What to do when you can't control the threshold?

milos_mommy

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#1
I'm having a lot of trouble with dealing with Tom's reactivity based on the fact I can't control the environment and prevent him from seeing other dogs on leash.

He's actually scratched open cuts into his face with his own nails trying to claw the halti off (he's fine with it when we don't see another dog) to get to another dog. He's taken to using his front feet as leverage against my body to push himself as far as possible from me.

Is there ANYTHING I can do when we absolutely MUST pass another dog or one does, for example, walk out of a doorway 5 feet in front of us?

I'm wondering if drugging him might be an option, until we can work on this more? Or using rescue remedy or nutri-calm or something? We'll make progress, but as soon as he sees another dog close enough to make him react, it's a zillion steps backwards :(
 

Sekah

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#2
Have you considered using another tool other than a Halti? Maybe a no-pull harness?

Also, are walks 100% necessary? How about doing reactivity work in a classroom/controlled setting (or even on your front porch, away from dogs) and exercise him in the home via games, nosework, etc.
 

corgipower

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#3
I agree with Sekah.

Also, when you do have to see another dog, keep moving. Ignore the other dog and walk out of the area. Try not to look at Tom, try to just walk, briskly and confidently away. And be aware of YOUR reaction. If you're worrying about what is going to happen, he'll feed off that. If it helps, you might hold food in your hand - something super yummy. Yes, it's bribing. No, it's not correct training. But if it prevents a dangerous situation from escalating long enough to get sufficient distance, so be it.
 

milos_mommy

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#4
I live in a tiny apartment and have no yard. So yes, walks are 100% necessary.

I do bring food on walks, there is absolutely nothing he'll pay attention to when another dog gets fairly close. (by fairly close, I mean within 10-20 feet).

I could try a harness, but I don't feel like I have the same amount of control (with the halti, I can somewhat prevent him from staring/fixating on the other dog and this does seem to keep him a little bit calmer).

So far, I really am just trying to get him away from the other dog as quickly and calmly as possible. But this is kind of difficult 1) if we end up in between 2 or 3 other dogs and have no where to walk which isn't towards another dog and 2) because he throws himself against my legs, tries to climb up my body to launch himself towards other dog, tries to push through my legs if I attempt to body block him, etc.
 

milos_mommy

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#5
Oh, and I am doing reactivity work in as controlled setting. Like I said, he'll make progress, but as soon as we see another dog past his threshold on a walk, it all goes out the window and he seems to get worse every time.
 

Dekka

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#6
I would stay with the halti. And yes walk confidently past. Try to time your walks (assuming you aren't already) to be when less people with dogs are about.

Have you worked on focus at home? I mean will he focus totally on you when super exciting (non dog things) happen at home? I know you want him to be able to calmly observe other dogs, but having him sit and focus on you whilst the other dog goes past would be a good intermediary step.
 

milos_mommy

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#7
I would stay with the halti. And yes walk confidently past. Try to time your walks (assuming you aren't already) to be when less people with dogs are about.

Have you worked on focus at home? I mean will he focus totally on you when super exciting (non dog things) happen at home? I know you want him to be able to calmly observe other dogs, but having him sit and focus on you whilst the other dog goes past would be a good intermediary step.
I'm already doing this (getting up at 6am to take him out, staying up til midnight to take him out...)

Yeah, we're working on focus, and that his improvement tremendously. He will focus on me when super exciting things are happening both at home AND on leash (like crowds of people, me tossing food away on the floor, firetrucks roaring past, etc.). After training sessions, when a dog is 20 or more feet away, he WILL focus on me. But then if sees another dog closer than that and reacts, he won't focus again until another training session, when I have more hot dogs, etc.
 

Kayla

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#8
I do bring food on walks, there is absolutely nothing he'll pay attention to when another dog gets fairly close. (by fairly close, I mean within 10-20 feet).

I could try a harness, but I don't feel like I have the same amount of control (with the halti, I can somewhat prevent him from staring/fixating on the other dog and this does seem to keep him a little bit calmer).
I think you should trust your gut and stick with what you feel like you have the most control with specifically in regards to controlling his head while you get out of the situation.

So far, I really am just trying to get him away from the other dog as quickly and calmly as possible. But this is kind of difficult 1) if we end up in between 2 or 3 other dogs and have no where to walk which isn't towards another dog and 2) because he throws himself against my legs, tries to climb up my body to launch himself towards other dog, tries to push through my legs if I attempt to body block him, etc.
I think you should consider a muzzle on top of his head halter and stick with your big reinforcement (like hot dogs) and keep doing what your doing. The fact that you've already done alot of focus work inside and that you can get his focus up until he goes over threashold is a huge success you should be really proud of the work you've been doing for Tom.

