Questions for bully & APBTA 'type' owners
- Thread starter Dogdragoness
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I love people who insinuate that you can always prevent a fight by "managing" your dogs "correctly" (aside from keeping dogs separated from the start, but that would be cheating right?). Small problem with that. Ready?
I've seen several APBTs get into a fight where both dogs (who had never been in a fight previously) had been calmly in the general vicinity of one another, not looking at one another, no tension, no stress, no arousal, nothing to be competitive over, and no body language even remotely suggesting an impending fight. Literally zero to ON faster than a human has the reaction time to process that something has changed or happened, much less prevent the two dogs from connecting...again, unless you're Spiderman.
Now, how would you have "managed" that particular situation in order to prevent the fight? Not quickly and efficiently break up the fight, but PREVENT it from EVER happening, short of never having an APBT out with another dog at the same time.
I've seen several APBTs get into a fight where both dogs (who had never been in a fight previously) had been calmly in the general vicinity of one another, not looking at one another, no tension, no stress, no arousal, nothing to be competitive over, and no body language even remotely suggesting an impending fight. Literally zero to ON faster than a human has the reaction time to process that something has changed or happened, much less prevent the two dogs from connecting...again, unless you're Spiderman.
Now, how would you have "managed" that particular situation in order to prevent the fight? Not quickly and efficiently break up the fight, but PREVENT it from EVER happening, short of never having an APBT out with another dog at the same time.
I guess the most important thing is to prepare for the worst and know your lines.
We had a member here with rotties who had a mother/daughter pair. One day, they each decided the other. must. die. Years later, nothing will convince them otherwise. They can't even be allowed to catch sight of one another crated or they'll go ballistic and try to kill. But they're not like that with other females. They're both show dogs and apparently are fine at shows surrounded by other males and females. I have no idea if the SSA extends to hanging out with other females but I wouldn't risk it.
We had a member here with rotties who had a mother/daughter pair. One day, they each decided the other. must. die. Years later, nothing will convince them otherwise. They can't even be allowed to catch sight of one another crated or they'll go ballistic and try to kill. But they're not like that with other females. They're both show dogs and apparently are fine at shows surrounded by other males and females. I have no idea if the SSA extends to hanging out with other females but I wouldn't risk it.
IME SSA and DA towards non-family dogs are not at all the time same with females. My very SSA GSD was fine to come to work with me at daycare. Males sometimes it is only towards strange males, sometimes towards family males and sometimes towards all males or all _________ males (intact, large, same breed or whatever). Also IME, every mother-daughter pair I've known who fights are not otherwise SSA.
I think it does too.
My GSD (and husky) mix girls play very differently with other dogs. Lily I trust even with chi puppies. And yes she has played with very young chi and doxie pups without issue. She is very very good at modulating her play style depending on who she is playing with. She and Scout or she and her RR boyfriends get really rough when they play. She and Lynley actually bruised each other once when body slamming lol. Lily is also very conscientious of politeness and as she's gotten older she has gotten waaaaaay less tolerant of rude dogs.
Scout is very prone to predatory drift with small dogs and she is not very good at modulating her physical affections appropriately for size. My cat (who is tiny at 7lbs lol) ends up totally slimed when Scout tries to groom her. She could accidentally kill Missy trying to love on her... needless to say they are always supervised.
Other dogs target Scout because she's really unsure and she came to me with TON of really horrific habits regarding dog/dog interations. Between Lily's playground monitor attitude and skills at teaching doggie life skills and my closely monitoring what Scout gets to do, she's improved hugely in that area. Her problem is that she's really insecure, but really really loves other dogs and did not get proper socialization as a puppy. She's so awkward!
There was a lot of snarking and bitchiness when I first took Scout in. It was all resource guarding related though. Lily was PISSED at another permanent dog being mine and before that Scout lived with HER rhodie mix boys which was another big problem. Lily would not leave it alone and it finally took Scout throwing her down to really get the point across. I was right there and broke it up, but if they'd been alone neither would have stopped. And Lily would have lost because Scout is a real big strong dog. As it was Lily wanted to go back for more after I broke it up... but weirdly we've had zero issues since that day and they are actually extremely closely bonded for being unrelated GSD mixes. Lily still makes faces when she's snuggling me in bed, but I invite Scout up on the opposite side and everyone is happy with that truce. A lot of it is that Scout is happy to just let it go and Lily is a real "mom" dog.
