What am I doing Wrong...

[mctraill]

I have a 2 1/2 year old lab mix, which we adopted 4 months ago. At the time of adopting she had, had no training at all, she usually picks things up really well, but not this.

I walk my dog every morning in the local park where there are many distractions of people, squirrels, birds and Deer. Its mainly the squirrels and the deer she likes.

I am trying to teach my dog to walk/run on an extender lead without pulling for the last 3 weeks. I looked on one of the websites that one of you posted and found it very good.

Here's what I do.

When my dog pulls I stop wait for a few seconds and then call her name ( only once), if she doesnt start walking back to me, I just wait until she does. When she turns to walk back to me, I click and then walk on. My dog is not interested in treats when out in the park, to many squirrels for her to attempt to chase.
Most of the time I only get to take around 4 steps before I am stopping, which means that it takes me over an hour to walk a distance that would normally take me 45 minutes.
When there is something she wants to chase I turn the other way and say lets go, she usually follows.

What am I doing wrong as after 3 weeks I dont see any improvement in her?

 

[Herschel]

Why are you using a retractable lead? For a lot of dogs, the tension of the leash pulling them back makes them want to pull more.

Keep up the hard work. As soon as she starts to pull, stop, turn, or do something else to make her focus on you. We used to keep treats in our hand by our hip and as soon as Herschel would start to pull or look focus on something else, we would say "ah ah" and show him the treat (while still walking). Then he would look at us, walk in line with our hip, and get a treat.

 

[MafiaPrincess]

Since flexi leashes require a dog to pull to get leash to roam on, it's a little oxymoronic to want your dog not to pull if that is what you are using. You'd be better of teaching your dog to walk nice on a standard 6 foot leash, and getting it to be solid before thinking about a flexi. Even then depending upon the dog it might undo previous training in time.

 

[Doberluv]

How many nice steps is she taking before you reinforce her? (c/t?) Try raising the value of the treats. Take her out when she is somewhat hungy. Before you go to where these high distractions are, practice where there are not so many enticing distractions. Most people do not reinforce enough...every step, then every two steps. Try exercising her first before you work. Play fetch, let her run and get the zoomies out.... slightly tired, but not too much.

I don't recommend a retractable leash either for the same reason mentioned above. There is always tension in it and she learns that that tension is what causes her to move forward. In other words, tension every step of the way equals getting to walk. Use a regular leash and before she gets to the end, stop. Don't say anything, don't call her. Just wait quietly till she gives you slack, (she will. She'll wonder what's up, turn and look at you and probably come closer) then imediately resume walking and reinforcing her nice steps. (frequently) You can also make lots of turns. Get a squeeky toy and entice her to turn quickly with you.....like a game. Make it super fun for her to stay near you.

At other times teach her "watch me." Incorporate that into the walking.

Again, she can't learn to walk nicely where all the activity is until she gets lots of practice where there isn't so much commotion. Dogs don't generalize well at all. It's like a whole new ball game to her out there. Anytime she gets to take one step while there's tension in the leash is a step backward. She needs that payoff (the walking forward) to be given ONLY when there is slack in the leash or where you want her. Keep the leash shorter if you don't want her way ahead of you. It's harder for her to pay attention when she's way out there. Then at other times, you can give her some "free" time where you give her permission (put it on cue) to go sniff a bush or do what she likes as long as she doesn't pull. Then back to "lets go".....nice walking.

 

[Dulce Pit Bull]

First, it's going to take MUCH longer than 3 weeks.

Second, I would take her to dog training class.

Also, as the others said, a retractable leash is NOT the way to go. It's made so that the dog has as much freedom as they want, and can wander. It's not the way to start out training.

I use a 24" leash, and a prong for training, and walks, etc. I teach her heal, wait, stay, etc.

