Thought this would be an interesting subject...

[Angel Chicken]

Growing up, none of my dogs were fixed. Not my fault, but my parents.

Kona was spayed as soon as we had the money (the time of year was bad for us). I got a scare, thought she had gotten pregnant at a mere 7 months of age. I was sooo scared for her and I. I was scared to even post about it on here, so I shied away from the forums for awhile. As I am against taking any kind of life, I planned on letting her have the litter and selling the pups for a small fee when they were ready. Momof7 helped me out alot during those days, she was my rock!!

Anywho... 63 days came... and passed... and I figured she had a falsie. Not 2 weeks after that, in she went to get spayed.

Now that she is spayed, I have to say from now on, if the dog isn't show/breeding quality, he/she WILL be sputered. I do not do a whole lot with my dogs (occasional hunting, agaility) but not showing or anything like that, so I am all for it.

 

[skKi]

With my personal dogs, if I get them from a pup I wait until about 2 years old. Those hormones are there for a reason.

Any rescue is fixed before leaving my house, no matter what the age. When I foster a litter of puppies of kittens I keep them until 12 weeks for that reason. 12 weeks is still way to early IMO, but the risks outweight the benefits.

What risks? What benefits?
Ooh, I'm being kind of annoying here - asking people to elaborate so much - but I'm just a bit surprised that most people seem against early speuters. If there are problems, I should really reconsider getting a dog from this breeder that speuters before she sends the pups out.
Are there negative effects in the long run if you don't let the hormones do their thing?

 

[joce]

I think there are negative effects when a dog is altered early.

If a dog is altered early it doens't grow right. the bones can illongen and there are sooo many cases of spay incontinence now.Dysplasia is more likely and I heard recently that even in little dogs the kneecap problme is more likely with early alter,not sure on that though-I thought it was more of an issue with larger breeds. you hear a dog fixed before six months has no sexual organ cancer but I think the other cancers that rise with an early alter are much more dangerous.

I think dogs spayed early never really grow up-they act puppyish and stuck in that ackward stage forever. I can tell a HUGE diffrence in dobes spayed early.

As far as the bone growth goes I actually know of some large breed breeders now who say alter later.

I would never go to a breeder who didn't trust me to keep the dog intact untill I felt comfortable fixing them.

 

[Laurelin]

We have half and half. 2 intact males and 1 spayed female one neutered male.

Obviously the papillons are intact for showing reasons, the other two dogs are just pets and are therefore fixed. Neither intact male has been a problem.

 

[GSDluver4lyfe]

Cheko was the first dog I have ever nuetered. All of our family pets stayed intact and had no problems. No litters, no agression towards one another, and only one (Sam a terrier/poodle mix) developed cancer (at 14 years of age) and got him nuetered and never had another problem. He just died last year at the age of 18. He was around longer than me. RIP my little Sammie.

Ryot will stay intact for a while . I'll probably nueter when he is older for medical reasons.

 

[skKi]

You can specify that you'd like to alter later, but if you don't, she does it for you.
Early speuters increase the risk of other cancers? That I didn't know. The growth thing I'm not sure about. The early/later speutered dogs all grew about the same (we get 80% of them as puppies, so I get to see them all grow) in my opinion.
I haven't seen much of the stuck-in-a-puppy-mentality type thing yet. Although I do notice a difference in behaviour between the two, as in the later speuters seem more "grown-up" to me because they do the adult dog thing, like urine mark, hump and all that other fun stuff.
The earlies do engage in the occasional hump if they so feel the need, but other than that, I suppose they don't do much of the mature stuff. The early speuters are generally the more hard-core playing dogs, but what's wrong with a dog that loves to play?
If you're talking maturity in the training aspect, I see no difference between the two. Both are pretty even when it comes to learning and listening.

 

[Red_ACD_for_me]

Here is a good article on S/N considerations "early" etc.

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

 

[Sweet72947]

Daisy we had fixed at 6 months, and Benji we had fixed when we got him, probably at around a year. My cats are fixed too. I'm never gonna show or anything so all my animals will always be fixed. That, and I will probably get all or most of my future pets from FOHA (Friends of Homeless Animals), and everything that leaves there is speutered first!

 

[StillandSilent]

Lilly, Radar and Puss are all fixed. Lilly and Radar were both done at six monthes and Puss at 4 years, right before we adopted him. No issues with the dogs, but Puss does enjoy humping legs when the urge strikes him.
I have only seen one case of pyometria at work. The dog had no symptoms, but was on the list for her mandatory spay. Her pus filled uterus was one of the nastiest things I have seen in a long time. I just thank DOYC that we got to her in time.

