Selecting a puppy for sports/performance

[Elrohwen]

Any tips for choosing a pup for sports? I will be around for puppy evaluations when the litter is 7.5 weeks and right before they go home at 8 or 9 weeks. I've seen the basic puppy evaluation tests online, and the breeder already does those, but I'm looking for any advice on what I should focus on and additional tests I may not have thought of. The litter is bred primarily for conformation and general solid family dog temperament, not sports specifically, but I love the temperament of both parents. My main concern is that momma doesn't have a ton of food drive, so I want to make sure as much as possible that my pup is into food. I will be looking for the confident and outgoing puppy who is interested in interacting with people and who bounces back quickly from something scary or stressful.

I'm not looking for super high drive high energy top level competitor, just a fun dog who can dabble in sports with me. Since I basically get my pick, I want to make sure I'm prioritizing the right things and know what to expect during the evaluations.

What tests do you do on puppies? What results are you looking for? What should I ask the breeder to look for as they grow up?

 

[DJEtzel]

At that age I'm looking for a puppy that will tug and not let go when pressure was put on them, would switch from food to different toys relatively easily, chased balls or frisbees, didn't startle at loud noises, and got along well with their littermates.

 

[Raegan]

Pick the pedigree, pick the breeder, then pick the pretty one.

 

[Elrohwen]

would switch from food to different toys relatively easily

That's a good one that I didn't think of!

 

[krissy]

I let my breeder choose for me, but then she's also into performance (her greyhounds do agility, rally, weight pull, barn hunt, nose work, lure coursing, and conformation). She picked Kili and a back up and then let me decide between the two... but ultimately I defaulted to her choice, which was Kili. It has obviously worked out really well, and I'll be letting her choose my next pup as well.

She looked for a confident, outgoing temperament, and curiosity of new things. She has agility equipment that the pups go out and play on, so she looked for pups that had no fear and were all over the equipment.

As far as food drive... I don't know if you can evaluate that in a pup. Kili was hit and miss for quite a few months. She definitely had toy drive, but didn't tug (but that's pretty standard for a greyhound). I just sort of took a good base personality and built the things I wanted over time.

 

[Elrohwen]

I let my breeder choose for me, but then she's also into performance (her greyhounds do agility, rally, weight pull, barn hunt, nose work, lure coursing, and conformation). She picked Kili and a back up and then let me decide between the two... but ultimately I defaulted to her choice, which was Kili. It has obviously worked out really well, and I'll be letting her choose my next pup as well.

She looked for a confident, outgoing temperament, and curiosity of new things. She has agility equipment that the pups go out and play on, so she looked for pups that had no fear and were all over the equipment.

As far as food drive... I don't know if you can evaluate that in a pup. Kili was hit and miss for quite a few months. She definitely had toy drive, but didn't tug (but that's pretty standard for a greyhound). I just sort of took a good base personality and built the things I wanted over time.

Yeah, I'm fully prepared to show up at 7.5 weeks and have her say "this one is your pup, I'm sure of it". But if I'm going to be there I want to at least try some stuff and look like I know what I'm doing :rofl1: I also want to go to evaluations so I can learn about evaluating structure in puppies which I think will be super interesting.

She's also not super into performance, which is why I wanted some other opinions. Not many Welshie people *are* super into performance, but based on the dogs I have met I think this litter will have as much potential as any and I know the temperament of the parents better than I would buying from someone across the counter. On the other hand, she has been in the breed for 30 years and bred many litters, so I trust that she can evaluate a pup pretty well and know which will fit into certain homes the best. She is definitely on the look out for the active confident puppy who isn't shy or timid at all.

I was worried about testing for food drive, because I remember Watson wasn't really into food until he was a little older, and that's probably normal. Though if she's going to watch them at every feeding time she will be able to tell if one is really pushy about food, or if one hangs back and doesn't really care, and that will be good information.