I sure as hell wouldn't expect two pit bull bitches to get along though.
Wouldn't bother me to crate and rotate two GSD bitches that didn't like each other, but I don't really see any reason I'd end up that situation. I truly wasn't planning on getting another bitch when I ended up with Scout though, so who knows!
My GSD (and husky) mix girls play very differently with other dogs. Lily I trust even with chi puppies. And yes she has played with very young chi and doxie pups without issue. She is very very good at modulating her play style depending on who she is playing with. She and Scout or she and her RR boyfriends get really rough when they play. She and Lynley actually bruised each other once when body slamming lol. Lily is also very conscientious of politeness and as she's gotten older she has gotten waaaaaay less tolerant of rude dogs.
Scout is very prone to predatory drift with small dogs and she is not very good at modulating her physical affections appropriately for size. My cat (who is tiny at 7lbs lol) ends up totally slimed when Scout tries to groom her. She could accidentally kill Missy trying to love on her... needless to say they are always supervised.
Other dogs target Scout because she's really unsure and she came to me with TON of really horrific habits regarding dog/dog interations. Between Lily's playground monitor attitude and skills at teaching doggie life skills and my closely monitoring what Scout gets to do, she's improved hugely in that area. Her problem is that she's really insecure, but really really loves other dogs and did not get proper socialization as a puppy. She's so awkward!
There was a lot of snarking and bitchiness when I first took Scout in. It was all resource guarding related though. Lily was PISSED at another permanent dog being mine and before that Scout lived with HER rhodie mix boys which was another big problem. Lily would not leave it alone and it finally took Scout throwing her down to really get the point across. I was right there and broke it up, but if they'd been alone neither would have stopped. And Lily would have lost because Scout is a real big strong dog. As it was Lily wanted to go back for more after I broke it up... but weirdly we've had zero issues since that day and they are actually extremely closely bonded for being unrelated GSD mixes. Lily still makes faces when she's snuggling me in bed, but I invite Scout up on the opposite side and everyone is happy with that truce. A lot of it is that Scout is happy to just let it go and Lily is a real "mom" dog.
I sure as hell wouldn't expect two pit bull bitches to get along though.
Wouldn't bother me to crate and rotate two GSD bitches that didn't like each other, but I don't really see any reason I'd end up that situation. I truly wasn't planning on getting another bitch when I ended up with Scout though, so who knows!
I don't think there is a way to tell. SSA comes with maturity and I think, exposure to triggers. I always wondered if I didn't have another same sex, same age dog with Jora if she would have ended up SSA or not. Say if I had waited until she was 4 or 5 before getting another girl. I think once it is triggered though, there is no going back.
When I get dogs now, I do ask how their parents are with other dogs. How is the line in general with other dogs. And I avoid breeds known for SSA. I have known a few Belgians with some SSA issues but it seems pretty rare to find the same degree of outright wanting to kill the other dog that you see fairly regularly with GSDs. When my Belgian girls get into it, I can usually break them up pretty easily by yelling at them or just walking away/closing the door (lol for real, they're like "oh...nevermind..."), let everyone settle down and all is well again. Usually this stuff starts over who can go outside first or who's in who's way or who's in who's space so there's also ways to avoid issues. With the GSDs, when they would fight it was extremely hard to separate them and they never came away from it without injury.
When I get dogs now, I do ask how their parents are with other dogs. How is the line in general with other dogs. And I avoid breeds known for SSA. I have known a few Belgians with some SSA issues but it seems pretty rare to find the same degree of outright wanting to kill the other dog that you see fairly regularly with GSDs. When my Belgian girls get into it, I can usually break them up pretty easily by yelling at them or just walking away/closing the door (lol for real, they're like "oh...nevermind..."), let everyone settle down and all is well again. Usually this stuff starts over who can go outside first or who's in who's way or who's in who's space so there's also ways to avoid issues. With the GSDs, when they would fight it was extremely hard to separate them and they never came away from it without injury.
