Minding when distracted

We worked on focus yesterday. I have to admit it was a little creepy staring into each other eyes for so long. We were eye locked and she doesn't blink. LOL.

It's not me Diane that's doing great, it's Peyton. I'm not expecting more than just some good puppy manners from all this, I do think at 7 months old it's time to work on some basics while letting her be a puppy. I'm not expecting perfection here, simply some progress in the life skills she will need.

She is play motivated, but with dogs and people not so much toys. Oh, she likes her toys at home and will chase a ball at the dog park, but that's secondary to wrestling and chasing other dogs. Dogs are her hot button.

If I tried to distract her away the next time she got fixated on a dog using people play. That may increase her excitement level. It doesn't take much to get her going and I may end up with even a wilder puppy on the end of my leash. It's worth a try though until I can get with this new trainer. The bottom line in all this, is she needs to learn how to greet other dogs. If I can't get her to focus on me, I cannot teach her. Chicken and the Egg.

I think we'll go to the Petsmart today that has the glass windows and work on this there. It's starting to turn cold here now and our days of outside socialization may be limited soon.

This is a high maintenance puppy. She requires a lot of attention and perhaps more so that other breeds. It's 7:00 in the morning and she has been short walked, eaten, chewed out a Kong treat and we have played ball 150 times. It goes at this pace all day long and she seems to rarely nap unless she's in the car. Training for her is just another way to keep busy.

She never gets tired of being petted and I think would sit for hours for it. She is a very sweet and affectionate dog by nature and with very limited licking. She used to paw for attention more than she does now. I taught her not to paw and sometimes I see her raise her paw slightly, then put it back down. She's getting the no paw thing and doing very well.

She was a big time play mouther and my hands were scratched in the past. 99% of that has gone away now and she only mouths other dogs. Not perfect with me, but she's getting there. She used to mouth my hand when I tried to pet her for example, that is 100% gone now.

I have never raised my voice to her. A simple no, will do. This puppy is very sensitive and a little "no" goes a very long way. I use that word very sparingly and when I don't have a command. This morning she was eying some electrical wires and when I said no, she made eye contact and simply walked away. Thinking about this now, maybe I should have used leave it instead.

She trusts me I think. I can touch her anywhere and she's fine with it. I make a habit of holding her paws, ears, tail and so on. She did well at the vet yesterday even having her temperature taken and went along with the rest of the exam just fine.

Yesterday, my son was over and he was playing with her. He asked her to do a down. She ignored him for the most part. I said it and she went right down. He was playing with her and I walked out of the room. She left the playtime and followed me. I think we are building a strong bond and she looks to me now.

She's a great puppy and someday will be an even greater dog. I've done some things right and done some things wrong. Hopefully, this new trainer will help me communicate with her and give me the skills to assist in her growth into a happy well adjusted adult dog. Her development is only limited by my ability to communicate with her.

Tremendous progress has been made in too numerous areas to mention here and still a boundless amount of potential is before me. The fact is, that I adopted a Ferrari and I'm still learning to drive.

Oh, btw, I set appointments to two other trainers plus I have that hateful one, and now this new one. I have cancelled all but the hateful one and the new one. I meet with the new one (positive) on Thursday night which is the night I'm supposed to go to the hateful class. I doubt I can get my money back so that may be money lost. She did say she would refund my money for the Martingale though so maybe there's a chance I can get my money back on the class.

I'm thinking I need to stick with one trainer/philosophy/methodology/terminology so we Peyton and I don't get confused here. I also found out that not only is this new trainer a positive/clicker trainer, she teaches tricks and was the CGC evaluator for the person who referred me. I wasted time and money, did a lot of phoning and talking, but I "think" I'm finally on the right track here. I'll know more in a couple of days.

We had a setback. She was totally out of control at Petsmart. Probably the worst ever. She was jerking me around and at one point I almost fell. She is on a padded flat collar, but it's my shoulder that needs the pad, the heating variety. This was not fun or enjoyable for either.

I tried the toy diversion, no luck, I tried a squeaky tennis ball no luck. I tried treats, no luck. It reminded me of trying to reel in a very large game fish, she was fighting to get away every inch of the way.