Also, stopping, and calling her name is not telling her what you want. She hears her name, and thinks "What?" But that isn't telling her WHAT to do.
Come up with a command, such as "By me" or "heel" or "here"

Get a short leash, and practice these commands. And don't exact to get a real "run" in, as she is learning, and that's what's most important

 

[Doberluv]

I don't recommend a prong collar either unless you absolutely cannot control your dog and it's dangerous. If you have a fenced yard, you can start out with no leash at all. If you make it fun and use high value treats and reinforce for small improvements, you can get a very nice casual walk and later on a very clean heel this way. Don't try for a tight heel until she can walk on a loose leash. Use two different cue words. Ie: "lets go" for a casual walk and "heel" for a formal heel...when you get to that.

You make it like a game. Then you can snap on the leash and do the same thing. Try to avoid force with the leash, pulling her into position. Let her choose and find out what gets her the goodies and what doesn't. After enough reinforcement, she'll choose the way you want her to.

Don't go to the park for now. Find someplace where she can pay enough attention and find what motivates her and use it to your advantage. Set her up for success instead of creating an impossibe situation for her and then using a prong or other aversive to punish her.

 

[Dulce Pit Bull]

What's wrong with the prong?

 

[Doberluv]

It's an aversive. It causes the dog to "behave" in order to avoid pain or discomfort. I want my dog to work to earn a reward. I don't like avoidance to be part of my dogs' mindset. It ruins momentum in training and takes a lot of the fun out of it. I've used a prong in the past. I've used more aversives in the past....done it both ways and the difference in what I see now with my dogs is vastly improved. And the way I believe and have found which works much more effectively is by not causing any pain, discomfort or excessive force. I prefer to motivate the dog, using the principles of operant and classical conditioning and steering away from punishment of that type.

 

[Dulce Pit Bull]

Hmm...well my entire class uses them, so something must be working.

Mine isn't treat motivated. She isn't motivated by anything. She will not focus if there are other dogs around. I've found this is the only thing that has worked.

 

[Doberluv]

If she weren't motivated by anything, she'd lose the will to survive wouldn't she? The specie would become extinct. LOL.

You just haven't found what motivates her. She needs to learn how to walk in low distractions before she can walk in high distractions.

Class is hard. There you are and all this is happening, so I understand that it is very difficult in those situations. (been there, done that) However, they make no pull harnesses which at least don't jab them in the neck...which you could use when you're forced into these high distraction situations. Then at home, training would take place without that so she doesn't get dependent on it. The dog will learn that only when the prong is on, does she have to walk the way you want. It won't train her. It will only control her.

 

[Dulce Pit Bull]

Mmmk. Well pulling isn't my issue, it's correction.

But you have your opinions, I have mine. THanks for the input.

 

[Doberluv]

Correction? It's punishment and it's not necessary to have a well trained dog. I don't have to correct my dog and he's at a rather high level of obedience and does agility. I can't correct my dog when he's not on a leash or he's in the distance and he's explicitly obedient. I have used motivation and reward techniques with him and not "corrections." It's all fun and games for him. He learns things very quickly because he's motivated and doesn't have to worry about what's going to happen to him. He can concentrate on what we're doing better and is happier. Like I said, I've done it both ways over my 47 years with dogs. You can do how you like. But for others reading...for the original poster who want more effective ways of training based on the science of learning, I like to explain these methods.

 

[Dulce Pit Bull]

Ok! I'm not arguing with you here! I'm glad you know everything about training, and I'm glad you know what you're doing. That's great. I'm not going to argue that

 

[elegy]

mctraill, do you have somewhere to walk her where there are not so many distractions? do you have a backyard for her to learn in and to exercise in off-leash? or are you one of those people who has to leash-walk in high-distraction environments for exercise?

because i think how you manage the situation is going to depend a lot on those things.

either way, i'd get rid of the flexi leash. that's not helping you out at all.

i've been in the situation with dogs who were wackos on leashes but who had to be leashed just to go out to potty. i didn't have the luxary of slow work without a leash etc etc. the dogs had to go out, period. so i did use prong collars on them, and i did use corrections with them. i also used rewards (food, generally) to mark the moments when the leash was loose and they were doing the right thing, but the first step was to get them PHYSICALLY under control.

