Roxy- mild hip dysplasia

Roxy's CD

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#1
So Roxy went in today to get x-rayed and I just got a phone call from them. I have to pick her up at 2 and the vet will show me the x-rays but she said over the phone that she thinks Roxy has mild hip dysplasia.

She's not even 2 years old yet, so she will most likely get worse. Should she stop most of her physical activity??? I'll be getting her supplements, but some people have spoke of "condroitin and glucosomine". I've read that these drugs can cause long term effects, even death due to liver toxicity. Has anyone ever heard of this?

I was really hoping that she was just a waddler but apparently not so.. *sighs* Does anyone know of dogs with hip dysplasia that still DO things, like, obedience, agility, runs in the park... going up stairs....

I'm going to the vet's at 2 and I'll know more so I'll post the full hoopla than...
 

Kmh1

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Good luck and I hope you get more info when you pick her up this afternoon. I guess a lot depends on how mild. I don't know much about canine hip dysplasia, but I think I remember reading in another post that you have horses? So do I, and as I'm sure you know, especially with horses, lots of problems are manageable with proper care and the animals go on to have very productive and active lives. Excercise might even be key in keeping things under control. As far as the glucosamine and chondrointin--I always was under the impression they were very safe--I guess its best to double check with your vet.
We will be eager to hear how you make out. I know its hard when you think something is wrong with one of your critters! Hang in there.
 

bubbatd

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I'd have the X rays checked by a specialist and get their advise. There's a lot of help today.
 

Roxy's CD

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Ok, so I just got back. My vet said she would classify her as a Grade I.

The problem is with the bone that the ball is on (my technical terms are ball and joint.lol) The bone that the ball is on, is supposed to have somewhat of an angle and the more straight that bone is, the less of the ball fits into the cup.

My vet has said that surgery is ideal for her, because she's so young and there is no wear and tear on the joints yet. She recommended the "triple pelvic osteotomy". (for both sides)

It costs about $2000 a hip. And the recovery time is about 6 months.

Does anyone know of any animals that have undergone this surgery? I'm willing to do it as long as I'm assured that there won't be any other problems like; winter discomfort because of the plates or athritis (exactly what we're trying to prevent...)
 
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#6
Roxy's CD said:
Ok, so I just got back. My vet said she would classify her as a Grade I.

The problem is with the bone that the ball is on (my technical terms are ball and joint.lol) The bone that the ball is on, is supposed to have somewhat of an angle and the more straight that bone is, the less of the ball fits into the cup.

My vet has said that surgery is ideal for her, because she's so young and there is no wear and tear on the joints yet. She recommended the "triple pelvic osteotomy". (for both sides)

It costs about $2000 a hip. And the recovery time is about 6 months.

Does anyone know of any animals that have undergone this surgery? I'm willing to do it as long as I'm assured that there won't be any other problems like; winter discomfort because of the plates or athritis (exactly what we're trying to prevent...)
I'm so, so sorry..
I do have a client who went through this with her Berner. It went extremely well, so expensive.. but she said she'd do it again in a heartbeat. The hardest thing was trying to keep her 2 year old 110lb. dog calm while he healed especially due to the fact that she has another berner female who's only 2 and very playful. They got through it very well though.
Keep us posted, this has to be so hard for you.:(
 

Roxy's CD

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#7
dr2littleSo do you think I should get it done? I'll do in a heartbeat as long as I know that it works!. I've been looking on websites and they all say about 90% success rate, but I want to know from someone that has had it done, and will say that it truly improved their dogs quality of life.

The reason the decision is so hard, because first off I was nervous about the x-rays because she had to be put under let alone surgery! Also because I know she won't be able to move around much for months, BUT if 6 months of being quiet means a lifetime of running and jumping....*sigh*

I'm leaning towards getting it done, unless anyone has any horror stories they'd like to share...
 

MomOf7

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#8
Sorry to hear about Roxy!
Was Roxy a pure bred from a reputable breeder?
Either way it doesnt matter anyhow.
I do know of a guy...The guy who got me interested in labs and hunt tests. His dog that he spent close to 10k in training on who also got a master hunter title has severe hip displaysia. You could never tell by the way he ran! He won a contest of the fastest retrieve just before he was diagnosed. I wanted to use him for a stud.
This is what I would do. I would take Roxy in to get a penn hip. Its more accurate. Why? because what OFA looks for is arthritis. Also depending on the vet the xrays may have not been done correctly. OFA is based on opinions where Penn hip is based on math. Our vet who is a breeding specialist was explaining to us the difference between OFA and Penn Hip. Also how if the dog isnt sedated and wasnt in the correct position it could look like displaysia.
It very well could be and is displaysia but I would want to take the next step to make sure.
We have started to use Penn Hip. We have one of our females Penn hip and plan on getting the other female and my boy Reds Penn hip.
I would give my vet a call and and ask him to give you information. He is a great guy who is constantly updating his education. Breeding is his passion and he has alot of knowledge.
His Name is Dr Shultz
The number is 360-866-6101
The worst that can happen is you get the same result. The best is that she isnt dispastic and she will be fine.
 
