Everyone I've ever talked to about prongs says the proper way to use them is a quick pop. What do you think the proper way is? My current trainer is a police K9 trainer and this is what he says. My former trainer is a TD/CGC trainer and this is what she said.
Our city police are FINALLY changing the way that they're doing things, as are so many police K9 academy's. This is really not just my opinion, it's what is currently happening in the world of dog training due to research.
If you are pushing, shoving and yanking on him then you are not doing it right.
Let me put it this way. I use positive methods on my dog- rewards for doing the right thing, NILIF, etc. But when I'm on a walk and he decides to ignore my request to not pay attention to the dog that is 10' away, and he starts to pull tight on his lead, a good pop with the prong and a strong verbal correction gets him to refocus on me and we move on from there. I could click a clicker all day in that case and not get a response. When he walks by a dog and remains on a loose lead and pays attention to me while we're passing by, he gets TONS of praise and positive reinforcement. When he doesn't, he gets a sharp correction. No yanking, tugging, shoving or pulling is done.
Giving pops on a prong collar in response to a trigger (dog 10' away) is not teaching your dog anything except to expect correction in the presence of other dogs. That is absolutely the opposite of what to do if you want to TRAIN him. As for control (which is different), using newtrix or no pull harness, you have the ability to introduce desensitization methods (treat/toy) for no reaction when a trigger is present....With the methods you're using now he's only "being good" because he's affraid of the prong "pop" correction...not because he's LEARNED to accept the "trigger". I'm not saying at all that your trying to be mean to your dog, just that there's a better, safer, kinder and much more effective way for both of you. And, really....you did ask the question
I found the click/treat thing doesnt' work well for me. 1- he's not really food motivated. 2- he will take so long to eat the tiniest tidbit of treat, it takes away from the focus of our training session. He will literally chew and savor a 1/4" piece of treat and take 15 seconds to eat it.
You may have to change your treat to something like a smear of peanut butter in a zip lock bag that he gets a quick lick of, or if food's not his idea of a gold reward, try a quick tug interaction with a favorite toy. Every dog has his price you just have to find what works for your dog. I've never had a dog resistant to this kind of training. Especially an extremely intelligent breed like the one you have. You may need to get better instruction on timing and reward.
I don't think using a prong is necessarily a compulsion type of training method if you use it properly. You can use positive methods and have the prong as a reserve if/when you need it. It's power steering for a large and strong dog. Using the prong in this case for the original poster could mean the difference of being dragged down the street or having the dog walk calmly. It works almost immediately. Then you can work on the clicker part and take your time, because it will take a bit of work to get him to respond to that. As far as the prong goes for my dog, I can take him to ob class and not have to use it one time for correction. I can walk him for 45 minutes and maybe use it once. All of my commands when we are walking or training are done with a soft voice- we use "heel" as a loose lead walk command. "halt" means stop and sit- we do this at every road intersection. I use "foos" when I want a strict heel, paying attention to me, head up, right at my thigh. "slow" means, well, slow down, you are getting too far ahead- even though he's still on a loose lead when I give him this. If he decides to ignore me and gets to a tight lead, I pop him with the collar- ONE time. No yanking, tugging, struggling with him. This dog completely trusts and respects me. He is not fearful of me at all and has NEVER made a single aggressive overture towards my wife or I while we train and I expect that will never happen because of the relationship we have.
No certified trainer would tell you that prong collars are not aversive/compulsive training tools. That is exactly what they are. What I'm saying is that other control methods are much more effective and do not include a pain response. I'm sounding redundant but he's only stopping the behavior because he doesn't want the correction, you can call it fear of correction or whatever else but it certainly is not desensitizing him to the trigger..."learning" is not taking place. Does his "learning" remain when the collar comes off? What I'm suggesting is using another control method with training (desensitization and obedience) so that you can eventually rely on the effect that your training has produced rather than relying on just the presence of the prong collar
I'm just throwing out an option for this person to use with a big uncontrollable dog. If you dont agree that's cool. I realize it's not the only way or not even the best way but I think it's a way that will let them get control of the dog and then begin to work it with the clicker. This way works for me and I get tons of compliments on how well trained my dog is (off leash as well, so the prong is not a crutch if he's doing what I want in public off leash) I think he's got a long way to go to be where I want him to be but our progress has been consistent and he gets better every day.
This method may appear to work for you and your dog and you may never have any problems with it but as a trainer I deal with the other, more common negative consequences that the use of this device can cause. I'm not sure why anyone would, knowing the other methods exist and produce a better, safer and again gentler result, would still choose to use pain.
