Advice Please: Shaping

[Alex]

To all the clicker trainers out there.

I have a 12 year old girl who is desperately trying to teach her dog to pick things up. I've known her for a long time, and I simply adore her. I'm not going to go into her personal history here, but she has had a very rough time lately, and this is something that she really wants to teach Cheyenne. The dog is what looks like a Newf/lab mix and is amazingly sweet, gentle, and very intelligent. She really is a very low energy dog, and rarely gets excited about anything. Cheyenne is almost 2 years old. Now, our problem...we have been working on targeting (touch it) for quite a while, and Cheyenne can touch pretty much anything. We have shaped the behavior to where she will use both of her feet, and her nose, but the problem is we can't seem to get her to pick anything up. She has never been a mouthy dog, and isn't really a fan of toys. She's not interested in bones, pig ears, or anything tasty, and her Leave-it is so amazing that she won't pick up any food off of the floor. She will eagerly take a treat from your hand, so we have been working on a "take-it" command, but she is simply not interested in taking anything other than food.

We have tried shaping it (touch it with the nose, then the tongue, then the teeth, then hold it in her mouth), but we haven't been able to get past the touch it with the nose. She will touch it a few times with her nose, then looses interest and gives up.

She will eagerly touch anything with her feet, and can go out to a target and wait easily. But, I can't figure out how to take her to the next level and get her to pick things up in her mouth.

Any suggestions? I really do not want to have to tell this girl that she can't do this. I've always tried to stress to her that no matter what's happening, anything's possible if you put your mind to it...I'd hate to have to change that now.

Thanks in advance.

 

[silverpawz]

How excited about this object is she? With a dog that's not very oral to begin with you really need to get reved up and make it a BIG deal. Fuss over the toy, run around the room waving it behind you, etc. Get the dog to want this toy because YOU think it's awesome. When she puts her mouth on it, CLICK, remove the toy and treat right away.

Put the toy away for a while and try again later. It's important to not overdo it in the begining. For the toy to be special it needs to be something that is only brought out for training sessions. Once she has the idea you can later transfer the behavior to different objects.

Getting them to put an object in their mouth the first few times is the hard part, but once that happens it often goes much smoother.

For some dogs that simply have NO desire to grab a toy at all, I've gently placed the toy in their mouth after presenting it and then clicked, removed the toy and treated. Sometimes just showing them what you want helps.
But I prefer to have the dog do it on their own if possible as they learn much faster.

 

[Alex]

She's not interested in toys at all. You hold it up, she'll touch it (poke it with her nose) but after there is no click and no treat, she quickly gives up. lol we have tried sticking it in her mouth...she simply opened her mouth, spit it out like it was horribly nasty, and accepted the treat. After putting it in her mouth 3 or 4 times, she would turn her head and attempt to clamp her mouth shut. Not wanting to pry her jaws open (not exactally a positive experience...) we decided to try something else.

Hope you guys can tell me what that is.

 

[silverpawz]

Just showing her the toy is not enough. You need to get excited about it. If you're not, the dog won't be either.
Building toy drive in a dog that has none is difficult, but not impossible. She may never crave a toy but getting her to grab it should be doable.

Seriously, hold up the toy and then dart off in the opposite direction. Run around the living room with it. Wave it in the air. The dog will want to know what all the fuss is about and might even want to be part of the fun. When she shows interest wave the toy around in front of her and with any luck she'll take it. It may even take a few days of doing this before she tries to participate.

I think you're looking at this from a purely shaping standpoint, which isn't bad, but may not be working for this dog, for this particualr exercise. It sounds like you (or her) need to get more involved to make it work instead of simply shaping the behavior.

(and be sure to close the blinds or you might get strange looks from your neighbors. )

 

[otch1]

Guessing from certain things said... doesn't like chewing, not interested in bones, pigs ears, tasty things, doesn't like toys, this is a very "soft mouthed dog". If she truly is a Newfie/Lab mix, it sounds like you're dealing with her Newfie side. It can be more challenging to teach retrieving and a hold, to dogs with jowels, excessive folds, and also short muzzled dogs because the sensation of plastic, metal, wood, hard objects, is sometimes very unpleasant for them. Appeal to her Lab side. Get a soft, cloth retrieveing dummy or a large, very thick, 2ft long piece of cotton rope. No knotted ends! You've already started a forced retrieve/hold, with negative results and have been teaching a rock solid "leave-it" with her not taking things off the ground, so change things up a bit. Get a plastic crate, stationery box, (it can't move and scare her) and work with getting her to take the "softer" object from there. Never pry her mouth open from the side, you'll create a lot of resistant behavior doing this. There are pressure points to get them to open their mouth, with very little effort or force on your part. And very little discomfort for the dog. Much the same as getting a horse to willing accept a metal bit in his mouth. But no need to go there, if you do this properly. First, use a different object, change where and how you approach this and do as Silverpawz stated, convince Cheyene this is a very interesting activity (because there's a big reward involved for obeying "take it") and concentrate on making comfortable for her to "hold".

 

[sourjayne]

I've been reading about this and what I read said to get the dog targeting, which it sounds like you have.

When she's reliably touching the object with her nose, start a new session in which you will only click for two touches. The first nose touch won't be clicked, so the dog will look at you like "Why didn't you click, I touched it!" and then she will touch it again, this time harder. You click for the second one.

Eventually she will be only offering hard touches, so you can click every time for a while, then, when she's consistently offering hard touches, again you click for a harder touch. If she gets more and more enthusiastic about it, chances are she might accidentally touch it with her teeth. Eventually you can look for that and click for that only.

Taking it gradually like this will prevent her from losing interest because she is still getting clicked almost every time she offers the behavior. Don't ever let her offer a behavior more than twice without a click, this means your criteria is too high and she's not ready to move to that step yet. If she's not getting clicked at least 8 out of 10 behaviors she offers, you need to step back and click for what she is offering -- keep the rate of reinforcement high so she stays interested.

Here's the link I got this from:
http://www.dragonflyllama.com/ DOGS/Levels/LevelBehaviours/TL17Retrieve.html

Read under "Level Four" under "Easy Beginnings"