Researching breeds: Pap, Chi, Chipin, Fox & Rat Terrier

[silvrstar25]

Hi everyone (from a newbie forum poster)

I'm living in a 1BR Apt in the city (Philadelphia), and looking to get a small/med size dog. I've only ever owned a pure breed male Choc Lab who was fantastic & very large even for a lab; so my knowledge of the small dog world is nonexistent. I've been doing a lot of research and found a few different breeds that I'm really interested in, and was hoping to get some further insight into each breed.

Interested in: Papillon, Chihuahua, Chipin, Toy/Mini Fox Terrier, Toy Rat Terrier

That being said, I'm looking for a dog that could be happy in an apt, w/daily city walks, i will be leaving them home alone during the day, but mid-afternoon there will be a person there to let the dog out/walk/play whatever. I'm sorta spoiled on the even tempered/friendly disposition of my Lab and really don't want to get a dog that is destructive or barking all day until someone arrives home. (I know dogs will be dogs, I just don't want neighbors to get mad & want the dog to be happy).

Thank you so much, any help will be appreciated!
Shannon

PS: any suggestions of a different breed are also welcome!

 

[PoodleMommy]

First, I dont believe a "chipin" is a breed... correct me if I am wrong but I am pretty sure it is chi/ min pin MIX?

Second, anything in the "terrier" category is going to require more training than the others and probably will need to be crated at least at the beginning in order to be left alone without ruining your apartment. Terriers have a habit of getting themselves into trouble... they can be too smart for their own good.

Third, there are lots of small to medium breed dogs that do well in apartments and also like to get out and exercise and be "dogs". You just need to make sure you get a dog from a reputable breeder who is going to be structurally well built. Many BYB toy dogs end up being fragile because of poor breeding practices.

Im sure there are a lot of other breeds that would work well for you but maybe you could give us some more information on your situation. You seemed to pick dogs who do not need much grooming, is that something that is important to you?

 

[Romy]

If you are wanting a non destructive dog most terriers are probably not the best fit for the situation you describe. Terriers have a lot of energy and drive, and they are very smart (translates to: easily bored). They were bred to be gutsy working dogs rather than lap warmers, which many people tend to overlook in leiu of their size and cute faces. Not that it would be impossible to do in an apartment, but there would be some different challenges than you would have in other breeds.

Does grooming matter to you at all? Just throwing a couple more suggestions out there:
Italian greyhound? (very quiet, wouldn't have to train not to bark)
Shih Tzu?
Maltese?

To be on the lookout for when finding a dog too, because I notice you have "toy" in front of a couple of breeds and "chipin":"Toy" is a marketing term used by backyard breeders and puppy mills to sell more puppies. If you get a puppy from someone that advertises their dogs as "toy" then they probably do not screen the parents for genetic health conditions like luxating patella and others. Also, breeding super tiny dog to super tiny dog often creates animals with health problems. Many of the small breeds have a lower size limit for a good reason.

Right now there is a huge "designer" dog fad. People are crossing dogs that they think will make cute mutt puppies, smash the names together into one name (like chipin, or puggle) and say "voila! I have created a designer breed! Now give me a lot of $$$ for them!" These people also are not health testing. The temperament of the dog is also going to be a crapshoot. For example:A chipin is mutt, half chihuahua and half min pin. Your puppy could have a chihuahua temperament, a min pin temperament, or something inbetween. It could also inherit all the health problems of both purebred parents if the parents were not health tested and proven healthy before breeding. Other aspects of the parents, like energy level, drives, etc. are also going to be less certain in a mixed breed litter.

If there is a certain mix that you really like you can find them on petfinder or in the shelter for a lot less money, and typically those dogs are a little older and you can see what kind of activity level, temperament, personality, etc. they have. Plus it's always nice to rescue a dog. An older puppy or young dog is a bonus with the small breeds, because sometimes it can take up to and over a year for potty training to finally take, and they are done teething/chewing on things.There are a lot of folks with the breeds you have listed on this forum, so I'll let them answer specifics about their breeds.

 

[Dekka]

The toy fox terrier is an AKC/CKC recognized breed. Not that they look anything like fox terriers.... lol

I agree that you should stay away from terriers with your criteria. Unless you are willing to adopt an older adult.

 

[Romy]

The toy fox terrier is an AKC/CKC recognized breed. Not that they look anything like fox terriers.... lol

Whoops, my bad.

 

[Maxy24]

I know nothing about the small breeds but once you decide on a breed if you need any help finding a breeder or a dog in the shelter I would be more than happy to help

 

[Laurelin]

I can talk about papillons.