 

[RD]

I don't feel comfortable altering my dog before they're physically mature. I do think that those hormones have some impact on how the dog grows. Mentally, I don't really notice a difference. My intact dog does not hump or mark inappropriately because I don't *allow* him to. Don't confuse testicles with a lack of training - it's entirely possible to keep an intact dog as a well-mannered pet.

I'm not sure why people have a problem with leg-hiking. My dog hikes his leg when he pees outside. It's not a big deal. He doesn't do it inappropriately. He does make frequent stops during our hikes to mark rocks and such, but he knows he's allowed to and seems to enjoy it, so I let him. *shrug* I don't understand why people think it's such a huge problem.

I had a spayed bitch that used to hike her leg.

 

[Zoom]

What's to cringe about? I work with a considerable amount of dogs, many of which are early spay/neuter, and the only difference I've noticed is urine marking and intense sniffing/searching. The earlies rarely ever (aside from a select few) urine mark, and have little interest in rigorously scouting the "potty area" every time we take them out to pee.

All the poop eaters at the moment were late spays/neuters, although we had a poodle a few months ago who was an early that was also a poop eater.
The gangliest of dogs we have are all late spays/neuters. Although I'm sure both of those behaviours have nothing to do with the fact that they were spayed later than earlier, and has more to do with the dog.

I don't see the same flaws in the early speuter dogs that you're seeing. What behaviours are you talking about that you say it's "too bad" that some breeders do mandatory early speuters? I think it's great!

I too work with dogs, both training and running a very busy boarding resort/daycare. All things I'm talking about here are behaviors I see on a daily, or at least weekly, basis.

Aside from the coprophagia and gangly, which I think negatively impacts the joints later on because the bones grow longer than the joints orginally allowed for--someone already mentioned the permanent "young puppy" phase. It may sound like it's cute, but when you have a 100 pound dog flinging himself around like he's still 20 pounds because he doesn't have the mental capacity to understand or have body awareness, it's not as cute. They don't seem to understand corrections either (I'm talking dog administered here, not people with collars) and usually end up being the cause of more scuffles and fights because they just don't "get" how to properly behave. They think they still have the "puppy excuse" and other dogs take one look and think "You're a big kid, act like it" and get huffy.

I've also been talking to a lady in a local rescue group who is starting to see more and more dogs with lowered or compromised immune systems. These dogs are always the ones that pick up kennel cough, infections, mange, etc and even her vet thinks it's stemming from too early speutering. The hormones needed to fully develop the immune system just aren't there.

Am I against speuter? Far from it! There are few people, like I said before, with the capabilities to properly manage an intact dog. However, 5-6 months is enough time to allow for more of the necessary hormones and still get most of the dogs fixed before thoughts of, or capabilities for, breeding start to emerge.

 

[J's crew]

What risks? What benefits?
Ooh, I'm being kind of annoying here - asking people to elaborate so much - but I'm just a bit surprised that most people seem against early speuters. If there are problems, I should really reconsider getting a dog from this breeder that speuters before she sends the pups out.
Are there negative effects in the long run if you don't let the hormones do their thing?

I wouldn't rule out a breeder that has her pups sent out already altered. I think it works for alot of breeds and ensures that noone will breed their dog. Which is why I am ok with it for my rescue's.

But, in my breed (Rottweilers) there have been studies that show there is a increased risk in early spay/neuter for osteosarcoma. I can't find the link right now but here is a part of it.

Influence of Gender and timing of Gonadectomy on risk for appendicular bone sarcoma in Rottweilers

Cooley DM, Beranek B, Glickman LT, Waters DJ.
Departments of Veterinary Clinical Sciences and Veterinary Pathobiology Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907

