Prey drive = toy drive ??

[Elrohwen]

I'm hoping someone can clear up some things about training with prey drive and toy drive that are confusing to me. Are they basically the same? Different but similar? Different and unrelated?

Sometimes I hear about people training in what they call prey drive, but it seems like they're really training in toy drive. For example, they say they want a BC for agility with high prey drive, so they can reward with toys instead of food. To me, they really want a dog with high toy drive, but not necessarily high prey drive (because they probably don't want the dog focusing on every squirrel they walk past). I've also heard people talk about Sch/IPO as training in prey drive, but again it seems more like toy drive, or maybe some other drive, but not necessarily prey as I understand it (which is why I think I might not understand it correctly).

IME though, prey and toy drive don't necessarily go together. Watson has pretty strong prey drive when it comes to actual animals. Seeing a cat will cause him to flip out, and using his nose to hunt animals is his favorite thing. Nothing gets in his way when he wants to go after prey. His toy drive is only meh though. He'll fetch about 10 times before he wants to go off and sniff things. He'll tug like crazy when he's in the mood, but again can be easily distracted by actual prey outside. Maybe his prey drive could be used to build more toy drive if I was a better trainer, but they don't seem to be the same thing to me.

So what's the definition of these prey drive and toy drive? How do you understand them? And most importantly, how do you personally make use of them in training?

 

[PWCorgi]

Um, well. Siri... has prey drive. If the rattie girls scuffle she is there in .2 seconds, eyes hard, every muscle rigid. Sometimes she forgets the rules and screams/slams herself into their cage (and promptly lands herself in a crate). She has killed living things, with lots of pleasure. She screams and loses her cool if she sees a bird on the ground, or a squirrel.

There are times when I shake a fuzzy fur tug in her face, make it run around like a critter, and she stares at my like "Really? You really think I'm going to fall for that?". Sometimes she'll engage, but sometimes she doesn't. She'll drop a toy when asked. She cannot tear herself away from the rat cage without being physically moved away. So I wouldn't say she has a high toy drive.

She does, however, LOVE tennis balls. BUT...only if they squeak. If she picks up a tennis ball and it doesn't squeak, she drops it again and walks away. And it must be fuzzy, not a plastic substitute. I really do think that the reason she likes them so much is that they squeak like an animal.

As far as training goes, while I wish I could bring a squirrel on a leash to reward her with , I can't. So instead I am working on re-building some tug drive (she used to be an insane tugger, then went into heat, and now doesn't really care for tug for more than 30 seconds) so that we can use it in agility. Right now we rely on the ball too much, and it slows down training.

For out and about training I try to use Premack as much as possible. At the park if we see a squirrel, I will ask for attention, and if she gives it, I release her to chase the squirrel, but only if the squirrel is already in the tree, I don't want her actually catching a squirrel.

 

[Oko]

I think of toy drive as prey drive. Chasing, ripping apart, grabbing, etc. as for the squirrel thing, I also teach my dog to focus on me and that you can't just leave to chase squirrels unless I've given permission. So that prey drive is managed because I don't want it happening.

Feist is really into toys so it's not a problem for me, she hasn't really noticed critters yet and she calls off stalking my cats. But I'm sure we will have issues once she's not a baby that we will work through.

 

[Elrohwen]

Um, well. Siri... has prey drive. If the rattie girls scuffle she is there in .2 seconds, eyes hard, every muscle rigid. Sometimes she forgets the rules and screams/slams herself into their cage (and promptly lands herself in a crate). She has killed living things, with lots of pleasure. She screams and loses her cool if she sees a bird on the ground, or a squirrel.

There are times when I shake a fuzzy fur tug in her face, make it run around like a critter, and she stares at my like "Really? You really think I'm going to fall for that?". Sometimes she'll engage, but sometimes she doesn't. She'll drop a toy when asked. She cannot tear herself away from the rat cage without being physically moved away. So I wouldn't say she has a high toy drive.

Sounds like a terrier to me! Haha. I grew up with schnauzers and know a JRT well, and all were like that. Super high prey drive for actual animals, but shake a toy in their face and they thought you were crazy.

As far as training goes, while I wish I could bring a squirrel on a leash to reward her with , I can't.

Agreed.

For out and about training I try to use Premack as much as possible. At the park if we see a squirrel, I will ask for attention, and if she gives it, I release her to chase the squirrel, but only if the squirrel is already in the tree, I don't want her actually catching a squirrel.

Yes, I do this a lot too. Generally his actual prey drive is manageable in public (except for deer right now - he's nuts for them), but it doesn't seem to translate into anything I can actually train with for the most part (by training I mean use for agility or obedience, not just train loose leash or something). I think part of it may be that his prey drive is linked to his hunt drive - the best part of going after prey is sniffing where they were and tracking them. A tug is fun, but doesn't leave a scent you can track down like a squirrel does. He's much more scent oriented than visual. Maybe I need smelly toys!

