Carting

[Tazwell]

So, I'd like to start dabbling in a little bit of carting with Fleetwood. Not competition or anything, just around the yard and stuff. I have no idea how to begin, and I seem to find mixed ideas in research.

What I have now: a Padded Harness vest with D-rings on the sides
http://www.activedogs.com/product.php?id=67

And a folding wagon that I bought specifically for this purpose.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005CMHNUQ

I understand that the harness is not ideal, but until I (maybe) get serious I figure I can make do. The only weight I plan to have him pull is the wagon +10lbs at the most.

The wagon is nice, but I don't like the pivoting steering attachment that it has, but were going to modify that part anyway. I was thinking of making shafts out of bent aluminum-- sort of what this guy did with the radio flyer
http://lairds.org/Kyler/projects/dog_wagon/narration

And I have two handymen that can help me with the hardware, but before I do anything, I need to know the ins and outs of carting safety. I have confidence I can train him properly to accept it, but I don't want to do anything to endanger him in any way.

So does anyone have experience, tips, designs, links, or general advice for me? I guess the part I need help with is the attachments between dog and shafts, rather than how to modify the cart.

 

[Saeleofu]

I wouldn't use that harness vest for pulling. The straps aren't padded, just the "saddle" is padded - the part that doesn't really bear any weight. I'm also not convinced it will hold up to pulling, as I had the exact same one for Logan and it seemed rather flimsy (again, the "saddle" area is nice, the straps are pretty crappy). It also slid around a lot on Logan, but that may just be because of his shape/size. But that chest strap is just really harsh.

What I have used for light pulling with Gavroche in the past is one of those step-in harnesses that buckles over the back. I added padding to it, and used the O rings on either side to hook "traces" up to. I think Petco actually has some really nice padded ones in this style.

Aside from that, I'm not really any help, as all I've done is let Gavroche pull around a tire or pull the "poop cart" around the yard.

ETA: You can make a harness! http://uberpest.com/2006/10/make-your-own-dog-harness/

 

[Tazwell]

Thanks, Sael! I was thinking of making my own, I'm handy with collars so I'm sure I can figure it out. I think I'm just going to get fleece to line the front strap of my padded harness, I think it will stand up to such light pulling.

*ETA for now, at least, because I do agree with you about the harness!

 

[BlackPuppy]

That's a neat cart. I might look into buying that for my yard work.

One thing you need to be aware of is there needs to be a "1 point" ultimate attachment between the dog and the cart. I sounds like you are using shafts, in that case, you need to attach the harness to a "tree" to make up that 2 point to 1 point connection. The trees are only for turning and should not be bearing the weight of pulling. Weight pull harnesses have a built-in tree.

I have 3 different harnesses depending on the job.
- a competition weight pull harness.
https://www.google.com/search?q=wei...QG_lYDoDA&sqi=2&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1128&bih=691

- a Siwash harness to be used with carts with shafts
https://www.google.com/search?q=wei...44,d.dmQ&fp=a87dff3c80a9baf5&biw=1128&bih=691

- an Urban Musher harness for scootering or bike-joring.
http://www.alpineoutfitters.net/secure/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=155

 

[Tazwell]

My idea was to use nylon lines that attached to the base of the shafts. My imagined design was something like the attachhment and shafts that the dog with the radio flyer wagon has in my original post. Can I attach the pull lines to the base of the shafts?

And for the steering straps, I was going to rig something up out of nylon webbing, and just sort of put it over the harness. But like I said, If we enjoy it and he takes to it okay, I'll get a real carting harness.... Unless I can't rig something good, then I'll just have to cave.

By the way, blackpuppy, I'll see you at the DKC show this weekend!

 

[BlackPuppy]

You shouldn't do that. Even for 10 pounds. The reason there is always a tree to transfer the 2 lines into one point is because of how a dog (or horse) naturally moves their body when they walk. They wiggle side to side. If you fix each side to a stationary point, there is going to be stress on the dog's body as it tries to wiggle, but the cart does not move with it. Its for the good of the dog. I'm on the l-carting list and they talk about this now and again.

 

[BlackPuppy]

By the way, blackpuppy, I'll see you at the DKC show this weekend!

That's cool! I'm currently printing up my Laekenois handouts for the crowd. I hope 100 is enough. I have the paper,maybe I'll print another 100 tomorrow.

I was planning on bringing my weight pull harness to see if Balto will help me pull my equipment dolly.

 

[Tazwell]

Great! Then you can show me, LOL!

 

[Muttkip]

http://www.stillwaterkennelsupply.com/harnesses.htm

 

[Snark]

You shouldn't do that. Even for 10 pounds. The reason there is always a tree to transfer the 2 lines into one point is because of how a dog (or horse) naturally moves their body when they walk. They wiggle side to side. If you fix each side to a stationary point, there is going to be stress on the dog's body as it tries to wiggle, but the cart does not move with it. Its for the good of the dog. I'm on the l-carting list and they talk about this now and again.

^Agreed^ I'm more familiar with horses pulling carts but I'm guessing the principle is the same for dog carting. To get a 'feel' for the difference between pulling a fixed set of shafts versus a swingletree, pretend you're the dog and hold the 'traces' in each hand. Have someone else hold the other ends. Without a swingletree it may feel like the following.

Walk forward together, but tell the person behind you not to allow any forward movement in the rope, to keep their arms still. As you swing your arms/hands forward, you'll probably feel a jolt in each hand as the rope comes to an abrupt stop.