L

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http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0090.htm

this site has alot of links and lists books that have info as well. hopefully something here will be able to give you an idea as to whether surgery will work for Roxy.

i read about a cavalier spaniel that had severe hip dysplasia and got the FHO (not the same surgery) surgery and had great recovery, and that dogs 50 lbs or less recovered better. but this was a different surgery and worse HD than Roxy's got...so i'd say the odds are good Roxy would benefit from surgery. IMO...cause i really have no idea.
 

doberkim

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Momof7, if the shots they took today (which weren't OFA actual shots) showed evidence of HD, then PennHip won't be any better, especially in terms of what this is showing -lack of coverage of the acetabulum. If the joint is already lacking on a non-distracted view, distraction (via PennHip) is just going to make it worse!

TPO's are amazing surgeries, and if necessary I would do one on my dog. The recovery time takes awhile, as does all orthopedic surgeries, but the dogs do SO well. You just need to find a credible orthopedic surgeon who knows what he is doing. The surgery is intense, since the hip will essentially be broken in three different places, but the results are immediate and recovery may be slow but I have had patients walking on that side in 1-2 days.

In terms of the drugs and supplements - glucosamine and chondroitin are supplements, not drugs - and they have virtually no side effects. The drugs you are thinking about in terms of managing pain, are NSAIDs like Rimadyl, Deramaxx, Metacam, etc. They can have long term side effects if the patients are not screened correctedly and monitored poorly, but on the same hand I have seen dogs do incredibly well on them, and have used them on my own dogs when necessary - even my older bitch with liver issues.
 
L

LabBreeder

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doberkim - with you being a dvm is there any way you could find a good surgeon in the ontario canada area for Roxy? or give her some referals to some.
i was just thinking you might know more vets and surgeons nationwide (and maybe in canada) than the rest of us. just a thought. :) trying to help Roxy find a good surgeon, that's all.
 

J's crew

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doberkim said:
Momof7, if the shots they took today (which weren't OFA actual shots) showed evidence of HD, then PennHip won't be any better, especially in terms of what this is showing -lack of coverage of the acetabulum. If the joint is already lacking on a non-distracted view, distraction (via PennHip) is just going to make it worse!

TPO's are amazing surgeries, and if necessary I would do one on my dog. The recovery time takes awhile, as does all orthopedic surgeries, but the dogs do SO well. You just need to find a credible orthopedic surgeon who knows what he is doing. The surgery is intense, since the hip will essentially be broken in three different places, but the results are immediate and recovery may be slow but I have had patients walking on that side in 1-2 days.

In terms of the drugs and supplements - glucosamine and chondroitin are supplements, not drugs - and they have virtually no side effects. The drugs you are thinking about in terms of managing pain, are NSAIDs like Rimadyl, Deramaxx, Metacam, etc. They can have long term side effects if the patients are not screened correctedly and monitored poorly, but on the same hand I have seen dogs do incredibly well on them, and have used them on my own dogs when necessary - even my older bitch with liver issues.

Doberkim-

I am not sure of the exact differences between a FHO and a TPO. Can you explain them?

One of the reasons I ask is because I have heard a FHO is much less expensive. Also I had a FHO done on a Rottie I had at 9 months old and everything turned out great. She had a very slight limp on that side but never had any more problems with that hip.

I have also heard that a FHO is normally done on a small breed dog. Do you know why the FHO was done on a Rottweiler versus TPO?

Hopefully your answers will help Roxy also!

Thanks!
 

doberkim

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#13
Typically FHO's (femoral head osteotomy) is performed on a small breed dog, because essentially what you do is remove the head of the femur (the ball, in the ball and socket joint) and you eliminate the hip joint. The muscles and scar tissue essentially create a new "false" joint. It's generally (though I won't say never) performed on a larger breed dog simply because there is a lot more strain and weight bearing on the hips than in a 5 lb dog.

a Triple Pelvic Osteotomy is where the hip joint is rotated. To do this, you cut the pelvis in three places, and rotate the piece of the pelvis that is "free". The free piece is then reattached at the new angle with a TPO plate, and what this allows is you allow for more coverage of the hip joint (the head of the femur will be covered more by the acetabulum than before).