We're not going back to petsmart until I meet with the trainer. The saddest part of all this is there was only one dog in the store. I doubt many women could hold this dog back and it was all I could do.

I tried redirection and she just pulled in the new direction. It was like she had never been on a leash. I can deal with people looking at me with a wild, barking, pulling dog, but when her behavior starts to inflict pain on me, that's another matter.

I've got to get this under control one way or another or simply the dog cannot go with me. I'll keep her out of Petsmart until the trainer sees her. We are meeting at the same Petsmart where Peyton and I went today. I'll go with the trainers suggestion and hopefully she will show me something that works. I can't seem to find the right answer for her and we're up to 13 pages, 3 weeks and today she was as wild or wilder than ever. I have got to get control here or I'll be walking this dog in my arm sling.

joe we ALWAYS have good days and bad days , don't be discouraged! Altho I can feel your frustration! I don't know if you read my thread on here about my gsd puppy, who was very SOCIAL until I started puppy classes where she'd get 'jumped" every darn week, long story short result = these 'experiences' put her in defense mode,,and I KNOW how it is having a STRONG dog pulling you and being well, a jerk, and almost causing accidents with me anyhow )

I have now been working on deprogramming the damage done, (I pulled her from the class and take my aussie who LOVES positive training, and could care less about 'rude' dogs/dumb owners) . We have GREAT experiences and a few not so great experiences,,so like you,,my puppy is a work in progress ))

Someone who had been a LONG time aussie owner told me once,,when they hit age 2, all of a sudden you'll wake up one morning and your aussie will be magically changed overnite, (as in not as WILD & demanding) and you'll think they are "sick" LOL..She was SOOOO right..Jynx as a young dog was VERY demanding of my time, always ON THE GO-GO GO GO...but she did become more atuned to my schedule and adapts to it well.

Don't be to locked into ONE training method either,,GO with what works for your dog..The whole mystery of training one's dog is to find what DOES work for your dog,,once you get there the rest is a piece of cake..

For the amount of time you have had her,,she is doing AMAZINGLY well, and SO ARE YOU!!!!
If you hadn't directed her properly,,well she wouldn't be as far along as she is !!! So what she is 'becoming' is much more to YOUR credit than hers,,she is soaking in what you are teaching her..I firmly believe you get out of your dog what you put into them..and she is right now, a 'sponge'..So don't think it's all HER..aussies are smart but if they don't have a good leader they will be like any dog with no training..

Ok,,done rambling,,you are doing GOOD,,hang in there,,just remember we ALL have good days and bad days)))
diane

Three weeks! Try three years is more like it. LOL. Sorry. But Jynx is so right. Don't get discouraged. She's a puppy. Becoming civilized doesn't really happen for another couple of years.

Never underestimate the "power of a woman." :rofl1: I went what you're going through with a 90 LB Doberman who ran a whole LOT in the woods off leash every day....long hikes. This guy was a bag of muscle. He did manage to pull me down prone one time in a puppy class when he was about 8 months old or so.

PetSmart is apparently too much stimulation....too many distractions. Remember about training in boring rooms, then your own yard etc....work up gradually before expecting reliability in any way shape or form. You can get a halti harness or something in the meantime. Those are designed to prevent pulling and are attached from the front.

Patience, practice and time...

I'm not waiting 3 years Carrie. Yeah yeah, blame it on the fact she is a puppy but at 7 months old she needs some kind of rules.

I never correct this dog, it's always trying to "persuade" her to do the right thing. That works fine for some behaviors, but when the behaviors are in the extreme, she's just not responding AT ALL.

During one part of the rampage, I even tried the T-touch massage, the response I got from that was her grabbing her leash and playing tug of war. She would not drop it of course and I could not drop the leash and ignore, so I had to move on then she took off again in pull mode. Wish you guys were there. I had my hands full with a wild eyed dog.

The danger here is she learned if she pulled me hard enough, she would get to go where she wanted. I just saw that again when I took her outside, so what happened today was not a positive move forward but instead may be harder to break than ever. Now I have to get her back at least where she was before we move forward.