They are absolutely wonderful dogs for the right people. That said, there are some things to consider. This breed is not a lap dog at all. They are high energy at times and considered one of the smartest breeds out there. They're very very sweet and mine are all just as friendly, even tempered, and affectionate (probably moreso) than our labrador. They're very similar in the way they love people. I know it sounds silly for a breed that was mainly created to be ornamental (though they were also used as ratters) but this breed needs a lot of attention and activity. My friends describe mine as hyperactive, but I think energetic is more the word. I've said they're very smart and I can't really emphasize that enough. They're a very biddable kind of smart so you can train them to do just about anything. They're one of the top competitors in many canine sports like agility and obedience work. If you don't give them a chance to use that brain, though, they'll come up with a way to use it themselves. Usually when they start thinking up plans, they're not anything good. Also, they're known to be barkers, but one of mine is literally silent and never barks. They also are very very clingy dogs and bond intensely with their people. They hate being away from people and indeed Summer has separation anxiety problems when I'm gone. If she had her way, where I go, she'd go.

I have her in an apartment and she does bark a bit, but it works okay. She's a bit high energy, so we do a lot of walking and exercising daily. Rose would be a much better apartment dog, and I really think Beau would be too. Bernard would be a nightmare in an apartment. An older dog would probably be a better bet if you go with a papillon. I got Summer when she was four, but she's still a lot of work. It's good work though and she is just the best dog you could ever ask for.

Based on my experience with my friends TFT, it is VERY hyperactive. He is probably the most active dog I've ever met. Chihuahuas seem to me to be a lower energy level than the TFTs and the Paps. I think the amount of barking seems to be about the same. Italian Greyhounds are lower energy for apartments, as are shih tzus those are both fantastic suggestions. Paps can be great apartment dogs so long as you're prepared for a dog that is a lot more than a lap dog.

 

[lizzybeth727]

I have a chi and have lived in several different apartments over several years with her, and she's a great apartment dog. SHe does bark when someone knocks on the door, but to me that's a good thing.... and you can teach them "quiet" just like any other breed (which I have). I think it's typical of the breed to have a lot of stamina - just because they're small doesn't mean they can't keep up with you! I used to be able to take my dog to work with me, and some days we'd be walking for 8-9 hours straight, with only about a 30 minute break. In the three years I brought her with me, she never got so tired she wouldn't keep up with me.

Now that she doesn't come to work with me anymore, she does get stir-crazy in the house sometimes, but the good thing about small dogs is that they're very "portable" - easily fitting in a crate or seatbelt harness in the car, so you can take them on "outings." She's also very good at laying down and chilling out, too, most chis love sleeping in fluffy beds or under covers.

Chi puppies need a LOT of socialization or you'll end up with one with the horrible chi steriotype of being "nippy." Of course, it's a good idea to check shelters and rescues to find an adult chi whose temperment you already know. My chi came from a shelter when she was 9 months old, and she's GREAT with people, including kids (they also have a bad reputation of not tolerating kids). She was, however, dog-reactive when I got her (common among small breeds.... some call it the "napolean complex"), and it took about two years of training but she's now comfortable around most dogs.

Chis - the well bred ones, anyway - are also known for being smart. Mine is good with obedience and knows dozens of tricks, plus we have been taking agility classes for a few years (she LOVES jumping and climbing!).

The main problem with chis, as well as most small breeds, is the potty training. When I got mine, she was not potty trained (I'm guessing that's why she was in the shelter), and she still has accidents in the house about once every six months or so. I have a friend who is one of the best dog trainers I know, and her chi still has regular potty accidents in the house after living with them for 3+ years. So no matter how old your chi is when you get it - or whether someone told you this dog is already potty trained or not - be ready to do some potty training and crate training. I would not suggest leaving a chi for more than about 7 hours without giving it time for a potty break, so I'm very glad you've already talked about getting a dog walker.

That said, I'd also suggest looking more closely at shih tzus and italian greyhounds. They are both, IMO, a bit more laid back than a chi (shih tzus probably won't have the stamina or heat tolerance, due to their nose), and a bit more difficult to train.

 

[DogstarAcademy]

I'll chime in here on the behalf of TFTs, as the well-bred ones I've known have NOT been hyper- but they ARE fairly high energy. They're definitely terriers, and I'd put them about 3/4 of the way between Papillons and Chihs if you were comparing energy levels- closer to the Pap. Now, with the rat terriers, there ISN'T a real 'toy' rat terrier, but there is a range of sizes. While RTs are (newly) recognized by AKC, there are still a fair amount of 'working' farm type RTs out there- and some BYBs and PMs pretending to have the same.