Now, to feel how a swingletree helps, ask your helper to give on each rope, with each swing of arm for instance, your right hand/arm goes forward, helper's right arm gives. See how much more comfortable it is? A swingletree helps prevent sore shoulders for horses and I'm guessing it does the same for dogs.

When I was teaching Riley to pull, I made a swingletree out of a thick wooden dowel, put eye bolts in the ends to attach the traces and a loose ring bolt (usually used for tying up horses) in the center to attach to whatever Riley was dragging. Never got around to getting him used to shafts since my goal was scootering but if I had, I probably would have set up something similar to the horses' harness/cart.

 

[Tazwell]

Can anybody post a picture or link of the connections or set-ups?

 

[BlackPuppy]

Here is a picture of my homemade cart. It's all scrap lumber, electrical conduit, the wheels are from Northern Tool, and the axle is just a steel dowel from Speedy Metals, and there are collar clamps on the axle to keep the wheels on.

The tree is just a piece of wood and 3 eye screws.

The wheels are $20 each.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_1030_1030

 

[BlackPuppy]

Well, I posted a reply, but it hasn't shown up yet. Are photos moderated?

 

[BlackPuppy]

http://clgoetz.8m.com/dogs/mycart.jpg

Here's the link to the photo. We'll see if my explanation shows up.

 

[BlackPuppy]

It looks like my explanation is lost in the ether.

What I wrote was, I built this cart from lumber scraps, electrical conduit, wheels from Northern Tool ($20 each), and the axle is a 3/4" steel rod from Speedy Metals (online). I used collar clamps to keep the wheels on the axle. I had to buy a conduit bender to get the curves.

The tree is just a piece of maple with 3 eye screws.

It looks like I don't have the brakes on the photo. They are farther up the shafts and prevent the cart from sliding forward if going down hill, or backing up. I just used "L" brackets that are fastened with hose clamps. I will photograph those tonight if you want.

 

[Tazwell]

Very cool! I like it a lot. It's a lot like what I had thought to do first, but I decided on a four wheel cart in case I ever wanted to put my smaller dogs in it. I felt like they would throw it off balance a little and cause him discomfort. I don't know if that's the case, but I liked how the wagon folds up for travel very easily anyway.

So, the two pull straps are connected from the two d-rings on the sides of his harness to the tree? That's it? Nothing else to consider? I think we can do that !

And is galvanized steel conduit okay in place of aluminum or wooden shafts? I'm just asking because my local hardware store sells and bends that, but not aluminum. Should the 2 shafts be attached seperately to the cart itself, like yours, or be designed in a U shape and come to a one-point attachment? I figure its best to not attach the steering shafts to the swivel steering point for the wagon handle, but rather have the shafts be an extension of the wagon itself. The wheels swivel independently, so it can still turn on a dime.

Hey thanks for putting up with all of my questions!

 

[BlackPuppy]

I also have a four wheel cart that I bought premade. I haven't used it yet. I got it for the same reason, sort of. If there were squirmy little kids (or dogs) in it, I wouldn't want it to put pressure on the dog pulling it.

Yes, the pull straps are connected to the tree.

The shafts can be like mine, or in a U-shape. I bent my shafts to match the height of my dog and they are parallel to the ground where they hook into the harness loops. You can have shafts that angle straight up from the wagon if your dog is short enough. Just make sure if you have a really tall dog that you don't poke him in the eyes with the shaft ends doing it that way. Also, I put little rubber feet on the end of my shafts. Home depot has them in a lot of different sizes.

I see what you mean. Those wheels are independent on that cart. (I read the reviews about that.) I agree that I wouldn't want the shafts hooked up to those wheels.

On my 4 wheel wagon from dogworks.com the shafts are connected to the wheel assembly, but they have a really nice turning mechanism. It's not like the front wheels of a typical little red wagon. Remember how easy those could tip over?

 

[BlackPuppy]

Well, I was looking at the photos on my Carting list. and saw a lot of people not using a tree. So, if you want to try without it first, why not. Just pay attention to your dog for any signs that it's bothering him/her. (I still feel better using it.)

 

[Snark]

It looks like I don't have the brakes on the photo. They are farther up the shafts and prevent the cart from sliding forward if going down hill, or backing up. I just used "L" brackets that are fastened with hose clamps. I will photograph those tonight if you want.

Just curious... for a horse-drawn cart, the back breeching on the horse's harness is what stops the cart, so the horse is essentially the brake (unless you have an actual foot-brake on the cart/carriage itself). Is it the same with dog carting?

Also, shafts on a 2 wheel horse-drawn cart also tend to go up when weight is put in, so, ideally, there is no weight on the horse's back from the cart. The shafts will 'float' in the tug straps. Same with dog carts?

 

[BlackPuppy]

Two wheel dog cars are balanced, so there is basically no weight on the dog's back, or very very little. But these are only for dead loads. That is why we were talking about using a 4 wheel cart if there is a child or dog in the cargo.

Some people have special harness setups that are like the horses with breeching. These are mostly used with historical reproductions.

The Siwash, which seems to be the most commonly used carting harness, does it a little differently. The shafts go through loops on the harness. But there is a piece attached to the shaft to prevent the loops from sliding back on the shaft when the dog is going downhill for stopping.

I couldn't find a very good photo online. This page has the best photo and still not that great.
http://romanreign.com/draftvehicles.htm

I use a small angled piece of metal attached to my shafts. there are also some other systems which involve more attachments to the harness.