 

[Beanie]

The very first and most important thing I look for is structure. I can work with drive and motivation problems but if a dog is not built well, he is not going to hold up to sport activity. Here's a post on structure for agility:
http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2009/10/helen-king-on-structure-evaluation/
Chris Zink has stuff on this also but I doubt it's online since I think it is all printed in various books still available for purchase. And you kind of have to work with what you have in the breed too.

Sheila Booth has that puppy preview thing and a lot of that is stuff I do. Ideally the breeder does it for you, and a few times, since puppies go through fear stages and all that.

Auggie's breeder told me she liked Payton's temperament so we went to go see him. Before anything else (after we pulled up and I spotted him proinking around in an ex-pen and I took a deep breath and reminded myself YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TAKE THE PUPPY) we put him on a park bench and examined his structure. After that we got to do the fun stuff. Put him on the ground and watched him investigate the area. I called him a few times to see if he would respond to me, I ran around a little to see if he would follow me. I pushed him around a bit (physically) to see what his reaction was, if his feelings got hurt or not. And then I got a toy and slapped it on the ground in front of him to see if he would go after it or not. We played with the toy a lot and my heart just exploded with joy because his response to the toy solidified the deal and I got to buy a puppy, hahaha.
After that we chatted some while Payton hung out some more to see what he would do. He was busy but not overly excitable, he wanted to look at stuff but he was cool to kind of chill on his own, not demanding of attention and unable to entertain himself.

The only thing I would have done differently - and something I will do in the future - is taken some kind of weird toy, something that moved or flashed or made noise (like a bumbleball, that would have worked and I use it with some of my clients as a distraction) to see how he reacted to something weird/"scary" and how quickly he would have rebounded.


And finally the most important part is to just kind of hang out with the dog. Like I said, Payton and I played together for a while and then we let him hang, and I could tell he was the kind of dog I would be able to live with. His personality was right and what I was looking for. I think so long as the breeder has a good understanding of what you want, really it's just about confirming the decision when you get there.

 

[Elrohwen]

The very first and most important thing I look for is structure. I can work with drive and motivation problems but if a dog is not built well, he is not going to hold up to sport activity. Here's a post on structure for agility:
http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2009/10/helen-king-on-structure-evaluation/
Chris Zink has stuff on this also but I doubt it's online since I think it is all printed in various books still available for purchase. And you kind of have to work with what you have in the breed too.

I have very little idea how to judge structure in puppies (though I have read some and watched some videos). Luckily the breeder and her breeder friends will have that part covered. She would like me to show in conformation, so I'm pretty sure my pup will be great structurally at the very least. One of the main reason I want to go to the evaluations is so I can learn from them how to judge puppies hands on and in person, so I'm excited for that.

The only thing I would have done differently - and something I will do in the future - is taken some kind of weird toy, something that moved or flashed or made noise (like a bumbleball, that would have worked and I use it with some of my clients as a distraction) to see how he reacted to something weird/"scary" and how quickly he would have rebounded.

This is a great idea. I see people recommend umbrellas, but as a breed that tends to be more noise sensitive than visually sensitive, I think something that makes noise will be a great test.

And finally the most important part is to just kind of hang out with the dog. Like I said, Payton and I played together for a while and then we let him hang, and I could tell he was the kind of dog I would be able to live with. His personality was right and what I was looking for. I think so long as the breeder has a good understanding of what you want, really it's just about confirming the decision when you get there.

Thank you for all the thoughts! I'm fully expecting her to have picked out the perfect puppy for me by the time I get there, and I'll just have to confirm. Hopefully the choice is obvious. I also hope we find a good combination of temperament and structure, because I'm willing to show if there is a show prospect, but I would rather have the best temperament in a slightly uglier dog if I had to choose.

 

[DJEtzel]

If you have an Iphone, I highly suggest the sound proof puppy training app to take with and play some sounds.

