Show bred Malinois
- Thread starter Tahla9999
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No, they aren't. YET. give it some time. Dumb down the breed for a few generations and see what's left. It's happend to every single breed before, why do you think Mal's will be different? Every working dog that has gained acceptance into the show world has been divided into 2 breeds or two different registries.
Mal's have only been on a small percentage of the dog world's radar, other than working people, for a very short time. Give it another decade or so and just pray a good movie or some news story doesn't come out and pump them up even more.
Mal's have only been on a small percentage of the dog world's radar, other than working people, for a very short time. Give it another decade or so and just pray a good movie or some news story doesn't come out and pump them up even more.
The culture in Belgians is a bit difference than it is in other breeds. Even in the Tervs and Groens, most breeders are still DOING things with their dogs. In fact, the ABTC's motto is "A well-balanced Tervuren has a CH (championship) on one end and a UDT (Utility Dog Tracker) on the other."
The future may change, but overall, the breeders of bench bred Belgians are MUCH more responsible than their equivalents in other breeds. The overwhelming majority of Belgians showing up in rescue are working bred rejects. It's not the show breeders that are letting the dogs go to just anybody.
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Malinois should not be owned by most people, I don't think they should even be in shows. They are not normal dogs. The Border Collie Association in Canada fought the CKC (and lost) because they wanted to keep the working ability of the dog. Showing has never done any breed any good. And show Mals are watered down dogs that, if you want to be successful shower then get a poodle or a kerry, not a Belgian.
The JRTs have managed to stay out for the most part. The problem with the BC was (I was a member of the CKC that year so got the ballot) the ballot simply said should BC be allowed back into the CKC. No mention was made at all, anywhere, on the CKC website or mag that there was any controversy about this in the BC world.
So you have chi breeders (for example) with no clue about BC and working dog issues voting to put BC in the CKC. And it was a small portion of the BC breeders who wanted in. Most wanted to stay out.
So you have chi breeders (for example) with no clue about BC and working dog issues voting to put BC in the CKC. And it was a small portion of the BC breeders who wanted in. Most wanted to stay out.
If belgians were originally used for herding purposes then WHY are there breeders breeding strictly for protection work? Shouldn't maintaining the herding portion of the breed be just as, if not more important?
Or are working breeder not wanting to admit they too aren't preserving the original breed?
Or are working breeder not wanting to admit they too aren't preserving the original breed?
Where? In the grand scheme of things i'm not too far from you and in an area of 3-400K people or so in the general city area that I'm in a lot, I know of ONE person with 3 Terv's that does anything with her dogs. and that is agility and a Therapy dog that she goes to hospitals with.
The dog world is small, especially the working venues. I don't see them working in any of them, if they are, it is rare. I've seen more Hovawarts working than Terv's.
The dog world is small, especially the working venues. I don't see them working in any of them, if they are, it is rare. I've seen more Hovawarts working than Terv's.
And, you're sure of this? Because you have done both? A good agility dog doesn't always make a good herding dog. Yes, some of the qualities are the same, but it doesn't always equate to both.
You can only know if you dog is good at both if you truly do both, and I don't see very many PP/Sch/Ring sport breeders doing anything but that.
The importance of testing in various venues holds true to those who do performance as well. You can't stand on a pedestal and be better than conformation breeders if you truly only breed and compete in one sport but claim you are better.
You can only know if you dog is good at both if you truly do both, and I don't see very many PP/Sch/Ring sport breeders doing anything but that.
The importance of testing in various venues holds true to those who do performance as well. You can't stand on a pedestal and be better than conformation breeders if you truly only breed and compete in one sport but claim you are better.
As far as I know, and trying to find a clear breed history is difficult, Belgians originated as both a herder and a protector.
I don't know how accurate this article is, but it's interesting.
A History of the Belgian Shepherd Dogs
Also, Dantero at any rate has done both protection and herding with some of the dogs.
Dantero Kennels
The only way to know if a dog is a great herding dog is to do herding with him. And the only way to know if he's a great protection dog is to do protection with him.
Drive, bidability, loyalty, stamina, health, agility, strength...all those really only contribute to trainability. They don't at all tell you what he's good at. As for grip, I tend to prefer that my dog not grip stock the same way he grips a sleeve.
I don't know how accurate this article is, but it's interesting.
A History of the Belgian Shepherd Dogs
Also, Dantero at any rate has done both protection and herding with some of the dogs.