With the more active toy breeds, my concern wouldn't be so much exercise as activity in general. Are you wanting a breed that will go out for a potty walk and come back in and be a lap dog, or a small dog that can really keep up with you on longer walks and things like that. With the toy terriers, you *can* wear the dog out with fetch and tug indoors- but you need to be able to deal with the terrier personality (intelligent, creative, and not particularly inclined to do things JUST to make you happy unless it happens to coincide with what makes THEM happy.) Some people enjoy this more than others- I like my biddable herding dogs and couldn't live with even a very laid back terrier, but I have friends who have terriers who wouldn't dream of owning anything else.

I think the best thing to do would be to meet some good representatives of each breed and see how you really feel about them. You've got some commonalities in appearance (upright ears, moderate body, pointed muzzle) but the personalities in these breeds you've listed vary a LOT.

 

[Laurelin]

Supposedly my friends TFT Jet is well bred, but who knows. He's so spastic that you can barely touch him. I have met a pap that is just about that hyperactive, though you could pet him. (For a short while at least) He was a kick butt agility dog, though.

I like my biddable herding dogs and couldn't live with even a very laid back terrier

That sums me up too. Both groups are pretty high energy, but it's a different kind of energy. I enjoy being around terriers, but I don't know about living with one.

 

[puppydog]

If you go Pap, be prepared for sometimes insane high energy! My boy can come back from a killer walk and still tear around the house with his toy for ages. He is contantly using that noggin and gets into EVERYTHING that is not put away.

He is not naughty or disobedient, he literally cannot help himself. He always has to be busy. If I were to leave that little guy alone all day he would probably whither up and die. He is left with my mother, Lilly and my mothers dog all day. They spend the day playing.

I personally think a more layed back, adult Chi would be the best bet for you. Paps are HIGH energy. I used that term to describe my BC, boy was I wrong. Ben would out run her any day!

 

[FoxyWench]

of the list you put in.
chipin is NOT a bred, my first suggestion to you is to reaserch what a good breeder is and doe and what to look for in a breeder (from a shelter any mix is fine, from a breeder puggles, chipins, yorkie poos and anthing of the sort are simply mixed breed puppies with "cutsey" names bred by people looking to make a quick buck off their dog.


now in terms of your list, the only breed of those id even consider with just a daily city walk would possibly be a well bred and very well socilized/trained chihuahua.
i dont think any of the terriers would be happy with one even 2 city walks, nor would a pap, while htye may not typiclaly be "insane" breeds compared with a couple of other terier breeds, they are high energy and unles your willing to make daily trips to a safe offleash dog park or work agility on your day off or something, i dont think a terrier or pap would be happy with what your describing...

a chihuahuas however would be fine with 1 good 1/2 hour to 1 hour walk and a game of chase/fetch ect in the house (my chis are more than happy to burn off their enegergy wrestling on the couch) size wise and personality wise they make good apartment dogs...

BUT
the breed is prone to be "yappy" this does not mean ALL chihuahaus bark alot, what it does mean is you would have to be very dligent in training the dog to NOT bark, this involves not babying the dog and taking it EVERYWHERE so it can get used t being alone occasionally, and teaching the quiet command.
chihuahuas also tend to be known as "ankle biters" this little trait is the fault 100% of IRRESPONSIBLE owners, chis need to be trained just like eveyr other dog on the planet, i suggest a good puppy class, LOTS of socilization and continue through with obedience classes as the dog gets older.

chis hold a wonderfull place in my heart and are one of my favorite breeds and could very definatly fit your life perfectly if your willing to train and socilize (and not use the dog as a fashion acessory)

other breeds that might work for you
bichon (low shedding small dog with a happy go lucky personality, most bichon will do fine with low excersize)
maltese (coat upkeep and ive met malts that are incredibly calm and malts that are like the energizer bunny)
toy or mini poodle (low/considerably none shedding dog,very loyal and inteligent but theres quite a bit of coat upkeep)
chinese crested, will need a daily run off leash for a good 15 mins in a SAFE FENCED IN AREA as they have energy similar to sighthounds, but a great small breed, none-EXTREEMLY low shedding breed, needs quite a bit of coat/skin upkeep depending on if you whent hairless hairy hairles or powderpuff...
toy spaniel (make sure to get from a very good breeder who does all health testing but very sweet litle dogs spaniels are naturally sweet and happy go lucky! though larger spaneisl would be a little too high excersize for your needs.

good luck, this forum is a wealth of information

 

[silvrstar25]

I know nothing about the small breeds but once you decide on a breed if you need any help finding a breeder or a dog in the shelter I would be more than happy to help

thank you, I will definitely do that!