With that being said, with your current living situation you really can't afford an incident where another dog manages to get close enough for Tom to get worked up and actually make contact. A muzzle is an absolute must in my mind when working with any type of reactivity involving a fairly real chance that the reactive dog would connect if given the opportunity and the environment supports the likelyhood of this happening (due to the high concentration of dogs in an apartment building and moments in hallways/ elevators or on the property where you could encounter a dog in close proximity.

A very good friend of mine brought home a severly underweight puppy who was from a puppy mill when she used to work at a pet store. Her puppy was very reactive from day 1, but lucky for her pup she is a very savvy handler and very knowledgable about positive reinforcement, counter-conditioning and makes a point to keep herself informed on literature like Click to Calm, and so forth.

From Day 1 she worked very hard with her pup, but consistently suffered major set back after major set back because of the environment (she also lived in an apartment building). Week after week we spoke about her little pup's steady decline as she was continually bombarded by dogs in the elevator, in the halls and by offleash dogs around the complex. By 6 months her dog went into an absolute frenzy at the sight of other dogs and she was absolutly heart broken that while she certainly was making so much progress in so many other areas, that her pups reactivity was continuing to down spiral.

At 8 months old she decided to move home with her parents to give her pup a better chance at working through her reactivity. Her pup is turning 1 this week and the improvement is AMAZING. She still is quick to go over threashold and into a frenzy, but many times, depending on the distance she can stop reacting briefly to eat a handful of hotdogs/ sliced chicken, etc and has often times recovered after going over threashold and been able to play the look at that game where my friend feeds non stop for momentary glances at the dog while she walks away.

Her pup ligitimately has a very nervous temperment and seems to have a very hard time recovering from anxiety/ reactivity once the cycle begins, but with that being said even she has managed to make significant success, but for her staying in an apartment environment was not an option, and I suspect her pup would not have lasted long with many other owners.

I'm not saying that you need to change your environment for Tom to down the road be successful at remaining sub-threashold but I just wanted to illustrate that constant exposure to that type of environment makes your job much harder and you should take into account the worst case scenerio situation which could easily pop up if someone happens to let their off or onleash dog run right up to Tom's face. If you choose not to muzzle Tom and he does connect with another dog, you will likely be liable, and because of Tom's breed he might not get a second chance. I'm not saying that to sound harsh, but it is a likely outcome.

Other then that I would keep doing what your doing and hope that the positive gains overcome the setbacks of being thrown into situations where he goes over threashold. Apartments aren't ideal places to work through reactivity, but it is a reality for a lot of owners.

My friend who I was speaking about above recently purchased a treadmill for her pup as a main source of excersise and she only does walks during dead times with tons and tons of high value reinforcement once per week to work with her pup and she is slowly making gains, though in many ways may just be better suited to a quiet country life, which my friend is hoping to achieve in the future.

Best of luck
Kayla
 

milos_mommy

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#9
The thing is, Tom LIKES other dogs. He's met them on-leash and has been super excited, but not aggressive. If one ran up to us off leash, he'd scream, fight, spazz out until it got there, and then he'd just sniff it and wiggle and try to play. It starts out with play-bowing and happy yodeling noises, but once he hits the end of the leash, it turns into melee of him VS. the leash. The behavior isn't aggressive, it's just frustration.

This dog is seriously awesome and I really really hope I can find him a home with a yard, soon. I have no doubt if he had a yard, he'd be able to walk past another dog calmly in a matter of weeks, even less. I just hate how being in this situation is making him worse, and really hope his frustration doesn't cause him to eventually become aggressive towards other dogs.
 

corgipower

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#10
The thing is, Tom LIKES other dogs. He's met them on-leash and has been super excited, but not aggressive. If one ran up to us off leash, he'd scream, fight, spazz out until it got there, and then he'd just sniff it and wiggle and try to play. It starts out with play-bowing and happy yodeling noises, but once he hits the end of the leash, it turns into melee of him VS. the leash. The behavior isn't aggressive, it's just frustration.

This dog is seriously awesome and I really really hope I can find him a home with a yard, soon. I have no doubt if he had a yard, he'd be able to walk past another dog calmly in a matter of weeks, even less. I just hate how being in this situation is making him worse, and really hope his frustration doesn't cause him to eventually become aggressive towards other dogs.
It may be friendly, but the frustration can quickly switch to aggressive behavior, or at least misdirection. And when they're in a reactive frenzy, it can be near impossible to see a bit about to happen in time to prevent it.