Recon is sound sensitive and we are working on counter conditioning fireworks and gunfire noise right now with the App with great success. On ONE bar of volume on my phone he reacts, so a light noise from your phone would be great to play to see their reactions.

 

[Elrohwen]

If you have an Iphone, I highly suggest the sound proof puppy training app to take with and play some sounds.

Recon is sound sensitive and we are working on counter conditioning fireworks and gunfire noise right now with the App with great success. On ONE bar of volume on my phone he reacts, so a light noise from your phone would be great to play to see their reactions.

Awesome! I will download that!

Watson is a little sound sensitive. Like he is sensitive to the teeter banging in class, but it took multiple classes of other dogs banging it down for him to be afraid. He gets nervous if I bang pots and pans but will just stand there if I turn on the really loud blender. So it's not that big of an issue, but I really don't want a puppy more sensitive than him and I know that can be an issue in the breed.

 

[release the hounds]

With young puppies too, it's not always just a reaction you're looking for, but the recovery as well. Not all reactions are bad, some are just reactions to a novel event. For lots of those dogs, how they recover is very important. just something to keep in mind.

 

[Elrohwen]

With young puppies too, it's not always just a reaction you're looking for, but the recovery as well. Not all reactions are bad, some are just reactions to a novel event. For lots of those dogs, how they recover is very important. just something to keep in mind.

Yeah, definitely.

I was talking with my new trainer (who is an IPO guy) and he was talking about stressing a puppy, and then seeing how they react afterwards. You want the puppy who comes back "yay let's play!" vs the one who runs off to hide from you. I've heard the normal tests of "open an umbrella" or "throw a set of keys" and see if the dog will bounce back and investigate, but never thought of the human being the stress instead of an object and seeing whether the dog bounces back and still wants to interact with the human.

 

[krissy]

Here's a post on structure for agility:
http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2009/10/helen-king-on-structure-evaluation/
Chris Zink has stuff on this also but I doubt it's online since I think it is all printed in various books still available for purchase. And you kind of have to work with what you have in the breed too.

Interesting article, however I do disagree with one point. She suggests that straight shoulders come at the cost of speed, which is incorrect. Every sighthound breed has straight shoulders. Greyhounds have incredibly straight shoulders, and clearly aren't lacking in speed. I do agree that it is problematic for impact and staying sound over jumps though.

Chris Zink gives a great 3 day seminar... highly recommend going if the opportunity presents. She says that straight shoulders negate lift so jumping higher is more difficult. But again, I'm not sure as most of the highest jumpers I know of are sighthounds. The world record holder (who passed away only a few months ago) was a greyhound, and a lot of the really successful puissance jumpers at dog demos are Beezers. I choose to run Kili in Specials in order to jump her a few inches lower to save her shoulders over years of agility.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent. Structure is really important obviously when choosing a performance dog, but keep your breed in mind. I will never find a greyhound with ideal agility structure. It just wouldn't be a greyhound if it could fit that description. Your life should be easier with a Welshie!

 

[GatorDog]

Yeah, definitely.

I was talking with my new trainer (who is an IPO guy) and he was talking about stressing a puppy, and then seeing how they react afterwards. You want the puppy who comes back "yay let's play!" vs the one who runs off to hide from you. I've heard the normal tests of "open an umbrella" or "throw a set of keys" and see if the dog will bounce back and investigate, but never thought of the human being the stress instead of an object and seeing whether the dog bounces back and still wants to interact with the human.

Who are you training with?

I personally don't expect to see a ton of prey/tug drive right off the bat. I look for some engagement, but not necessarily a puppy who holds on and doesn't let go. That's something that I think can be developed much more so over time. I look more for the outgoing puppy that seeks out any engagement. Following me around etc. I test reaction to stress and see the recovery. I would 99% of the time end up going for the puppy with the best food drive and reaction to stress/recovery over tug/prey drive any day.

 

[Elrohwen]

Who are you training with?

