER put a dog down for being dominant. I like dominant dogs, just won't allow them to be dominant. I said I have no tolerance for dogs biting out of fear, domiance is a whole different ball game.

whatszmatter · Jun 12, 2006

Saje said:

This is what's wrong with that advice, correcting for aggression, when done correctly is going to extinguish the behvior faster and be much more permanent.

I"m sorry, but most of this, "you'll just take away the warning and such" is either done by people that haven't done it correctly or are pushing a positive only agenda. For every bite you can give me because we've corrected out the "warning" I can give you 10 for people that didn't quite de-sensitize enough and ended up with a bite as well.

growlling in a puppy is one thing and can be handled in a different matter, aggressive responses to children by adult dogs is a whole other scenerio. I"m kind of sick of this pulling out bits and pieces and saying why correcting your dog is so bad, but i'm going to put that hat on for a minute and reverse it.

So by the standards that seem to be acceptable in here, You can't have the dog on a leash because when the lunge at the child it could restrain them, and result in a "pop" on the leash, and that will damage and make your dog afraid of you right? Sounds silly, but that seems to be the attitude sometimes

But for the sake of arguement, you do put a leash and collar on so when the kid walks by the dog lunges it gets a pop when it reaches the end of the leash, but then sits there straining and barking and lunging at the kid, then what?? He's getting nothing but frustrated and now wants to bite that kid even more.. Still no correction?? So by using the logic that seems prevelant here, this dog will learn that kids are a source of frustration and their aggression will only escalate, much like being chained up in the yard. Only you don't want to communicate with your dog, that his aggression is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

you call and call and hold out food, what do you do when the dog is completely locked on something a whole lot more interesting than you?? let them bark themselves or get sick of the aggression?? Just let them keep communicating their displeasure more??

Its fine if you want to go to park and have kids off in the distance and distract your dog with play or whatever and get used to being around different things, but you can't control every situation all the time.

Chances are you're going to come face to face with a situation like a kid running out form behind a car and your dog will react (if you're having these problems in the first place). What are you going to do? Just let the dog react and act aggressively?? Well, guess what, he just won and reinforced in his mind what he already liked to do, act agressively towards children.

There's a time and place for everything, dogs learn from lots of things, some lessons are learned faster better and for longer using something that seems to get nothing but bad press in here. Since dogs learn using positive and negative experiences i'm going to use both when the sitations present themselves. I guess I just don't have a moral conflict in my mind about it.

dr2little · Jun 12, 2006

GSDlover_4ever said:

What does your EGO have to do with training a dog?

You make some pretty broad assumptions for someone who knows nothing about what I do. The dogs I train range from , little fuzzy creatures, your average medium and large breed family dog, problem pitbulls (I'm called when a real issue crops up), feral dogs(you want to talk aggressive and unpredictable) and YES, "working" dogs who were screwed up by people who USE and ABUSE THEM for SPORT?????

. And no, I'm not referring to everyone involved with working dogs.
I DO BITE CASE INVESTIGATION, many resulting from people using the very techniques that you have recommended. Again, the results can be devestating. Have you had to measure puncture wounds on a childs face? Believe me, if you had you would understand why this kind of advise and mentality infuriates me!!!
If you were to do your research, most police dog training organizations have evolved with their training as well. As far as police dogs and Sch...are you a police officer, or a member of a police academy training program? If not, why are you training police dogs? As for Schutzhund training, after seeing your level of canine knowledge, it worries me to think that you are actually involved in this level of training (which I do know all too well).
I'm not sure what experience/education you have but mine is an open book.

AGAIN, for the sake of creating an arguement on this thread, those with no real knowledge would risk influencing the original poster in the wrong direction.