If it is play frustration, does he get over threshold with toys? If so, you can use that to work on an off switch and self control in a safe and controlled environment and then work on generalizing it enough to transfer it to reactivity toward other dogs.
 

MandyPug

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#11
He would be an excellent family dog for someone with children or a good "beginner" dog for someone with a yard.
That's from the petfinder ad.

Why on earth would you say a dog with reactivity issues is a good dog for a beginner? Yard or not this dog needs to be trained properly and i don't think a beginner dog owner is going to do know how to do that. Why don't you take some classes with him? Hire a trainer? You don't really seem to know what you're doing and with the breed he is, he cannot afford for you to make a mistake. Get professional help before the dog goes over the top and injures someone or some dog, even accidentally.
 

Brattina88

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#12
I agree with CP... I've seen leashed frustration turn into displacement aggression in the blink of an eye as well. Just... be careful :)
And I didn't see his PF page, but I have to agree with MandyPug. Having a yard is not going to magically cure behavior problems like this... If he needs more exercise, there are always things you can do in the house or around your house before walking him to places where it is more likely to run into a dog. I was actually thinking about making a thread like this, for the "winter / cabin fever " exercise ideas, we're coping pretty well so far, but I have to stay creative.

Also wanted to add... I'm sure you already know, but with the halti - make sure you have a back-up, for example attach a leash also to the collar or a harness just in case. Ellasleads makes great leashes or attachments for stuff like that. I remember when Missy slipped out of hers, and it was properly fitted by the trainer.... it was scary, and she had/has an amazing recall so all I had to do was call her back and she came. But if she had no recall, or high prey drive or anything like that... :eek: It gives me the chills to think about.
 

Kayla

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#13
The thing is, Tom LIKES other dogs. He's met them on-leash and has been super excited, but not aggressive..
While it's great that he has met dogs on leash successfully it's very important to note that excitement and arousal go hand in hand and arousal is often not too far away from aggression, especially when you throw in a leash or a fence and an in-ability for that aroused dog to access the source of it's excitement. Throw in a few days, weeks, months of consistently being put in that scenerio, and boundry frusteration can turn into aggression directed at the source of the arousal but their are other factors to take into consideration like the dog's socilization history, on-going interactions with dogs be it negative or positive and of course breed tendancies and the individual's genes.

There's a saying by Bob Bailey that goes, "Pavlov is always on your shoulder" and refers to classical conditioning always being at work. Every single time Tom experinces boundry frusteration his reaction to future dogs will be based upon past situations of experincing that arousal and frusteration weighed against your hard work at counter conditioning and of course all of the other factors mentioned above such as socilization history, etc.

I don't say that to discourage you as I certainly think you can make alot of progress while he is in your care, but it's important to be aware that with consistent set backs of going over threashold, you will be moving one step forward with your counter conditioning and 3 steps back because of the environment.

I have no doubt if he had a yard, he'd be able to walk past another dog calmly in a matter of weeks, even less.
While taking Tom out of his current environment will certainly help his reactivity where he is not pushed over threashold as much, this will not be a cure all.

It took two years with some serious up's and down's to completely 99% negate (for lack of a better word) Duke's reactivity towards other dogs through positive reinforcement stratigies. It takes time, knowledge and work to set reactive dog's up to succeed and to understand how to handle them during a reaction, how to asses over months whether or not their threashold is consistently improving (I.e they recover quicker from reactions, they react less and they are able to walk closer and closer to their triggers, or are able to handle more intense versions of their triggers without reacting).

It would be misleading to potential adopters to think that Tom is going to be better on-leash once he get's a yard.

Some great games that are still worth playing with Tom everytime you bring him out, is the look at that game, attention games and targetting games.

The look at that game, requires some knowledge from the dog that a marker mean a reward is on it's way. So to get started you'd want to start out by just classically conditioning the marker to mean "reward (food is usually easiest) is coming". For a marker you could use a whistle, a clicker, a word, just make it consistent. A whistle or clicker would be more distinct then a word and more easily transferable to his new owners as your tone and pitch will be different then there's.

To pair a marker just keep your hands still at your side, make the mark and then reach into your pocket to feed him. Try not to move towards your food until after the mark has sounded to draw attention to the mark not your food (which is always more interesting to dogs new to marker training). After a few days most dogs will start to get excited and look at you after they hear the mark.

Now you can start playing the look at that game when your out when Tom notices novel things like a leaf blowing, a person in the distance etc, as long as it isn't an intensely distracting thing because at this stage thats going to be too much.

Mark and reward him constantly when he notices something novely distracting to help begin showing him the context of "You notice something, you hear the mark, you look back at me and get something yummy". Pretty quickly he might just be staring at you. That's ok continue to mark and reward. Your beginning to build your own reinforcement history bank and are classically conditioning the whole scenerio of the game structure.