I personally don't expect to see a ton of prey/tug drive right off the bat. I look for some engagement, but not necessarily a puppy who holds on and doesn't let go. That's something that I think can be developed much more so over time. I look more for the outgoing puppy that seeks out any engagement. Following me around etc. I test reaction to stress and see the recovery. I would 99% of the time end up going for the puppy with the best food drive and reaction to stress/recovery over tug/prey drive any day.

Sent you a PM.

Considering the breed I wouldn't expect a lot of tug drive either, though I remember Watson was pretty into toys at a young age (chasing more than tugging). Good to know that's not something to expect in general. Thanks!

 

[GaelicBlues]

If the parents are what you want and you disregard very shy or very independant puppies (or ones you don't like the structure of) in the litter I think you can just pick the one that appeals the most.

I didn't meet any of the 3 dogs i have now until they arrived on the plane. For Kep my BC boy I wanted a boy from his litter, there were 3, all have ended up in agility/obedience homes (as did his 4 sisters) and I think all will do equally well. I had first boy pick and got it down to 2 at about 6 weeks as 1 was much more active and independant. I like cuddly both Kep and his brother liked to play tug, liked people, liked to pick things up and carry them around and bring stuff to show people. I already had an older girl from Kep's breeder so she knows what I like in dogs and the sports I do. One day she emailed me and said she liked Kep for me because after the puppies had a big play they fell asleep in the sun on the lawn all spread out, except Kep who came up to her, and then curled up to sleep with his head on her boot He is an amazing dog to work with and I love training him but he is still that sweet sweet boy as well.

Scout our Brittany we didn't know the breeders but as she was going to be a hunting and field trial dog we needed parents who worked and we could ask questions about their working style, things they did well, things they weren't so good at etc. As we wanted to do field trials/hunting and the other owners wanted a hunting dog we ended up with the most precocious full on one. Should have asked for the most laid back one haha (although she is a great FT dog, she is a bit too hot for a nice foot hunting dog). She did not then and does not now, play tug. She did like to fetch thrown things.

 

[Elrohwen]

If the parents are what you want and you disregard very shy or very independant puppies (or ones you don't like the structure of) in the litter I think you can just pick the one that appeals the most.

Thanks! Yeah, I'm sure it will be ok. I just want to make sure I go in having thought it all through first at least. Then if two puppies are similar I will have some ideas of how to choose one vs the other.

 

[Shai]

She would like me to show in conformation, so I'm pretty sure my pup will be great structurally at the very least.

Just bear in mind that breed type and performance structure are not always the same! Even in middle of the road breeds, conformation often rewards heavier bone. In gun dogs it can be difficult to find a good balance front to rear without slipping into heaviness. In Flatcoats we say "power without lumber; raciness without weediness" but it's easier to say than to achieve

 

[Elrohwen]

Just bear in mind that breed type and performance structure are not always the same! Even in middle of the road breeds, conformation often rewards heavier bone. In gun dogs it can be difficult to find a good balance front to rear without slipping into heaviness. In Flatcoats we say "power without lumber; raciness without weediness" but it's easier to say than to achieve

Oh for sure! Though I'm not so worried about that from knowing the parents and the lines. Watson is lighter in bone than a lot of males, and the bitch is not heavy either. Plus the breeder picked Watson has her top conformation prospect and he's very moderate in bone compared to a lot of the males we see, so I don't expect her to pick out a pup who is overly heavy. And her lines produce really easy movers with drive from the rear, which I also like. I see poor movement too often at shows.

I also don't see enough variation in Welsh to have a performance vs conformation type. There is variation but not separate lines or huge differences that would make me choose or avoid certain breeders because of heaviness. I'm more concerned with dogs who are too low on leg or deep in the body (which is becoming too common), but that doesn't run in Watson's lines either. Not as sure about the bitch since most of her relatives live in the midwest and I haven't seen them in person.