WHY....WHAT DO YOU GAIN, HAVE YOUR SAY SOMEWHERE ELSE...You are of course entiltled to your "opinion"...but why chose this post?? Stick to doing what you do with your own small circle, when it comes to advise about something as serious as this, please take your "input" to another thread.
I will not post again on this thread. My advise to the original question stands as does my offer of help via PM's.
I hope that if you have a beef with what I do or you feel the need to promote your kind of training, you'll RESPECT the needs of the original poster in mind ...and start your own thread.

dr2little · Jun 12, 2006

whatszmatter said:

This is what's wrong with that advice, correcting for aggression, when done correctly is going to extinguish the behvior faster and be much more permanent.

I"m sorry, but most of this, "you'll just take away the warning and such" is either done by people that haven't done it correctly or are pushing a positive only agenda. For every bite you can give me because we've corrected out the "warning" I can give you 10 for people that didn't quite de-sensitize enough and ended up with a bite as well.

growlling in a puppy is one thing and can be handled in a different matter, aggressive responses to children by adult dogs is a whole other scenerio. I"m kind of sick of this pulling out bits and pieces and saying why correcting your dog is so bad, but i'm going to put that hat on for a minute and reverse it.

So by the standards that seem to be acceptable in here, You can't have the dog on a leash because when the lunge at the child it could restrain them, and result in a "pop" on the leash, and that will damage and make your dog afraid of you right? Sounds silly, but that seems to be the attitude sometimes

But for the sake of arguement, you do put a leash and collar on so when the kid walks by the dog lunges it gets a pop when it reaches the end of the leash, but then sits there straining and barking and lunging at the kid, then what?? He's getting nothing but frustrated and now wants to bite that kid even more.. Still no correction?? So by using the logic that seems prevelant here, this dog will learn that kids are a source of frustration and their aggression will only escalate, much like being chained up in the yard. Only you don't want to communicate with your dog, that his aggression is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

you call and call and hold out food, what do you do when the dog is completely locked on something a whole lot more interesting than you?? let them bark themselves or get sick of the aggression?? Just let them keep communicating their displeasure more??

Its fine if you want to go to park and have kids off in the distance and distract your dog with play or whatever and get used to being around different things, but you can't control every situation all the time.

Chances are you're going to come face to face with a situation like a kid running out form behind a car and your dog will react (if you're having these problems in the first place). What are you going to do? Just let the dog react and act aggressively?? Well, guess what, he just won and reinforced in his mind what he already liked to do, act agressively towards children.

There's a time and place for everything, dogs learn from lots of things, some lessons are learned faster better and for longer using something that seems to get nothing but bad press in here. Since dogs learn using positive and negative experiences i'm going to use both when the sitations present themselves. I guess I just don't have a moral conflict in my mind about it.

I just have to say that to me its less about moral conflict and more about what works long term. Also, your scenerio would never occur in my training session. Where is the threshold? What you describe is someone trying to deal with this problem without a training plan. You are talking about real world void of training. Apples and oranges...if you re-read the posts, you'll see what I mean.

Fran27 · Jun 12, 2006

I agree that it would be great to manage to teach a dog that growling and biting is not acceptable. In practice though, it's another matter. Even if you teach your dog that growling at children is not allowed... It won't change the way he feels about it, and what makes him growl. So then, when he is in the same situation again, he won't growl, but he will show his discomfort by another means - biting.

Not really a good solution if you ask me.

whatszmatter · Jun 12, 2006

I re-read, and as usualy i'm in the wrong thread, usually meshing other posts together from different days. IN this particular instance, for the growling, no I wouldn't be correting them I would work on what's triggering it and de-sesitizing as well, but if that growling ever changed to aggression, there would be a quick harsh correction.

Confused about something....

Squishy face

Herding dogs rock!!!

Priscilla Winifred Corgi

Active Member

Priscilla Winifred Corgi

Moderator

Twin 2.0

Squishy face

New Member

New Member

New Member

Active Member

Island dweller

New Member

New Member

whatszmatter

Guest

Moderator

Moderator

Active Member

whatszmatter

Guest