I did change her collar yesterday to a very wide padded one. I was thinking that it would not hurt her neck when she pulled. Instead, it seemed to empower her and NOW she can pull with all her might and it does not effect her. There are no consequences when she misbehaves at home, in the car or out in public and she knows it.

She was worse than that child in the supermarket line, you know the one, the one you wish their mother would do something when they throw a fit, except this child was mine.

YAH!!! She's back and better.

I watched a youtube video about pulling. 6 foot leash and you take up 3 feet of it. If the dog pulls, drop the other 3 feet and turn your back sharply and walk the opposite direction. They said it will only take a few times to hit the end of the leash before they decide they had better watch you. Because all they see is your back, they don't associate the sudden tug with you.

I did that one time and she didn't pull anymore. We practiced that for 30 minutes and she has never heeled better in her life. My turns were ALL about face and she was right with me and slightly behind me, never in front. I went through a whole bag of liver treats but she got it. It felt like I didn't even have a dog on the leash. Awesome!

She catches on sooo quick, there is no reason for her out of control behavior other than she does not know the end of that leash. It's a boundary I have not set. I just need a slightly firmer hand with her in the critical areas and she'll do just fine. She got a can of sardines in her innova tonight a gazillion praises when she was heeling and we'll go back out for a comfortable walk later. She's back in line.

I used this method.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoJPUH6ULLc&feature=related

New video this morning of what she learned last night on heel. I know I sound like a broken record, but this pup learns at an amazing pace. Today is day 22 and this is all on the padded flat collar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt1jg8K78kU

It's no wonder I nicknamed her "Awesum Possum".

Joe, that is that exact heeling method I use,,(I may have described in this thread previously or another one)..One thing I DO add to this is,,,when the dog gets IN the position you want her,,(wherever that may be),,start rewarding/praising/(good girl, good heel, whatever you want to use),,and TREAT her (if that works for her),,,as SOON as she moves out of the position (do the turning as your doing) and SAY NOTHING,,aboslutely NOTHING,,keep moving at a brisk pace (I am on a mission pace)
and keep your mouth shut UNTIL she gets back in that position you want her,,and reward/praise etc,,and CONTINUE to reward/praise etc,,UNLESS she moves out of the position..and then shut up again ))))

I have used this on every dog I've had,,and yeah I admit,,I've gotten QUITE dizzy ALOT,,I don't necessarily turn in the opposite direction,,I just turn in a different direction ,,opposite/different direction same thing..

Again, don't be surprised if she turns into "jello" tomorrow and seems to forget everything you taught her,,PUPPIES are like that )) It's their "job" to keep us on our toes and always working ))

Glad your doing better today
diane

I stay dizzy, so this is nothing new. She finds herself behind more than she used to but she's getting there. We walk about 5 times a day so she'll have plenty of practice. I'll try to treat her once she gets to the place I want her, thanks for the tip. Right now I'm just grateful not to be an Apple cart.

Her being behind me has rasied a new problem, nipping at my heels. She did it a couple of times and I corrected her. Since that time I have seen her "think" about it but back off at the last second. We went for our extended night walk tonight and she did ok. I'm not expecting perfection here, just something more manageable and I have that now.

We had a weird encounter with a Muslim today. Dogs are impure to them and this guy was all freaked out Peyton was going to touch him. Islam to Peyton="leave it".

She's still very people curious and will break heel if she thinks she can sneak a passing by sniff. That's a problem in tight areas and a loose leash and where we got into trouble today with this Muslim. It's simply another distraction to deal with and something I hope to work on with the new trainer. She needs to mind her own business in the world we live in today.

Yes, I agree, the "turn my back and go", did the trick. If I keep her guessing where I might go next, she seems to focus a little better I'm sure she wished I would make up my mind and also wondered if I was ever going to get where I wanted to go. We worked mostly north and south today, she still needs work when she pulls to the side but we'll get there.

The meeting with the new trainer is tomorrow night. We're meeting where Peyton went nutso yesterday. I'm interested to see how this trainer looks with Peyton dragging her down the isles. I found out that the Saturday training area is all enclosed. Did I mention Peyton barks to the top of her lungs when she sees other dogs? This should be an interesting class on Saturday. Xanax, ear plugs and Analagesics are the prescriptions of the day.