 

[crazedACD]

I agree with you Elrohwen.. Romeo does not care about squirrels, birds, etc. My pet birds can sit on his head (he hates it) but he doesn't bother them at all. He is toy crazy though, any kind of toy he goes nuts for.

Skye doesn't care for toys outside of the house really, she isn't toy driven at all, but she has huge prey drive. Squirrels, stray cats, and so forth. She cannot be trusted with my pet birds.

I think they are different drives.

 

[Laurelin]

I think they're different and also it is oversimplified in general. Mia has high chase drive but not any catch and kill really. She loves hunting out animals and chasing them but she seem to relish the chase only.

Similarly certain toys she's nuts for and others not so much.

 

[Elrohwen]

I think of toy drive as prey drive. Chasing, ripping apart, grabbing, etc. as for the squirrel thing, I also teach my dog to focus on me and that you can't just leave to chase squirrels unless I've given permission. So that prey drive is managed because I don't want it happening.

Feist is really into toys so it's not a problem for me, she hasn't really noticed critters yet and she calls off stalking my cats. But I'm sure we will have issues once she's not a baby that we will work through.

Watson's nose didn't turn on until about 5 months, and he's been tracking things down ever since. His prey drive didn't really turn on fully until just recently. He would look at squirrels or something, but it was fairly easy to get him back and focused on me. Lately he has flipped out about deer and cats to the point where I'm just hanging on for the ride, and absolutely nothing gets through to him. So maybe his toy drive will pick up too? I would like to use toys in agility training, but not sure yet if he would be interested enough in a tug during class to use it reliably. I'd also like to tire him out with fetch, but he gives up quickly despite using drive building techniques (like never let him end the game) for months.

 

[SizzleDog]

IMO, they're different. Also IMO.... chase drive and prey drive are also different. Kaylee has over-the-top chase drive, but not quite as much actual prey drive.

 

[Elrohwen]

I agree with you Elrohwen.. Romeo does not care about squirrels, birds, etc. My pet birds can sit on his head (he hates it) but he doesn't bother them at all. He is toy crazy though, any kind of toy he goes nuts for.

Skye doesn't care for toys outside of the house really, she isn't toy driven at all, but she has huge prey drive. Squirrels, stray cats, and so forth. She cannot be trusted with my pet birds.

I think they are different drives.

Good to know someone else has similar experiences! From your pictures it looks like the toy driven one is the herder, and the prey driven one is the hunting dog, which totally makes sense from what I've seen. I know BCs who go nuts for any toy or stick, but walk by squirrels off leash without a second glance - to me that's toy drive, not prey drive.

I think they're different and also it is oversimplified in general. Mia has high chase drive but not any catch and kill really. She loves hunting out animals and chasing them but she seem to relish the chase only.

Similarly certain toys she's nuts for and others not so much.

Good point. Watson lives for sniffing and chasing, but I don't think he'd necessarily kill if he caught something, so I think it's more complex than it seems initially. I've never seen him shake a toy to "kill" it, and that was something my terriers did every single day. The JRT I knew killed small animals, but out and about she wasn't interested in hunting or tracking them - just getting to them and killing them once she knew where they were. So Watson is fairly safe with rabbits in the house because he's very interested, but doesn't want to kill them necessarily (he doesn't even try to jump the baby gate). The JRT would never have been safe with rabbits in the house, even with the rabbits in a locked room.

 

[Linds]

Yeah, when I think about it or talk about it in terms of my dogs I think of toy drive and prey drive as different branches off the same tree.

Traveler and Didgie both have a lot of toy drive, they love chasing, tugging, running after all types of toys and they are immensely rewarding.

Kaylee on the other hand had pretty much no interest at all in toys or tugging (though she loved the flirt pole for brief periods of time) but she had an immense prey drive and would take off with no hesitation after anything alive that moved (or didn't) outside. The number of times I was running after her screaming because she saw a deer or a raccoon or a skunk were numerous. She also happily caught and killed what she could.

I used to reward Kaylee with a ferret sniff when training because that was about the highest reward she could get.

Traveler on the other hand has pretty much no interest in live animals outside at all. He notices fast movement and will sometimes start towards them but as soon as he figures out it isn't a toy he looses interest.

Didgie has more interest and has been known to take off up a tree after a squirrel or raccoon but it's no where near what Kaylee's prey drive was and no where near Didgie's level of toy drive. I like the term chase drive for this because it's really the motion that she cares about.