TPO's are the surgery of choice HOWEVER - they have a bunch of conditions that have to be met - there cannot be any arthritis or degenerative changes already present. The dog has to be under a year old. and for the life of me cant remember the third issue... it's something about how much coverage there is of the head of the femur...

FHO's are last chance procedures in the sense that once you do it, there is no going back. You can always do an FHO after a TPO, a total hip, etc - but once you cut out the femoral head, that's all there is!

I've been trying to find you guys pics, here are some rads of dogs after FHO's and TPO's.

http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/medical/medical-info.02.html#HD

J's crew- cant say for sure why your vet chose FHO over TPO, unless she already had a lot of degenerative changes. TPO's need to be done early on to prevent the damage of HD.

In terms of what I can recommend, I don't know many if any surgeons in Canada, nor would I recommend one over the other as I have never seen their work. Your best bet would be asking your own vet who they recommend, or going to the University of Guelph and seeing what they think - I have worked with them before and have many friends involved in their Doberman Holter project.
 

J's crew

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#14
Thanks so much! :D

I have always been puzzled about why she did the FHO. It has been years since it was done and at the time I was new to the breed and very young with my first dog. I guess i just took her word that it was the best option. Oh well, it worked out great at the time. :)
 

Roxy's CD

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Whewf, Ok, thank you Dr.Kim! lol. That's what I was looking for. You to say you would do it to your own dog.

I just spoke with my trainer who had a shephard that was diagnosed with grade4 HD at 6 months old, he lived to be 14 but his life was very restricted. (weight watching, exercise, painkillers etc)

Roxy's situation isn't that bad. I spent HOURS on the net looking at x-rays before I saw hers, and from what I can see there is no arthritis, no calcification and no inflammation. Roxy wasn't even really exhibiting any of the symptoms, looking uncomfortable after sitting/lying down for longer periods of time, crying/whelping etc. The only reason I took her in was because she "waddles".

My trainer had also mentioned FHO, but I don't really think it's suitable for Roxy's situation. Doberkim as you mentioned a TPO usually isn't performed on an animal over the age of 12 months is what I researched, Roxy will be 2 in September. My vet, (she is referring me to a Dr.Post in Scarborough Ontario) has recommended her under the basis that she has no arthritis and there is no wear and tear to the joints, YET. I asked her how long I had to decide and she said a couple of months.

My bf have talked and cried about it today and I think we're going to do it. I haven't exactly figured out how we're going to deal with stairs and such yet but we will. I'm hoping we can arrange to have it done after the summertime so she'll just be laid up in the wintertime when it's not so fun anyways.

Thank you everyone for helping me out during this very sad time for us.
 

MomOf7

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doberkim said:
Momof7, if the shots they took today (which weren't OFA actual shots) showed evidence of HD, then PennHip won't be any better, especially in terms of what this is showing -lack of coverage of the acetabulum. If the joint is already lacking on a non-distracted view, distraction (via PennHip) is just going to make it worse!
.
I would get a second opinion anyhow. Xrays if not done correctly can show shadows and angles that are not easily read or can be easily misdiagnosed.
My vet said alot of vets jump to conclusions when it comes to HD. That a dog with a giddyup in its step doesnt necessarily mean its displastic.
If you hold the dog just right it will displace the joints. Also if the dog is not centered angles will make the xrays invalid to read. Its very important when getting xrays done of hips to determine HD that they be done by an experienced vet or specialist. That why my vote is for a second opinion. Penn Hip is more accurate than OFA and harder to pass so I see your point.
Either way I would have a second opinion done by a specialist or a very seasond vet who does OFA or Penn Hip on a regular basis.
JMO
 

Roxy's CD

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#17
Penn hip? That's just what it's called? Are their any other names?

I don't want to lie to myself but I guess it could be possible. As I mentioned her form of HD is not a shallow acetbulum (sp) or femora (sp lol) but the angle that the femur/femora lacks.
 

MomOf7

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Roxy's CD said:
Penn hip? That's just what it's called? Are their any other names?