Background: The role of sex hormones in bone sarcomagenesis has not been extensively studied. In a previous study using the Veterinary Medical Database (VMDB), Ru et al. (Vet J 1998:156 ??-39) found a significantly increased risk for osteosarcoma in castrated males and spayed females compared with sexually intact dogs. However, this VMDB-based study could not evaluate whether age at neutering significantly influenced osteosarcoma risk. Purpose: To determine if gender or lifetime duration of gonadal exposure influences the risk for appendicular bone sarcoma in Rottweilers. Methods: Data were obtained from owners of 746 purebred Rottweilers as part of a nationwide, population based study. Each dog owner completed a questionnaire regarding gender neuter status, age at spay or castration, bone tumor occurence, age at diagnosis, current vital status and age of death. The incidence of appendicular bone sarcoma per 1000 dog years at risk was determined for intact males, castrated males, intact females, and spayed females. The relative risk (RR) and 95% confidence limit of appendicular bone sarcoma was calculated by dividing the incidence rate for each gender-neuter category by the incidence rate for intact males (reference category; rr=1.0). For males and females, the influence of lifetime exposure to gonadal hormones on bone sarcoma was determined by comparison of the incidence of four subgroups stratified by age at neutering. Results: Appendicular bone sarcoma affected 111 of 746 (14.9%) Rottweilers. The RR for bone sarcoma was 1.64 for castrated males, 1.36 for spayed females and 1.04 for intact females. Females spayed at <1 year of age had a significantly increased risk for appendicular bone sarcoma compared with intact females (RR=2.21). Similarly, males castrated at <1 year of age had a significantly increased risk for bone sarcoma compared with intact males (RR=3.12%) Conclusions: In this population-based study, Rottweilers that underwent gonadectomy at <1 year of age had a significantly increased risk for bone sarcoma. These observations may be explained by either a direct effect of sex hormones on skeletal homeostasis or by indirect effects on body conformation or physical activity. Alternately, confounding factors unique to dogs that undergo early spay or castration may account for this association.


I have the ability and know how to effectively contain my personal dogs and can make sure they won't breed. Not everyone can though.

 

[BostonBanker]

At what age are most dogs capable of actually breeding? Females obviously at their first heat, right? Is that about 8 months/1 year?

What about males? At what point are all the...mechanisms working?

I'm not sure why people have a problem with leg-hiking.

I have no issues with it normally. My Bedlington was neutered at six months, and would mark every 6 feet or so on a walk. That doesn't bother me. The main reason I wanted a female was because so many male dogs mark in the barn. I don't really blame them - it's an awful lot like "outside", and the owners usually aren't paying enough attention to deal with the problem. It's bad enough having to constantly pick up bales of hay and bags of bedding dripping with urine, but we had a dog mark someone's $3500 saddle:yikes: . Now, I'm sure that's not a huge issue for many people, but that is my personal objection to leg-lifting!

 

[Danegirl2208]

Chloe was spayed after her first heat, i had no reason for waiting so long, honestly i was just lazy about getting it done.

Malakai is intact, and will be neuterd here in the next couple of months, he is almost 2. I too prefer to hold off on neutering. Havent had one problem with him.. he has never once lifted his leg in the house or wandered off (not like he could anyways)

 

[oc_spirit]

I''m all for s/n a pet but a working dog Id rather leave intact. So since the rest of my dogs will be working dogs all will remain intact unless a health reason suggests a reaosn for it to be better to s/n that dog.

I have been told by various mentors that an intact dog recovers quicker from illness and injury than an s/n one. I''m not sure how factual that is but I understand it and believe it and until a VET proves me wrong I''ll stick with it. Also like others have said, the hormones are there for a reason. On top of that one cant truly determine whether a dog is breedable or not until they reach FULL maturity. A 6 month old pup might look like a horrible breeding option but once he fills out and grows up he could become the best dog on your property. I dont want to take that risk again (its what happened to OC).

OC was neutered at 6months per signed contract with the breeder. My breeder came to visit him just after he had the surgery and as soon as she saw him she was kicking herself in the butt for having me neuter him because to her he was the best she had ever seen and would have loved to see him in the ring. Others have seconded her opinion including judges. Oh well...whats done is done, he was bought as a pet.

Ronan came to me intact and will remain as such unless there is a health issue. I make sure that he never has the chance to create an accident and am always on top of him around females in heat. He doesnt hound females either. He will actually look to me for PERMISSION before going to investigate a bitch in heat. I know not to expect this with any of the other intact dogs I work with but it is a nice thing. None of the other sled dogs I work with are neutered either.

 

[skKi]

Thanks, everyone, for explaining this to me so thoroughly. I'd like to clarify that I'm not trying to discard any of your opinions (in case it seems like I am), but I'm genuinely curious and want to understand as much as I can.

Zoom - I work at a similar facility, except I'm not a trainer, I merely set up and attend classes to observe.

Although apparently studies say that early speuters cause disproportionate, or gangly bodies, I'm leaning to believe it's not the soul reason for it. Like I said, the gangliest of our dogs happen to be later speuters (not saying it's the cause). Most articles agree that doing the procedure early causes more growth than normal (the ganglies), but usually say it's merely a fraction of an inch more than if it were to be done later. Would that fraction more really be a large factor of increase in the problems listed? I would think that breeding lines have more to do with the probability of getting things like hip displaysia.