I don't think that she said "always," just that what she has done has worked and can work. My pit bull/pit bull mix lives well with my lab. I made sure I got a male, a puppy, and a breed that tended to be more socially laid back. Knock on wood, we have not had any incidents-Sally is actually pretty tolerant and goes out of her way to warn Jack when he is pushing it, and he seems to know how to deal with her to keep the peace even when she is being a b!tch, even though he is not a super submissive dog. There is a chance that at 8 years old she could decide she hates him, and if it comes we will deal with it, but barring that we will manage. They are not allowed to be loose together when we are not home, we separate them with high value objects, and go from there. The only blood we've had has actually been caused by Jack during play (plays way rougher with her than any other dog) and when that happened Sally didn't even acknowledge it-just kept playing. BUT, when he can tell she super serious about something he backs off.
Knox and Indy are very much herder brained idiots. Knox's favorite thing to do to girls to let them know he likes them is to drag them around by their back leg. I've tried telling him that's not the way to win hearts, but he doesn't listen. 
Indy drags him around by the ear though, so I guess turnabouts fair play. But yeah, he's an idiot when he plays. He'll bounce forward with both feet slapping the ground, head thrown back, ect. Not a lot of dogs understand wtf he's doing though.
Knox plays well with all girls, and males that will either ignore the crap out of him at first or males that are submissive enough to show they don't want to go there. He is very intolerant of male puppies in his face. For some reason boy puppies absolutely adore him. They get right up in his face and start licking his chin and lips and ears. He gets fed up pretty quickly, which is why he seldom comes to daycare. He will pick up and throttle young dogs. He doesn't leave holes, and can be told off of it, but for whatever reason, he's a magnet for young stupid boy dogs.
Mine too. We've adopted a sort of loose crate/rotate thing. If both of us are home, we'll have all four upstairs. If it's just one person at home, we'll only have out a pair, or the girls and Knox. Ozzy is pointy dog intolerant lol. He ignores Indy, but she's a pushy bitch, and will stand there going "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you" ect. We discourage this, but still, dogs are like children, and one of them will start wailing "SHE'S LOOOKING AT MEEEE"
Ozzy and Knox can sit down and watch a PG13 movie together and that's about it. They're both so toy focused that anything that brings out drive will set Ozzy off at Knox, and they have this attitude with each other that they will not quit. They've scuffled a few times, Ozzy meant it, I'm not sure Knox did, because Knox had holes all over him, but Oz didn't have anything but spit on him. So while I don't pretend Knox has some level of SSA, I'm just not sure to what extent it is.
I've always lived by the quote "When males fight, it's typically to make a point. When bitches fight, they're usually trying to kill each other."
So far, it's served me well lol
Indy drags him around by the ear though, so I guess turnabouts fair play. But yeah, he's an idiot when he plays. He'll bounce forward with both feet slapping the ground, head thrown back, ect. Not a lot of dogs understand wtf he's doing though.
Knox plays well with all girls, and males that will either ignore the crap out of him at first or males that are submissive enough to show they don't want to go there. He is very intolerant of male puppies in his face. For some reason boy puppies absolutely adore him. They get right up in his face and start licking his chin and lips and ears. He gets fed up pretty quickly, which is why he seldom comes to daycare. He will pick up and throttle young dogs. He doesn't leave holes, and can be told off of it, but for whatever reason, he's a magnet for young stupid boy dogs.
Mine too. We've adopted a sort of loose crate/rotate thing. If both of us are home, we'll have all four upstairs. If it's just one person at home, we'll only have out a pair, or the girls and Knox. Ozzy is pointy dog intolerant lol. He ignores Indy, but she's a pushy bitch, and will stand there going "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you" ect. We discourage this, but still, dogs are like children, and one of them will start wailing "SHE'S LOOOKING AT MEEEE"
Ozzy and Knox can sit down and watch a PG13 movie together and that's about it. They're both so toy focused that anything that brings out drive will set Ozzy off at Knox, and they have this attitude with each other that they will not quit. They've scuffled a few times, Ozzy meant it, I'm not sure Knox did, because Knox had holes all over him, but Oz didn't have anything but spit on him. So while I don't pretend Knox has some level of SSA, I'm just not sure to what extent it is.