Wow! Did I say something about waiting 3 years to learn some rules? I've always started training my puppies as soon as I got them. What I meant was that she won't mature till around 3 years, give or take and that you can't expect calm, self controlled, nice leash walking in just a few weeks or even months (reliably) when you take her into a pet store or other place where the stimuli is extreme and she hasn't been conditioned to less extreme stimuli first.

Here's my Doberman when he was a youngster...I think around 6-8 months old but we had been working on things since he was about 9-10 weeks old. He's practicing around a lot of people in Seattle. But he had practiced around people before. This wasn't the beginning of his training. Here I'm tugging on the leash to proof his stay with me right there close.



Here he is at around 2.5 or 3. We had built his stay up to a long duration and I'm about 50-75 yards away and near me are lots of people and dogs on leashes. Where he is, it's not so busy.



Did he have the self control at 8 months to be reliable in this way? No.

I don't have any pictures of him walking on a leash but he certainly wasn't profficient right away. It too took time.

I worked on focus training as a separate exercise at first so he learned that watching me paid off. Then I didn't have to do much unexpected turning if he was on a leash. In fact, a great deal of his training was done off leash....most of it. If he wanted the good stuff, he paid attention and came along next to me. If he didn't...then so be it. I'd just keep walking across my pasture. I made it so the choice was clear. Not only high value treats, but a rope toy that he LOVED would suddenly and frequently jump out from under my coat. A furry thing was also used to let him have a prey energy burner. He never knew just when so he tended to engage. Of course, he was very "into" his owner....it's a breed thing with Dobes. But he wasn't super for some time. Eventually, we went and got his CGC...I think he was around 2.5 or close to 3 if I remember correctly.

Dobermans are such regal dogs and yours is a handsome guy!

There's really no question in my mind that my puppy will come around and it will take time. What I need to do is identify places/distances/scenarios where she succeeds and fails and work on the behaviors in the middle. For example: If she sees a dog at 100 yards and can still focus on me, then at what yardage does she just start to become out of control. Let's say it's 50 yards away. I start at 55 yards away and we work towards the dog rewarding positive behavior and self control. Right now, I have no idea is it's 100 yards or 100 feet, that's what I need to determine and set a baseline. I'm not waiting on her to learn, she's waiting on me to teach her.

My other issue is repeatably. I don't have another dog to put 100 yards away every time we train so I must use other dogs on leashes passing by. I just need to determine a real starting distance and get started. I'm not convinced putting her in a room full of dogs and over-saturating her will desensitize her. If that was the case, we would be at the dog park every single day.

Questions have been answered in the last 3 weeks. My main question:

Can this neglected and totally untrained dog learn? Yes, and video's prove it.

The next question is if I have the technical know how to take her to the next step. That's still TBD and why it's best I get some trainer to help me in real time. I can teach, sit, down wait, drop, leave it and so on, but her play drive and self control is not an action that is so clear cut but a behavioral modification that's out of my expertise.

I have said before, I try to use the word no sparingly. No can mean anything to a dog. Let's say she is pulling, barking, jumping try to get to a dog. If I say NO, what does she think I mean? No jumping? No barking? No Pulling? No Playing? No to all dogs? She will never learn unless she understands what exact behavior I'm correcting unless it's a singular action. When she's out of control there are a lot of NO's that could apply.

I'm all about desensitizing. I saw it with my Heeler and I have seen it work well with Peyton. Peyton was a dog who had never ridden in a car and was terrified. Today, she beats me to the car and won't let me get in the car until she does. She's pretty good on "wait" but will break wait, if I take too long in the garage. She wants to go in the car and it's because she was desensitized.

When we go outside, she sits at the door to have her leash put on, then she waits with the door open until I release her and after I move forward. She does pretty well which tells me she has a least "some" level of self control. If she has that level of self control, it would make sense that she could learn self control in other areas like approaching other dogs. How I get her to that point is still TBD and if I've learned anything on this board it's that not all methods work for every dog.