When you first start using it on his arousing/ distracting stimulus do expect to have to shove the food in his mouth after the mark, until the classical conditioning your are setting up around such scenerio's really takes root thanks to your positive reinforcement bank.

Pretty soon though you can start using it when he is under threashold and see's a dog from afar and you can mark and shove food in his mouth. If you can get this kind of practice in as much as possible you stand the best chance to significantly change his response to the sight of dogs onleash.

Remeber though, as you are building up your own classically conditioned response to the sight of dogs, so is your apartment building by putting Tom in close proximity to other dogs where he get's worked up. It's hard to say which way it will go but it's absolutly worth a shot.

Best of luck!
Kayla
 
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milos_mommy

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#14
That's from the petfinder ad.

Why on earth would you say a dog with reactivity issues is a good dog for a beginner? Yard or not this dog needs to be trained properly and i don't think a beginner dog owner is going to do know how to do that. Why don't you take some classes with him? Hire a trainer? You don't really seem to know what you're doing and with the breed he is, he cannot afford for you to make a mistake. Get professional help before the dog goes over the top and injures someone or some dog, even accidentally.
I would not say a dog with reactivity issues of this caliber (just about every dog I know has reactivity issues of some sort or another) is a good dog for a beginner home. The ad also says he'd be good for a home with children, but because of his size and because he's excitable and has a history of jumping, he will not be going to a home with small children, either. It's unlikely he'll go to an apartment home with no yard, as well. I didn't write all of that petfinder ad, or post it. I imagine parts it came from his ACC profile. We've turned down applications already because they had no experience.

Unless you have advice that's different from a) what I'm already doing, b) what every single person on here has told me I should be doing, c) what I've done successfully multiple times in the past, or d) what the behaviorist I am working with on this has suggested I do, I really don't think it's your place to tell me I don't know what I'm doing.



As for the other replies: Yep I do have him on a backup collar with a double clasp leash and we've been doing "look at that". I know this level of frustration could potentially turn into aggression which is of course why I'm worried about it.

The past few walks have gone well. I also think I've found a really good spot to work from, there's this sort of square-type thingy outside a grocery store down near the water...it overlooks the street so he can see the other dogs but it's pretty far away, I don't think he'd react. No one takes their dogs there because it's for a grocery store, so we'll try that.
 

RD

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#15
Is there anywhere that you can exercise Tom off-lead?

It really sounds like he's got a ton of pent-up energy. "Reactive" dogs are a heck of a lot less reactive when they're tired. :)
 

milos_mommy

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#16
Is there anywhere that you can exercise Tom off-lead?

It really sounds like he's got a ton of pent-up energy. "Reactive" dogs are a heck of a lot less reactive when they're tired. :)
Not off lead, but on a long line (it's 25 feet). I take him to the park to run around, climb on rocks, zoomie about, play in the snow, etc. for 45 minutes (longer when it's not frigid) 4 or 5 times a week.

I don't think it's pent up energy. He's not a very high energy dog, and on top of the long-line exercise, he gets 2 15 minute walks and 1 45 minute-1 hour long walk every day. Plus our 3 or 4 short training sessions. He's completely calm whenever he's off leash or there are no other dogs around.

If it was pent up energy, wouldn't he be awake finding stuff to do throughout the day when it's quiet and getting frustrated at other times, not only when he sees another dog?
 

ihartgonzo

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#17
I would NEVER put a halti on a dog when they hurt themselves trying to get it off. I've seen dogs with constant scratches and raw muzzles and people just rely so much on the halti that they refuse to ditch it. :( I truly feel that haltis can make frustrated, reactive dogs even worse. It made Gonzo much worse and hurt him (whiplash).

Honestly, I would put a good martingale/nylon slip (or even a snug rolled leather collar) on him adjusted at the very top of his neck and time your walks really well. I know when all of my neighbors walk their dogs (9 am, 5 pm and 8-ish pm) and work around that. Not because my dog is reactive but because all of their dogs are. I don't want my dog to start reacting because literally every dog around here does, so I avoid close encounters and use their reactive dogs as a way to practice LAT and focusing on me from afar. This might mean you need to get up at the crack of dawn and be up at midnight for your long walks, then do very short walks when it's completely dead around. You might even want to walk around and look out for any dogs/people before taking him out. Since he is so bad, I would even recommend driving to a different location to practice at a safe distance from other dogs (like a park). How often are you taking classes? Do you have any "growly classes" in your area?