Dantero Kennels
The only way to know if a dog is a great herding dog is to do herding with him. And the only way to know if he's a great protection dog is to do protection with him.
Drive, bidability, loyalty, stamina, health, agility, strength...all those really only contribute to trainability. They don't at all tell you what he's good at. As for grip, I tend to prefer that my dog not grip stock the same way he grips a sleeve.
My guess would be that more Mal breeders breed for protection than herding because there is a much larger market for bite sport and military/police service dogs than there is for herding. There are better herders out there that are easier to handle than a Mal. My friend who does protection work uses Bouvs for that, and has 2 Border Collies to herd the sheep on his farm.
I'm aware of this, yes. I've belonged to clubs for both sports and purchased my dog from the first woman North American Ring judge.
How many Terv people do you know? I mean seriously, they aren't all that common. I assure you that there are plenty that are herding and working as service dogs.
Per capita (dog) there are more OTCH and MACH Tervuren than most other breeds. Do you think that all one needs is an empty headed ball of fluff to achieve that?
Yes, a dog bred with health, temperment, nerve, strength, and tested and pressured is bred as shallowly as a dog bred to look pretty in a ring.
and yes corgi a grip on a sheep should be different than a grip on a sleeve in duration, but the courage under threat, the commitment to bite, the bite itself and the reaction afterwards are all very important to judge. Most doing the sports themselves don't even know what they're looking at and they should. how can you say you've done these sports, but can't see the similarity in testing the grip in protection sports and herding? If you truly understand what's going on?
How long a dog bites for or what he does with the grip is all training and a dog with what it takes to be a good herder in the type that GSD's and other herders were bred for, also make a good protection dog.
and yes, I think Belgians were used for police and protection before GSD's were, but those "type" of dogs, because the herders were just "types" before they were breeds, all had a lot of the same qualities which is what made them good herders and made an easy transition to protection.
exactly my point. Right now there aren't many and I don't forsee them being big in this country. And that is a good thing for them as far as i'm concerned. and even though they aren't that popular here, the ones I have met are not even close to having enough to be considered a working dog in my opinion. more than most dogs out there for sure, but a lot less than others.
as for the Mal's wait till the get more popular. They already are. 5-10 years ago hardly anybody outside a few working circles knew what they were. Now i've got people coming in to our club with problem Mal's cause they "wanted" one and had no idea what they were getting. It won't be long till some of them are dumbed down enough to satisfy the "want" of a mal that isn't really a mal. It's sad, but that's how it goes. It's happened to every breed that gets popular.
Soon, you'll have enough people selling the myth just like thousands of showline breeders of GSD's across this country and Germany. Selling a myth and an image of what once was, but sadly couldn't even dream of coming close to being held to the standard they're selling.
and yes corgi a grip on a sheep should be different than a grip on a sleeve in duration, but the courage under threat, the commitment to bite, the bite itself and the reaction afterwards are all very important to judge. Most doing the sports themselves don't even know what they're looking at and they should. how can you say you've done these sports, but can't see the similarity in testing the grip in protection sports and herding? If you truly understand what's going on?
How long a dog bites for or what he does with the grip is all training and a dog with what it takes to be a good herder in the type that GSD's and other herders were bred for, also make a good protection dog.
and yes, I think Belgians were used for police and protection before GSD's were, but those "type" of dogs, because the herders were just "types" before they were breeds, all had a lot of the same qualities which is what made them good herders and made an easy transition to protection.
exactly my point. Right now there aren't many and I don't forsee them being big in this country. And that is a good thing for them as far as i'm concerned. and even though they aren't that popular here, the ones I have met are not even close to having enough to be considered a working dog in my opinion. more than most dogs out there for sure, but a lot less than others.
as for the Mal's wait till the get more popular. They already are. 5-10 years ago hardly anybody outside a few working circles knew what they were. Now i've got people coming in to our club with problem Mal's cause they "wanted" one and had no idea what they were getting. It won't be long till some of them are dumbed down enough to satisfy the "want" of a mal that isn't really a mal. It's sad, but that's how it goes. It's happened to every breed that gets popular.
Soon, you'll have enough people selling the myth just like thousands of showline breeders of GSD's across this country and Germany. Selling a myth and an image of what once was, but sadly couldn't even dream of coming close to being held to the standard they're selling.