My rush continues to be the method by which she will respond and not the outcome. Once I identify the method that works for her, I can work towards the goal of a well balanced dog. If it takes 3 years, that's fine, but I refuse to wait three years to get started. This should have been started 6 months ago and there's no time like the present to get started.

BTW, I got her a new toy, it's this one.
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3207113

She likes it better than her Kong because she can actually get something out of this one.

One of the areas I have been neglecting some are physical hand cues. If you notice in my latest video, it's all verbal. I guess that's fine once a dog is solid but I'm thinking now, that I should add stronger hand cues and use more lures to make it easier for the pup to understand. When I think about it, not only is the puppy trying to learn me, I'm asking her to learn the English language at the same time.

I just did an experiment to test this theory. She was getting her down and sit commands confused. I used a lure to clarify it in a sweeping motion and after a few minutes she understood at a basic level. So, taking that theory a step further, we worked on roll-over. After a few minutes she was showing me her tummy.

From now on, I'm adding hand commands to the verbal commands to communicate clearer.

Here a video I just did. This took a total of three 5 minute sessions for "where's that tummy" using hand signals and a lure. It not so easy trying to hold my camera phone pet her tummy but you'll get the idea. It's interesting that at one point I dropped a treat by mistake and she waited until I released her. Now she goes from down to sit and from sit to down.

I know this is probably not remarkable to you guys, but it's just astounding to me that she learned this and everything else I try so quickly. Now, if I could just teach her Photoshop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMISysMnuP8

well darn my computer is to slow for me to watch the video's but I'll definately take your word for it..I DO find my aussies were amazingly fast learners when it came to, especially trick type stuff, which I then incorporated into "good manner behaviors"..

One thing I wanted to mention,,I don't use the word "no",,my opinion is, the word is 'nagging',,and they tend to end up tuning you out,,for about 98% of things,,I use "leave it",,,leave it, means just that,,LEAVE whatever your doing NOW... No to me is kinda vague...but you use what works for you!!

I forget if your using a clicker?? If so,,there is a great book I really liked, Peggy Tilman's Clicking with your Dog,,it gives you hundreds of behaviors (including obedience stuff) and breaks it down into 'steps' that ANYONE can understand and do...Just a suggestion, you might find it helpful..

Let us know how the trainer meet up goes!
diane

Well, it's nothing earth shattering in that video anyway.

I'm careful using the word no. I think her previous owner must have screamed NO at her. If I say it she goes into cowd mode and it takes a little bit for her to come back to life even though I don't say it harsh. It's too generic of a word anyway. I could use it if life and death and I needed an instant response, but for most of the things she does that needs correcting, I don't need that kind of correction muscle. This puppy is very sensitive even to the slightest change in my voice and I'm trying to build trust and her own self confidence and yelling no to her, is not the way to correct this puppy. NO is a 4 letter word to her. A little no, goes a very very long way.

Yep, I use the clicker BIG time. I didn't use it in my last video but she was trained with it.

I would love to teach her tricks, but right now I'm trying to keep things simple for her. Down, sit, wait, heel, drop it, leave it, come are enough for right now and sometimes she gets those confused. I added another one today "Tummy" and that was just for fun and more of an experiment to see if hand signals speed things up and it did, and besides she loves to have her belly rubbed.

You have an Aussie, so you know what they look like when those wheels are turning and when they get it. I love it when she cocks her head, I know she's tuned into me. She's goofy too and sometimes clumsy. Sometimes she falls asleep on her back with her front paws extended in the air and a whole host of other cute and endearing behaviors.

I'm really enjoying her and there is no doubt, she will be an exceptional dog because she is a great puppy today. I also have to admit now that I'm a Aussie convert. She has totally convinced me.

She has never seen a cat. Today, we were out walking and there were some kittens under cover. I'm guessing they were Ferrel kittens and they had never seen a dog. She wasn't sure what they were, and approached cautiously, she was more afraid of them than anything else. She laid down and just watched them very calmly. A kitten came out and got close enough for her to touch the kitten with her nose. She was very gentle then moved back around me a little shaken but never aggressive. The kitten went back to her litter mates safe and sound.