I've always lived by the quote "When males fight, it's typically to make a point. When bitches fight, they're usually trying to kill each other."
So far, it's served me well lol
Loki and Terra always have two barriers between them when humans are absent. Loki has run of the house these days, while Terra is in a crate shut in a bedroom. I feel comfortable narrowing it down to one barrier when I am supervising. Example: Loki loose in the yard while Terra is in her privacy fence pen, or Terra loose in the house while Loki is shut in a bedroom.
Both are females of differing intact status. One raised with the other from puppyhood. Played well for the first year. We had a male the same age as Terra, and he ran with the girls. Eventually, we ended up with a scrap between each pair. Spent a rough period of time figuring out who could go with who under which circumstances. Eventually worked out the system, but not without scarring. Which is why some APBT folks just keep their dogs separate full-time. I prefer to allow them to socialize under control until it can no longer be that way. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
Loki's main issue is a lot of need for personal space and respect-mah-authoritah! SHE will initiate play when SHE feels like playing. Otherwise, her alone. She's laying in the sun? Don't sniff her. She's got anything in her mouth? Don't look at her. Someone in the room eating food? Don't breathe in her vicinity. When she's feeling sociable, she's great with other dogs. She's never scrapped with a non-APBT. Her first fight was when another dog ran up on her outside the ring at a show and grabbed her; she reacted by crying and then fighting back. Since that time, she has gotten progressively more offensive and willing to go the second she feels the tension. She will offer normal warning behaviors sometimes, but if the other dog wants it for real, it's just on. That fast.
Terra's issue is more excitement/redirection, as well as probably some predatory drift. When we had Priest, he used to vocalize a lot, and his barking would spark Terra glomping on his head. She could escalate in play to fighting, which makes her tricky to deal with. These days she could play with a male dog as long as he is not excitable or overly vocal. I wouldn't even try her with another female. She has barrier issues as well. I used to crate her and Loki in the same room and let them loose in turns. I was coming back to Loki's crate bloodied from the outside when Terra was loose. Last big fight we had was when Terra got excited and hit a canvas crate Loki was in. Loki hit back from the inside and that crate just disintegrated.
Now when we had Priest -- intact male -- he was very good with his girls even when they were not good with him. He would fight back when attacked, and sometimes unwittingly provoked the fight in the first place just by being a dumbass. But the only time I ever saw him start a fight was with a complete stranger (a spayed female). So I would say Priest was the typical territorial male. He had his girls, no desire to make friends with any other.
So. I've had the experience of different types of aggression in this breed, all with the same bloody results. Male/female pairings work the best, but even that is not foolproof. I am going to say that in my experience the power is an issue, but the big difference seems to be complete commitment to the task at hand. 0.5 seconds in, those dogs already know they're going to kill each other. No tapping out.
Sometimes if it starts as a misunderstanding, they might cool down and be able to hang together again after its stopped. Or sometimes they really seem to take it personally after that. I think Loki and Terra's first throw-down -- in which they never got holds and in which Priest danced around the outside and nipped them, "fight, fight!" -- was an unexpected thing for them. But when reintroduced later, they were both tense and it just started up again. So they have been separated since then. Things have settled a bit where I can at least travel with both dogs crated and no drama, and we can take walks with two handlers. They don't spit fire and threaten each other. And sometimes they will sniff at each other like normal dogs interacting. But if they are close enough to reach, they will go.
There are obviously dogs that never have a problem, and I have mixed feelings about said dogs. I'm happy they can live life as normal dogs. But they impress the minds of newbies and said newbs think we must be exaggerating when we talk about dog-aggression. Or they wonder what is wrong with our dogs that they cannot be together.
My vote is to allow for sensible socialization, but for the love of all that is good in this world, be prepared. Set your dogs up for success, and don't get caught with your pants down.
