Missed this post!
I do either capital or not. I realize you're talking about all companion breeds but I personally pretty much ONLY have experience in papillons so I don't feel I can answer for the others.
Okay, just wanted to clarify. And in that case, I'll revert back to what I am used to
To me drive is essential to papillons. In my experience comparing with my friends who have paps and other toys there's a difference in temperament too. Hard to describe but there's a distinct difference there to me at least... But there really has to be a defining difference between companion type personalities though. They're not all the same so to me, preserving whatever temperament qualities are in the breed is just as essential as preserving the look or what have you. You can't just say 'companion temperament' as there isn't one. You have to breed for something more specific than that imo.
It comes down to me that you have to define 'companion'. I hear people debate about if breeding for a good 'companion' is enough and I am not so sure. I don't think there Is a good 'companion' that is universal. I keep thinking of a conversation I had with someone who has pomeranians and had to watch someone's papillons for a while... Both companion breeds and actually quite related. Her response to that whole thing was she'd NEVER have another papillon stay in her home. She found them unbearable in their energy and couldn't figure out how to make them stop getting into things. They drove her crazy. Me on the other hand, I enjoy that kind of dog and there's many other companion breeds I wouldn't want to have because their energy level would be too low.
I think if you're breeding companions you need to have a type of personality you are going for. You need to know the breed and what kind of temperament is appropriate for the breed.
I am not saying companionship is not a good reason, it's just got to be defined in a more strict sense than just 'companion'.
Are you stating that in disagreement to my assessment? Because that was essentially what I was trying to say as well. I believe that there are certain elements of temperament that each breed possesses that separates them from others, and without those traits, a dog is not an ideal representative of the breed. Unfortunately, however, everyone will have a different opinion on what the ideal should be, and on what a good companion is, or what makes a good companion, or what it is about the Papillon specifically that makes it a good companion. Because of this, I wondered why, or if, I guess, anyone would say that one breeder's ideal is less worthy of being bred towards than another's, for toy breeds especially.
I think it is nice that you feel comfortable using agility as one way to prove that a Papillon possesses enough to be a better representative of its breed than another untitled one. But does the same hold true for Pugs? Maltese? Pekingnese? Pomeranians? Shih Tzus? What about an agility title make that Pug, or Pekingnese, or Maltese, a better representative of its breed than another one that is not titled in agility? Yes, the dog stands out, but so would a human aggressive American Pit Bull Terrier that has been titled to a SchH3.
I know many breeders with a very solid, very clear vision of their ideal and a goal for the breed. They have been in the breed for 30-40 years, training and working with these dogs, and have personally worked with dogs of old now hailed as "greats". I trust these breeders to recognize such elements of temperament more than I would trust a title to prove it, within my breed. But of others, I do not know.
Well PERSONALLY in my breed I look for breeders whose dogs are doing things. Now, they don't all do the same things. Summer's breeder has dogs doing obedience and agility but lower levels and then all her dogs are working therapy dogs. Her dogs are a bit lower key in general than Mia's breeder and they're also less aloof around strangers.
Is a Papillon breeder who only breeds dogs titled in conformation a "bad" breeder for you? Or, at least, would you ever recommend such a breeder to another looking into Papillons? If you knew a breeder who bred Papillons who did well in the show ring, but did not possess a great deal of the drive you personally wish to see, and were not titled in agility, does that mean you would not recommend them to others, as well?
Mia's breeder has dogs out working as service dogs, and has produced many top agility/sports papillons. To me seeing consistent performance dogs (and I can watch them all on youtube) coming from the lines and breeder means that temperament is there. I'm not sure how else you WOULD judge that though in any breed... Dogs with the ability to perform at a high level being produced is a sign that the breeder is doing something right. JMO.
I don't know how you would in this instance, either, which is why I asked. In other breeds I do feel that watching a video of a German Shepherd or Belgian Malinois training for and then competing in a protection sport is a better predictor of working ability (depending on the type of work required) than a video of a dog doing agility would be. I guess the problem here is that we are thinking about this coming from different directions - I do NOT believe that dogs with the ability to perform at a high level in Schutzhund is
necessarily an indicator of a breeder doing something right for the breed. The top names in my sport of choice are not breeders I would ever care to get a puppy from, to be honest, even though ironically, the sport was originally intended to be not a sport, but an assessment of the working dog.
Well I don't think they're comparable at all. You'll find laid back paps easily. (Mia's littermate is fairly laid back (but I hear ornery)). Are you breeding specifically FOR incredibly docile papillons that have no drive or is it just a side effect of things? Rose is laid back, but Beau and Summer are not (siblings). You're going to get outliers so to speak in every breed.
My mistake, hearing about Mia has completely altered my view on Papillons! Didn't realize that they could also easily be laid back and docile. :lol-sign:
I guess then it would only be comparable to someone declaring they wanted a laid back, couch potato German Shepherd Dog, because GSDs are not supposed to be laid back dogs.
So for the sake of the question, yes, let's say someone wants to look for a breeder with Papillons that possess no drive and are incredibly docile with a temperament that you do not find ideal or suitable for the Papillon breed.