I put a youtube video up on it. It's here. Towards the end, you'll see the little kitten meet Peyton. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLjV0QH-3Jk

I guess there are aggressive Aussies, but I don't have one. She is never dog aggressive, never people/child aggressive and always sweet and playful to both. I guess I can include kittens now too. Wow...what a dog.

We're off the meet the new trainer.

I found my trainer. We start class tomorrow. Basic obedience in a group of 8 other dogs. I really liked this lady, good energy, positive and knowledgeable. We talked about an hour in the same room with Peyton. Peyton was playing with her the assistant as we chatted.

This class started last week so she brought me up to speed. She asked me to show her how Peyton responded to my commands. I put Peyton in a down, asked her “Where's her Tummyâ€, and sure enough Peyton went over on her side.

She suggested I change my timing a bit. What she said made perfect sense. Hand signal first, then when Peyton does it, THEN give the verbal command, click and reward. This makes much more sense to me. She also said, to provide the treat within 3 seconds.

She's big on redirecting unwanted behaviors and using distractions to my advantage. She does not like the word no. She brought that subject up, not me.

We talked specifically about Peyton. We talked about dog parks for example. She gave me some suggestions at a level I had not considered. For example: If there are aggressive dogs at the park, leave. Then she suggested, do not put Peyton on a leash and go to the car, put her on a leash and take her for a walk. This way, she does not associate the leash at the park with the end of her fun and is more likely to accept the leash at the dog park. It was a level of understanding that I had not considered and made perfect sense. She also said; use the dog park as a training spot. When Peyton comes over to me, ask for a sit, then release, this will help train with doggy distractions. I came away with tools I could use to better Peyton and condition her behaviors. We talked about specific doggy parks in my area and which one she suggested and which ones to avoid.

She suggested doggy day care for Peyton, She felt it was good to conditioner for her to be away from me, so there will be less separation anxiety down the road as well as being socialized. We talked about the pawing and she suggested standing up and turning my back when she does it, she said Peyton may paw even more at first but she will stop it if it does not get her what she wanted.

She got to see Peyton around other dogs. I expressed my concern that Peyton would be disruptive in class. She said to walk Peyton before class, bring my Gentle leader and her favorite chew toy. If her favorite toy does not calm her, the trainer has something called Comfort Zone that is doggy pheromone that we can try. I may be asked to step out of the class if it’s too disruptive until Peyton becomes calmer. I put Gentle leader on Peyton and asked the trainer if it was fitted properly, she checked it and said it was fine.

What I could tell, is that she understood dogs and their behaviors and motivators. She places emphasis on building trust, the bond and focused relationships above all else, and never sacrifices fun for the dog for the sake of training. I didn’t ask about her credentials, it was obvious to me she understood and loved what she did with dogs. If she’s is a CGC evaluator or not, that was not part of the conversation and is irrelevant. I liked the lady, she had my full attention because it was clear that she knew dogs, was kind in her approach and possessed a deep understanding of canine behaviors.

She said many other things on different topics and at a deep level that were all good, and nothing that caused me to pause or that were negative. I signed up, bought Peyton a toothbrush and we came home. She saw first hand how smart Peyton is because the assistant had taught Peyton 2 new behaviors while we were talking. The trainer and the assistant both thought Peyton was adorable. Peyton has never failed to win the hearts of those who meet her.

Everything is going to be just fine and I can relax now and enjoy the journey. It was another great night with my dog.

I decided to test and see if walking her up and down the busy street each day was paying off. First, I ran her through the basic commands 30 feet from the street, she had the noise but not the visual distractions. She did great, then I took her very near the street. 1 1/2 minutes was her threshold as you see in this video and I should have shortened it more.

I think a few more days not so near the street is in order here. What I was trying to find out was her limit so I could back off and work forward. What does seem clear is she is making progress by being desensitized to very heavy traffic. 3 weeks ago she was trying to break the leash, chase cars and get away in the same spot. I got her to roll over on her side at one point. Normal traffic she doesn't even blink now so my new training spot is somewhere in between. She's a city puppy and must get used to city sights and sounds and stay focused on me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO_J_NGHw-w

This took about 30 minutes to teach today. Peyton rings a cow bell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNDhWXeCC9Y