I do think things get confusing when we have terms for every little thing, especially when everyones terms are a little different. But, I have trouble putting prey drive and toy drive in the same box when they can be expressed so completely differently.

 

[yv0nne]

They are 100% different! I mean, they are similar but a dog with high prey/ chase drive won't love toys always& the opposite is true as well. My Border Collie would call of ANYTHING for a tug. He would so much as even look at anything else, really.

Meanwhile, the Vizsla will chase AND kill anything she can catch. She loves motion so in agility we reward with a ball. It took a long time to build tug drive so let's take a moment& celebrate that she FINALLY will tug anywhere when I ask.

 

[DenoLo]

Lola loves her toys. She loves anything that can be thrown and picked up. She'll happily shake her stuffies to death and squeak her squeakers. She catches moths, chases squirrels in the yard.

However, the one and only time she cornered herself a mouse- the mouse went on the offensive and gave a little jump at her. That dog skittered away 5 feet and barked the same bark at it she uses to tell big dogs they are being too rough. So...long story short I think her chadr and kill drive is lacking :rofl1:

 

[Elrohwen]

Yeah, when I think about it or talk about it in terms of my dogs I think of toy drive and prey drive as different branches off the same tree.

Yeah, this pretty much where I am. Toy drive seems like an offshoot of prey, because the entire reason dogs chase and tug things is due to being prey animals (my bunnies certainly aren't into fetch or tug ). But they do seem to show up independently a lot.

They are 100% different! I mean, they are similar but a dog with high prey/ chase drive won't love toys always& the opposite is true as well. My Border Collie would call of ANYTHING for a tug. He would so much as even look at anything else, really.

Meanwhile, the Vizsla will chase AND kill anything she can catch. She loves motion so in agility we reward with a ball. It took a long time to build tug drive so let's take a moment& celebrate that she FINALLY will tug anywhere when I ask.

Yay! That's a huge accomplishment!

Watson's tug drive is stronger than his chase drive, but I haven't really taken it on the road much. I should try to focus on it more so he doesn't lose that as he grows up. I'm considering getting a fur tug to try and combine his furry critter obsession with tugging, but I feel bad about getting one made of rabbit fur when we have two rabbits in the house. Haha

 

[Elrohwen]

However, the one and only time she cornered herself a mouse- the mouse went on the offensive and gave a little jump at her. That dog skittered away 5 feet and barked the same bark at it she uses to tell big dogs they are being too rough. So...long story short I think her chadr and kill drive is lacking :rofl1:

Haha. I'm sure this is what Watson would do.

He's obsessed with the loose cats in our neighborhood and now at the agility barn and really wants to go after them. The one cat he knows in person swatted at him once (without making contact) and Watson is terrified of him. He gives that cat at least 10-15 feet of space at all times.

 

[release the hounds]

I think if they like to chase things they have prey drive. That's it. I doubt mother nature instilled ball drive in my dogs. I think people like to try and break things down too much just so they have something to talk about

Sure some dogs like to chase squirrels but not balls, but some dogs like to chase rabbits and not birds, do they have rabbit drive, but not bird drive? or is it that birds just don't reach their threshold to illicit a prey chasing response?

I don't think they are any different, it just takes different stimulus and different thresholds for different dogs and those can change over time too for the same dog. Doesn't mean they have more or less drive, just different thresholds to illicit a response.

Prey sequence, eye, stalk, chase, grab-bite, kill-bite, dissect and eat. like anything dog, it's not hard fast rules but generally accepted. A pointer points because his brain gets shut off in the stalk part of the prey sequence. It doesn't meat I can't toss in a chicken and watch them dissect it.

And because my GSD catches a rabbit and does the stalk, chase, grab, and kill but never disects, doesn't mean it won't eat it when I skin it or tear the skin open a bit, and my other will do it all.

If it chases things it has prey drive. your ball might not stimulate it or the running squirrel might not get a passing glance. Maybe nature gave them different threshholds, maybe they just learned that squirrels aren't their prey item because they were never allowed to chase them? That happens too, and some dogs if they don't learn it in a certain window of time when they're young, they never learn that certain things can be chased or are natural prey items.

A cat might make a perfectly good meal to a dog, and if they're raised with them the might never see a cat as a meal, ever. Doesn't mean cats aren't, or that the dog doesn't have prey drive.

I think it is just thresholds and stimulus. I don't think there are toy drives and prey drive. What about the dog that will chase turkeys and deer, but not squirrels and rabbits? prey drive? or just deer drive? or likes to chase cars, do they have car drive? or will play with a rope and ball, but not a bite pillow? do they have rope and ball drive?

I think these terms just stand to create more confusion rather than clarify anything.

 

[Beanie]

I don't think they are any different, it just takes different stimulus and different thresholds for different dogs and those can change over time too for the same dog. Doesn't mean they have more or less drive, just different thresholds to illicit a response.