I don't want to lie to myself but I guess it could be possible. As I mentioned her form of HD is not a shallow acetbulum (sp) or femora (sp lol) but the angle that the femur/femora lacks.
Here is more info

A new test

In 1983, Dr. Gail Smith, an orthopedic surgeon at the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine, began researching early diagnosis of CHD. Through his work, he has created the PennHip method for measuring joint laxity (looseness) the primary cause of degenerative joint disease. The distraction index (DI) used in the PennHip method serves as a measurement of passive hip laxity, the degree of looseness of the hip joint when the dog's hips are completely relaxed. Dogs with a DI of 0.3 have tighter hips and are less likely to develop DJD, while those with looser hips whose DI values approach 0.7 or more are at greater risk.

The PennHip x-ray method is unique for several reasons.

First, it is a well-researched, objective method following strict scientific protocols and published in peer-reviewed veterinary literature.

Second, the distraction index assigned to each hip joint is based on precise measurements and mathematical calculations. Dr. Smith and his colleagues feel this is superior to a subjective description of “shallow acetabulum” as found in an OFA report.

Third, veterinarians who wish to submit films to PennHip are required to be trained in the techniques and to be certified. This assures that standard protocols will be used in obtaining the films and helps insure accurate data.

OFA x-rays can be done by any veterinarian, with or without anesthesia or muscle relaxants. The x-rays are examined by three radiologists who report their findings to OFA; the dog is rated severely dysplastic, mildly dysplastic, fair, good, or excellent or may be given a non-rating letter requesting submission of new x-rays in six months.

Although dogs must be two years old or older to get an OFA rating, the foundation will evaluate preliminary x-rays on younger dogs.

Recent studies of the OFA method of hip evaluation reveals a wide variation in the conformational grade assigned by different radiologists. Not only might one radiologist disagree with another, but may even contradict himself and give different grades to the same film on different occasions. Tests comparing positioning shows that the hip-extended position used by OFA tends to drive the femoral head into the socket, masking the amount of laxity and artificially improving the look of the hip joint.

As part of the strict quality control with PennHip, all x-rays must be taken under anesthesia to provide the greatest amount of muscle relaxation. This is particularly important when using a special positioning device called a distractor to help demonstrate hip laxity.

To maintain the integrity and validity of the PennHip method and its ongoing research, all x-ray films taken are submitted for evaluation. This prevents corruption of the data which occurs when films are screened and only the “best” are submitted for consideration. In otherwords OFA does not requre that all xrays for the evaluation be submitted therefore thier information is limited to those who do submit xrays which are usually ones that have been determined by a vet to pass. Therefore there is no cause for a non pass to send in the xrays therefore OFA's statistics are not as accurate as they should be.
PennHip evaluation reports are not pass-fail. Instead, each dog is ranked compared to other dogs of that breed. A dog with a percentile ranking of 30 percent has tighter hips than 30 percent of the dogs evaluated. In other words, 70 percent of the dogs evaluated have tighter hips than the patient.

PennHip and International Canine Genetics, the company that markets PennHip and manages the data base, do not make specific recommendations about breeding specific dogs; they leave that decision to the breeder. In general, their advice would be to breed only those dogs in the top 50 percent, those with tightest hips (or the lowest DI) as compared to other dogs of that breed. It is presumed that, as dogs with tighter hips are bred to each other, the average DI will decrease. leading to tighter, healthier hips and a decreased incidence of hip dysplasia.

While no one promises that the PennHip method of measuring hip joint laxity will be 100 percent accurate in predicting which dogs will develop hip dysplasia, it is superior to any other available diagnostic method. As more breeders become aware of PennHip testing and more veterinarians become certified in the method, it is sure to become more widely available and more familiar to dog breeders and owners.
 

MomOf7

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#19
I also wanted to add that going to a specialist is the way to go. They have more experience positioning the dog and reading the xrays.
Also wanted to tell you that our vet highly suggest the dog be sedated for a more accurate xray. If the dog is pulling one way and the vet another it will show up in the xrays and could make them unreliable for determination of HD.
 

bubbatd

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Roxy , there's been a lot of new treatments since Chip was done about 8 yrs ago. The owners were very lucky as I refered them to a specialist near them who happened to be one the best in the Country. Then I refered him to a friend in Florida...she sent him the Xrays and he recommended a vet near them. I would be glad to see if he is still practicing. BTW... Chip has NEVER shown any soreness , limping etc the 5 years I've had him. I let him do what he wants to .... would have loved to do agility , but didn't want to stress the issues. I'd go for it !!! Let me know if you'd like any more info....
 

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