As for the adult puppy behaviour, that should be able to be fixed with training, right? Maybe not. I agree, the early speuter dogs are more puppy-like during play, and with a room of 35-40 dogs, it is very likely to cause fights if the situation is not controlled right away. But it can be controlled, provided you monitor the dogs carefully and step in if it gets to be too much.
The early speuter dogs are capable of learning, though, from what I've seen. If they bound over clumsily to a dog at rest, they will get a sharp bark in the face, and my dogs (not mine, but you know, from my work) learn not to do it again. And they won't.
It's not like they're stuck in a 14 week old state in all aspects.
It's very possible to train them not to jump and all that. Most of our early speuters have grown into well-rounded young adults (most sitting at about 2 years right now), albeit a bit more youthful at first glance behaviour-wise in some cases.

The lower immunity is a bit concerning; I haven't heard of this yet.

Clearly my observations are much different from many other peoples'.
In any case, I've got much more research to do before getting a puppy, and you can bet I'll be debating amongst myself about this neutering thing a lot more than I thought I would!

Thanks for the brain workout, guys

 

[doberkim]

spay/neuter is surrounded by a lot of things that people "heard" from someone but have no actual foundation to prove it.

chris zinks' article is frought with misleading quips from papers that in no way actually stated what chris implies. chris actually doesnt tell you that the "cancer" article is the one that another poster already mentioned - in the MOST LIKELY BREED to get the cancer. if i had a rottie, **** straight i would think twice about when it was neutered - but that has little to do with OSA in other breeds. the estimates put out last year was something like 60-70% of all dogs that get OSA *are* rotties.

spay incontinence in animals bound to get it, are going to get it whether or not they are spayed early. i know intact females that are incontinent, i also know males (neutered and intact) that are incontinent.

the growth differential is supposedly something like 1/4" - do you think most people know what that 1/4 " looks like?

the neonatal behavior is also something i dont buy - ive worked in vet clinics for a decade now, and ive seen juvenile behavior in just about every breed whether intact or not - for some breeds, its simply part of the breed!

what people do with their own personal pets is something i chime in on, but its their decision as to when to speuter - i dont push for early/pediatric. but on rescues, i have no qualms - speutered before the go to forever homes. no ifs, ands or buts.

 

[BlackPuppy]

My black puppy is 5 years old and intact. It's not that I haven't tried to neuter him, I've already made two appointments to, but it just hasn't happened yet for different reasons. He was 2 when I got him and was training for protection work, that's the original reason he wasn't neutered when I got him.

His next neuter appointment is in March. This time I think it's finally going to happen. But even though intact, he's a perfect dog. Yes, he does like to sniff and mark stuff. We go for our walks without a leash. He usually has an agenda of which streets he wants to walk down, for sniffing reasons, but if I want to go a different direction, he's fine with that. Once, we went to a seminar with a female in heat. He was very interested in the smells, but made no attempt to find the female.

The only drawback I've had so far, is recently his prostrate is slightly enlarged, just enough that the vet can feel it protruding into the rectum. Once he's neutered, the lack of hormones is supposed to shrink it down to normal.

 

[ACooper]

Phoebe was a rescued pound dog, and therefore spayed when we brought her home at 8-9 months.

Orson is 9 months now, and was rescued from a bad situation when he was a puppy. As of now he is still intact, but will be neutered when he is mature. We are thinking about 18-24 months. Since Phoebe will not have a heat issue, we see no complications in putting off Orson's fix for awhile.

I have seen that overseas (europe) that spaying/neutering is not the norm but the exception............but they do not have the animal population problems we have here.

 

[dr2little]

I am and always will be 100% on the spay/neuter side. I see first hand all of the negatives associated with leaving dogs intact (unless showing and in controlled environments), and aside from the anecdotal stories to the contrary, see no positives at all. First hand in doing what I do every day, I see the behavior issues that crop up all too frequently with intact males. Issues that could have been avoided and are often in a large part corrected by simply neutering. Secondly, and one that bares bolding, wandering...check out your local shelter intakes on any given day and see how many are intact bitches and dogs. To me that alone should be reason enough for people not intending to breed, to speuter. I hear all the time how even breeders "accidentally" lost an intact dog. People forget how strong the urge can be for a dog who wants to breed and even those who think it would never happen to them, have a dog get loose.
Here's our city pound today, scroll down past the first 4 or so dogs..http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server...erid=2&in_hi_ObjectID=267&in_hi_OpenerMode=2&

I also have to add that I absolutely believe that to keep a dog intact and not intend to breed is cruel. Think about what matters to an animal, any animal...food, water, sex. If you don't intend to breed, respect the fact that not allowing a dog to do what their hormones tell them that they should, is at the very least unkind, and for some torturous.