I agree with this.

 

[JessLough]

Yeah, this pretty much where I am. Toy drive seems like an offshoot of prey, because the entire reason dogs chase and tug things is due to being prey animals (my bunnies certainly aren't into fetch or tug ).a

Both the bunnies that were at the pet expo would fetch.

My childhood bunny would play fetch AND tug.

 

[Elrohwen]

Both the bunnies that were at the pet expo would fetch.

My childhood bunny would play fetch AND tug.

That is adorable! I vaguely tried to teach them to fetch but gave up on it. One will pick up things and run away with them though. Usually bags of treats that my husband is dumb enough to leave on the ground (after the 5th time she stole it, you'd think he would learn).

I get people who ask me why their bunnies won't "play" with objects, and I wonder if they expect them to stalk, chase, and pick up things like dogs and cats. Some do, sure, but as prey animals it's not really their thing most of the time. I think some people over look that and assume all animals play like dogs and cats.

 

[krissy]

Haven't had time to read through all the other responses yet. But just briefly here's my take....

To me toy drive stems from prey drive at a primitive/instinctual level, however a dog can have one or both or none.

For example... Summit has zero prey drive and moderate toy drive. He lives with my 3 rabbits is actually a little nervous of them since one likes to jump on him while he sleeps and sit on his chest. He has had rabbits run across his path when he's been off leash on trails and he never batted an eye. When I got him he wouldn't look at a toy. We had to build that ourselves.

On the other hand Kili has low-moderate prey drive and high toy drive. I have discouraged any prey drive in her since she lives with my rabbits, but I have encouraged her toy drive for sports. She would like to play with my bunnies and treats them like small puppies. However, she gets SUPER excited/interested in cats, squirrels and birds outside. Now, I don't know if she would chase to kill or just chase because she wants to investigate. I think honestly she has mostly CHASE drive as opposed to PREY drive (I don't think she's thinking KILL KILL KILL! though I wouldn't be shocked if instinct kicked in).

That said, the way we usually encourage toy drive is really by exciting any prey drive the dog has. When we talk tug mechanics you are always told not to shove things in your dogs face but instead of move the toy away from your dog and low to the ground. Kili's favourite thing is her lure whip. Even Summit who has lower toy interest gets quite excited by the lure whip. It excites them in the same way that prey would. I'm speaking of a breed where prey drive is generally considered HIGH of course, so making toys look like prey makes sense.

 

[Sekah]

I think if they like to chase things they have prey drive. That's it. I doubt mother nature instilled ball drive in my dogs. I think people like to try and break things down too much just so they have something to talk about

Sure some dogs like to chase squirrels but not balls, but some dogs like to chase rabbits and not birds, do they have rabbit drive, but not bird drive? or is it that birds just don't reach their threshold to illicit a prey chasing response?

I don't think they are any different, it just takes different stimulus and different thresholds for different dogs and those can change over time too for the same dog. Doesn't mean they have more or less drive, just different thresholds to illicit a response.

Prey sequence, eye, stalk, chase, grab-bite, kill-bite, dissect and eat. like anything dog, it's not hard fast rules but generally accepted. A pointer points because his brain gets shut off in the stalk part of the prey sequence. It doesn't meat I can't toss in a chicken and watch them dissect it.

And because my GSD catches a rabbit and does the stalk, chase, grab, and kill but never disects, doesn't mean it won't eat it when I skin it or tear the skin open a bit, and my other will do it all.

If it chases things it has prey drive. your ball might not stimulate it or the running squirrel might not get a passing glance. Maybe nature gave them different threshholds, maybe they just learned that squirrels aren't their prey item because they were never allowed to chase them? That happens too, and some dogs if they don't learn it in a certain window of time when they're young, they never learn that certain things can be chased or are natural prey items.

A cat might make a perfectly good meal to a dog, and if they're raised with them the might never see a cat as a meal, ever. Doesn't mean cats aren't, or that the dog doesn't have prey drive.

I think it is just thresholds and stimulus. I don't think there are toy drives and prey drive. What about the dog that will chase turkeys and deer, but not squirrels and rabbits? prey drive? or just deer drive? or likes to chase cars, do they have car drive? or will play with a rope and ball, but not a bite pillow? do they have rope and ball drive?

I think these terms just stand to create more confusion rather than clarify anything.

Well put. I think the basic gist of "drives" in animals are natural impulses to do things which aid in survival. The basic drives are things like prey, reproduction, food... Things like play are offshoots of prey/reproduction.

I think people use terms like "toy drive" "ball drive" "tug drive" is because we as people like to compartmentalize things. But unfortunately in doing so you lose the original definition of the word "drive".