Both are females of differing intact status. One raised with the other from puppyhood. Played well for the first year. We had a male the same age as Terra, and he ran with the girls. Eventually, we ended up with a scrap between each pair. Spent a rough period of time figuring out who could go with who under which circumstances. Eventually worked out the system, but not without scarring. Which is why some APBT folks just keep their dogs separate full-time. I prefer to allow them to socialize under control until it can no longer be that way. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
Loki's main issue is a lot of need for personal space and respect-mah-authoritah! SHE will initiate play when SHE feels like playing. Otherwise, her alone. She's laying in the sun? Don't sniff her. She's got anything in her mouth? Don't look at her. Someone in the room eating food? Don't breathe in her vicinity. When she's feeling sociable, she's great with other dogs. She's never scrapped with a non-APBT. Her first fight was when another dog ran up on her outside the ring at a show and grabbed her; she reacted by crying and then fighting back. Since that time, she has gotten progressively more offensive and willing to go the second she feels the tension. She will offer normal warning behaviors sometimes, but if the other dog wants it for real, it's just on. That fast.
Terra's issue is more excitement/redirection, as well as probably some predatory drift. When we had Priest, he used to vocalize a lot, and his barking would spark Terra glomping on his head. She could escalate in play to fighting, which makes her tricky to deal with. These days she could play with a male dog as long as he is not excitable or overly vocal. I wouldn't even try her with another female. She has barrier issues as well. I used to crate her and Loki in the same room and let them loose in turns. I was coming back to Loki's crate bloodied from the outside when Terra was loose. Last big fight we had was when Terra got excited and hit a canvas crate Loki was in. Loki hit back from the inside and that crate just disintegrated.
Now when we had Priest -- intact male -- he was very good with his girls even when they were not good with him. He would fight back when attacked, and sometimes unwittingly provoked the fight in the first place just by being a dumbass. But the only time I ever saw him start a fight was with a complete stranger (a spayed female). So I would say Priest was the typical territorial male. He had his girls, no desire to make friends with any other.
So. I've had the experience of different types of aggression in this breed, all with the same bloody results. Male/female pairings work the best, but even that is not foolproof. I am going to say that in my experience the power is an issue, but the big difference seems to be complete commitment to the task at hand. 0.5 seconds in, those dogs already know they're going to kill each other. No tapping out.
Sometimes if it starts as a misunderstanding, they might cool down and be able to hang together again after its stopped. Or sometimes they really seem to take it personally after that. I think Loki and Terra's first throw-down -- in which they never got holds and in which Priest danced around the outside and nipped them, "fight, fight!" -- was an unexpected thing for them. But when reintroduced later, they were both tense and it just started up again. So they have been separated since then. Things have settled a bit where I can at least travel with both dogs crated and no drama, and we can take walks with two handlers. They don't spit fire and threaten each other. And sometimes they will sniff at each other like normal dogs interacting. But if they are close enough to reach, they will go.
There are obviously dogs that never have a problem, and I have mixed feelings about said dogs. I'm happy they can live life as normal dogs. But they impress the minds of newbies and said newbs think we must be exaggerating when we talk about dog-aggression. Or they wonder what is wrong with our dogs that they cannot be together.
My vote is to allow for sensible socialization, but for the love of all that is good in this world, be prepared. Set your dogs up for success, and don't get caught with your pants down.
You're quite welcome, Renee. I've been taken to task for talking about the mistakes I've made with my dogs, but it's all just part of the bigger picture. If someone were to visit me today without the backstory, they'd probably think I was a weirdo for never having both dogs even in the same room at once.
I think it's that way with quite a few breeds -- even mixed. Look at how offensive some of the rescue-philes get! There are so many reasons I quit bothering with Fila boards, and the BC people around here are some of the biggest jerkwads you'll meet in any breed. Most of the Mal people around here are either the K9 officers or the wannabes and, for the most part, shouldn't be trusted with a Maltese, let alone a Malinois :wall:
Go with the breeds you love and screw what goes on with anyone else. You and your dogs are all that really matter.
Go with the breeds you love and screw what goes on with anyone else. You and your dogs are all that really matter.
As was said, there are buttholes in every breed. (Although I don't consider SevenSins to be a butthole by any means...)
I mean, I own 4 different breeds currently. The American Pit Bull Terrier, Rhodesian Ridgeback, Dachshund, and Labrador Retriever. "Breed snobs" are definitely not just in the pit bull category.
I mean, I own 4 different breeds currently. The American Pit Bull Terrier, Rhodesian Ridgeback, Dachshund, and Labrador Retriever. "Breed snobs" are definitely not just in the pit bull category.