 

[mctraill]

I wouldnt want to use anything that would hurt my dog, after all I belive rightly or wrongly that dogs are like children, they only know what we teach them and it takes time to learn, I just dont want to confuse my dog and I want to do the best by her.
I have a fairly large garden, where we practice a lot of things like, sit, heel, fetch etc etc.I thought it was time to move her on as she does these things really well, I have taken out on the street where there is a lot of building work going on and she does Ok there as well. So I thought the park is the next step up, plus its somewhere different.
I used a retractable leash as I thought it would give her more freedom, and I could use it as a way of practicing recall with her, but I didnt think about all the things you said. I will go back to the long leash I have.

 

[Doberluv]

Dogs are not quite like children (at least older ones) in that they don't have the ability to unravel complex thought processes. They tend to tie things together....events with what is happening in the envirnoment. So say, a dog is getting yanked on with something that causes discomfort or some other rotten feeling at the same time that some other thing is going on. He may tie that rotten feeling with the other thing, maybe a man with a beard who's walking past. Or it may be with something he's doing which is not the behavior you're trying to target....since they do more than one thing at once. It may take several punishments before he singles out what you're talking about. We may know what we mean, but the dog doesn't. He's guessing until he's been reinforced many times for the behavior you want. That's the only thing that makes him repeat that behavior...a reward which is enough of a motivator that he tends to repeat that heeling or coming or watever....a favorable consequence.

That's why positive reinforcement is so nice. You may be reinforcing a behavior which is not what you meant and it still takes some repitition to have the dog learn which behavior you're targetting, but no particular harm is done to his psyche. He may end up with a few behaviors you didn't want to reinforce, but they can be undone later by good timing of reinforcers. It's much better to be wrong with a reward than it is to be wrong with a collar pinch.

If you want to give her some freedom, go ahead. Make it obvious that you're changing leashes, from a leash to a long line, add a cue word and give her permission to zoom around a little. Just make sure that when you ask her to walk nicely, that you don't allow pulling. You could even start out with the freedom so she can get a little running around out of her system before working with her.

 

[mctraill]

Is this why when your teaching new things you should start in a place thats quite with no or very little distractions, and build up to more distractions slowly.
I started before I got my dog on the path to having a lifestyle change, I started walking, then power walking and now I want to move on to running, I would like my dog to run with me as part of getting her fit as the first 2 years of her life she was kept in a crate which was far to small for her all day, so she very unfit,is she better on the shorter leash for running?

 

[Doberluv]

Yes, I would think a shorter leash for running would be best. It sounds like you're doing great with her.

 

[mctraill]

Being a first time dog owner I sometimes wish I could have one of you guys here in person to double check.
Just one last question, is it alright for me to click when my dog is good without giving her a treat or should she always get a treat when I click, its just that she isnt that food orientated when she is in the park.

 

[Doberluv]

What can you give her that she loves, that motivates her? Sometimes you need a higher value treat; fresh meat tidbits, hot dog, cheese (tiny pieces) or a favored toy for a few minutes play. But a click means that a reward (must be a reinforcer....something that changes behavior) is forthcoming. If you just click and give her nothing, the click will lose it's meaning and prime. It must be followed with a reward. A click is only a secondary reinforcer to bridge the gap between marking a behavior and the dog receiving her primary reinforcer...the thing that causes her to repeat the behavior in the future. If she's so distracted that she's uninterested in engaging with you, then you need to change her environment to a place where she can maintain some attention on you....at least if you are going to be training her. If you want to go to the park just for fun and to get her zoomies out, then don't expect her to obey you at this point. She needs to learn in a lower distraction area first.

The only reward she is probably interested in while in the park is seeing some other dog or some other thing that you sometimes can't use for a reward. She needs practice and loads of it in a more controlled environment first until her attention on you becomes the default behavior rather than the environment being the default motivator.