Do you use a clicker? They helped me soooo much with my dogs reactivity. I would up his exercise as much as possible too. My dogs would barely react if they walked past dogs right after getting an hour of good hard running.
 

Romy

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#18
I don't have much to add that other's haven't already said, except about the Rescue Remedy.

After Strider got attacked and we were working through severe leash reactivity issues, RR was a lifesaver. It was NOT a cure all by any means, but it was a helpful tool for improving his threshold while we desensitized him to seeing other dogs.

It was helpful for me to take as well. :eek: When you're getting him ready for a walk and worrying about what he'll do when he sees the other dogs out there, he's already tensing up because of your tension. When you're expecting him to react every time he sees another dog, and bracing to stop his pulling and possible intervene if he goes to lunge at the other dog, he's sensing that your anxiety whenever another dog appears, which all feeds into the loop of reactivity. When both of you are "drugged" lol, both of your responses are taken down a notch in stress level which helps break that loop of anxiety whenever another dog is sighted.

The nice thing about RR is it only takes down the anxiety. It does not cause drowsiness or effect their energy level in any way.

We recently found another company that makes the same product, only it seems to work much better. It was recommended by a local herbologist. She said the woman who makes it was actually apprenticed to the real Dr. Bach before he died and learned how to make it directly from him. I really love her brand. It's called Five-Flower Formula.

FES - five flower formula from Healing Herbs
 

milos_mommy

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#19
I would NEVER put a halti on a dog when they hurt themselves trying to get it off. I've seen dogs with constant scratches and raw muzzles and people just rely so much on the halti that they refuse to ditch it. :( I truly feel that haltis can make frustrated, reactive dogs even worse. It made Gonzo much worse and hurt him (whiplash).

Honestly, I would put a good martingale/nylon slip (or even a snug rolled leather collar) on him adjusted at the very top of his neck and time your walks really well. I know when all of my neighbors walk their dogs (9 am, 5 pm and 8-ish pm) and work around that. Not because my dog is reactive but because all of their dogs are. I don't want my dog to start reacting because literally every dog around here does, so I avoid close encounters and use their reactive dogs as a way to practice LAT and focusing on me from afar. This might mean you need to get up at the crack of dawn and be up at midnight for your long walks, then do very short walks when it's completely dead around. You might even want to walk around and look out for any dogs/people before taking him out. Since he is so bad, I would even recommend driving to a different location to practice at a safe distance from other dogs (like a park). How often are you taking classes? Do you have any "growly classes" in your area?

Do you use a clicker? They helped me soooo much with my dogs reactivity. I would up his exercise as much as possible too. My dogs would barely react if they walked past dogs right after getting an hour of good hard running.
Problem is, he will also scratch at his own neck trying to pull off a regular collar with his paws. And run head first, HARD, into walls or trees or anything in his spazz attack. I guess I could try a harness. I just don't think I'd feel as in-control with a harness as I do with the halti.

As stated, I do walk him at 6 am and midnight and during the day when mostly everyone is at work and we usually don't run into others. Since I've had Tom I haven't gotten more than 5 hours of sleep at a time :p. I live in the city, and don't drive, so there is no where to take him except the parks I can walk to...but again, I only take him there late at night, and maybe we'll see another dog, maybe we won't. Last night we had two really good interactions, from a medium-ish distance (15-20 feet).

It doesn't really matter how tired he is, even if I get him tired enough that he's unwilling to run around anymore, lags behind when walking on-leash, and flops down the minute we stop, he still reacts when another dog comes by. I am exercising him as much as possible and it's enough exercise to tire out a malinois puppy ;) (maybe not quite. But close.)

Thanks Romy, for the input. I am trying to remain calm, keeping my body and shoulders relaxed, not tightening up the leash, or bracing (I keep the leash wrapped around one arm with the other hand on it the entire time, the leash is loose but it doesn't give him a lot of wiggle room). If we see another dog approaching I'm trying to just fluidly turn and say "let's go" in a neutral, upbeat tone.

I've worked with dogs with human reactivity issues on rescue remedy before, and it's worked really, really well.
 

ihartgonzo

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#20
I would definitely be giving him RR and/or Benadryl, in that case... :( and honestly, I would rather a dog was scratching at his neck than his face. But I despise Haltis, so mehhh. A harness (even an easy walk) gives you way less control.

I feel like it would be a really good idea to get him into a structured class setting, even if you just ask to practice around classes that are going on a few days a week. They can set him up for success rather than failure. Some playdates with super social, stable dogs (I would lend you Fozzie if you were closer) would probably help too. Of course, with lots of supervision and a deterrant on hand at first. Doing parallel walks with other dogs, first from a distance and slowly getting closer, would probably greatly benefit him.
 

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