 

[silvrstar25]

First, I dont believe a "chipin" is a breed... correct me if I am wrong but I am pretty sure it is chi/ min pin MIX?

you are correct, my mistake in writing it that way. i was interested in the chipin because i originally started this dog research with a mini pin in mind, but after researching i was worried about leaving it alone during the day (even w/ a dog walker) and thought that a chi / mini pin might be better. (maybe not though)

You seemed to pick dogs who do not need much grooming, is that something that is important to you?

the grooming is mildly important. it is more that i love the look of all the dogs i listed and thought that their traits could also work for me. i don't want a "fashion accessory" for a small dog, i just want a good dog that happens to be small haha if that makes sense
----
I see you have a yorkie. I saw from a few people that the terriers i mentioned may not be the best for my environment, what do you think about the yorkie?

 

[silvrstar25]

Does grooming matter to you at all? Just throwing a couple more suggestions out there:
Italian greyhound? (very quiet, wouldn't have to train not to bark)
Shih Tzu?
Maltese?

I was actually thinking about the italian greyhound also, I was just worried about a few things a) the cold climate I'm in, and b) was worried about how fragile they are. I've never met anyone who has owned one, so maybe I'll try to seek someone out who has one.

 

[silvrstar25]

I can talk about papillons.
...Paps can be great apartment dogs so long as you're prepared for a dog that is a lot more than a lap dog.

It seems from everything that I have heard that paps are really amazing, and I would like more than a lap dog! haha (i think) During the week I know that a short walk mid-afternoon and longer walk at night is all I can offer. The weekend is another story, those days I have considerably more time, so I'm not sure if that would be enough to keep a pap happy?
You mentioned the bond w/ the owner, do you think that leaving and having another male come in during the day would pose a problem? (i know i'm over generalizing here)

 

[PoodleMommy]

the grooming is mildly important. it is more that i love the look of all the dogs i listed and thought that their traits could also work for me. i don't want a "fashion accessory" for a small dog, i just want a good dog that happens to be small haha if that makes sense
----
I see you have a yorkie. I saw from a few people that the terriers i mentioned may not be the best for my environment, what do you think about the yorkie?

As far as the chi/min pin there is nothing wrong with mixes however, no reputable breeder will breed them therefore if you really want that mix the best thing to do would be to look for a rescue... otherwise its best to pick the breed you like best and look for that.

I did absolutley no research before I got my yorkie... I was planning to get a poodle and he just kind of ended up in my lap. I wouldnt trade him for anything in the world... but boy do I know why they call terriers "terrors".

If the dog will have ample opportunity to get exercise than a yorkie could fit into your lifestyle. He likes to play and get into things he shouldnt but after he is tired out for awhile he can sleep like a rock.

However, yorkies do need regular grooming, a lot of the toy breeds seem to need some level of grooming which is why I asked the question about it before... my yorkie gets brushed at least every other day and goes to the groomer every 6 weeks. I suppose if he was cut shorter it would eliminate some of the grooming needs.

I live in an apartment in NYC... so small is an understatement... he does fine here... I have no problems with him barking, he will bark when someone is at the door and a simple enough usually stops him. He is wee wee pad trained so there is no issue with going in and out all day.

Yorkies make very good apartment dogs if they are properly trained so that they do not become constant barkers and they get some kind of exercise... sometimes that consists only of him running the hallways in my building but as long as he is tired it was good enough for him (and me!) He is great with my parents poodles when I visit them and also with my cat... although he was raised on a farm so he was socialized with animals from the time he opened his eyes.

Good Luck and let me know if you have anymore specific questions.

 

[silvrstar25]

I think the best thing to do would be to meet some good representatives of each breed and see how you really feel about them. You've got some commonalities in appearance (upright ears, moderate body, pointed muzzle) but the personalities in these breeds you've listed vary a LOT.

thanks for the insight in the TFT, and you're right I would love to find some TFT's to meet.

 

[silvrstar25]

If I were to leave that little guy alone all day he would probably whither up and die. He is left with my mother, Lilly and my mothers dog all day. They spend the day playing.

AW, that is exactly what I don't want to happen! haha I want want my new lil guy to be happy

 

[silvrstar25]

...chihuahuas also tend to be known as "ankle biters" this little trait is the fault 100% of IRRESPONSIBLE owners, chis need to be trained just like eveyr other dog on the planet, i suggest a good puppy class, LOTS of socilization and continue through with obedience classes as the dog gets older.
chis hold a wonderfull place in my heart and are one of my favorite breeds and could very definatly fit your life perfectly if your willing to train and socilize (and not use the dog as a fashion acessory)

you're totally right, and that is something that I recognized when thinking about the chi. I've met both sides of the spectrum, and ultimately I think it came down to how involved the owner was in training and general socialization. I think they get a bad rep because of the "fashion" aspect the chi can be for some. As I said, this is not a new hat for me. haha I want a dog. This dog will be walking on a leash.