mordy help

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Whitedobelover

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#1
OKay i have a question...my dobermans are allergic to beef i think is what we have determined. the poultry is okay... pure beef is almost purely protien can this possibly cause crystals in urine? can it cause digestive problems? what do you think...

thanks mordy... and those that have many years of experience with this :D thanks
 

Mordy

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#2
all meat is predominantly protein, regardless which animal it originates from - that's just its inherent nutritional makeup.

many people think that fresh meat "contains too much protein", but what they don't see is that it also comes with a natural moisture content, so the protein in fresh meat is actually more diluted than for example in dry dog food.

fresh meat ranges in moisture content from about 65 to 80% while your average kibble only has 10-12%. in practical feeding this means that fresh meat or canned food are actually the healthier choice.
 
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Whitedobelover

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#3
the reason I am asking is that while my dobermans were on rawfood. they got crystals in their urine... but.. we changed them to holistic and bottled water and now it is gone. could it be because of the meat.?
 

Mordy

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#4
stones/crystals can occur due to a variety of things, and there are different types as well. it could have been something as simple as an urinary tract infection. some dogs also have a high urinary ph with some struvite crystals present without any apparent problems.

without knowing all the details, it's hard to tell.
 
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Whitedobelover

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#5
well the vet said that he was 150% sure it was to much protien in their diets at this point of their lives... and we hadnt had any problems till i started the raw diet... and then they were gone with meds after we stopped the raw diet.. so I am pretty sure that to much protien cou have caused it but... not 100% sure.. though their stomachs werent digestiing the meat anyway it was sitting there in their stomachs for days.. and they got a bacterial infection from that... they did poop for like three days then started pooping and it was full of blood... so we are thinking the beef may have had something in it..

what do you think
 

doberkim

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#6
its actually very unlikely that the dogs were that sick from specifically beef - the food should not have been sitting in their stomachs that long, and if they were defecating during that time, they were not in a situation of "GI stasis".

Elevated protein and high meat diets, tends to make dogs urine more acidic, as a carnivores should be. What type of crystals did your vet say the dogs had in their urine?

If your dog had puppy vaginitis and a concurrent UTI, i would not jump to blame the foods. Most healthy animals can handle a wide variety of protein, and a high protein diet should not result in protein spilled over into the urine because that is not where the protein in the urine comes from (it comes from damage to the kidneys themselves).

Dietary protein is actually most relevant on blood urea nitrogen, and even then, animals fed nothing but meat do not have that much of a difference from kibble fed dogs.

What could be more of a factor is the mineral content of foods - depending on what type of crystals your vet found, calcium, magnesium and phosphorus can be implicated in crystalluria. However, most *balanced* diets don't really have this issue unless the dog is otherwise ill or predisposed.

That being said, if you fed an improperly balanced raw diet I do not doubt that they could form crystals - however, due to the short time you fed the diet , I am not sure it would have been long enough for that to happen. You may never know why you had this happen (was it both dogs or just one?), but you may want to find out what types of crystals the vet saw and monitor that dog in the future for any signs of problems (bloody urine, straining to urinate, etc)
 
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Whitedobelover

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#7
actually i did call the vet back and he is running test now to see if the protien in his urine was still high.. and no it isnt... the ph has balanced out since we have taken him off raw... He is 100% sure it was putting the kid on raw tomuch protien for them to take in this young he said... plus the stupid digestive system was out of wack anyway... finally after two days of goats milk and two weeks of metronidazole we are doing much better almost completely hard... it is amazing what goats milk will do... but I dont hold it to food i do kinda still think it may have to do with the ph balance in the water in Washington around this area... because i also have chronic cystitis.. and i can control it if i drink the proper fluids.. no pop sugar, coffee... etc... and that is why i only drink filtered water... because i also get crystal formation in the urine... so we thinking it was water because our breeder said she that her breeder sent a doberman up here and the dog had the same problems at this age.. but once they were on bottled distilled water it was okay... not sure why but what do you think MORDY!!!
 

Mordy

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#8
it could definitely be the water causing issues, especially if it doesn't taste good and the dog doesn't drink enough.

one of my cats had UTI troubles that went away since i stopped giving tap water and give everyone bottled mountain spring water. distilled water has all minerals removed, so that may also be affecting your dog.

i don't believe in the claim that the raw food caused it, for the above reasons - one pound of raw, 80% lean hamburger for example contains around 2.75 ounces of protein while one pound of a dog food with a moderate protein content of for example 23% contains a minimum of 3.7 ounces (protein percentages in the GA are listed as minimums but the average or "as fed" content is rarely ever shown).

of a raw diet you'd feed an adult dog 2-3% of it's body weight per day, which comes to about 1-1.5 pounds for a 50 lb dog. sticking with our lean ground beef example, that's roughly 1,200-1,800 kcal.

a good quality kibble with moderate protein and fat has an average of around 1,500-1,600 kcal per pound. a percentage of that protein comes from grains and puts more stress on the dog's system than meat protein since it has to work much harder to utilize it, plus the dog has to compensate for the difference in moisture content by drinking lots of water - and not all dogs drink enough.

so you see that the argument of "raw meat has too much protein" isn't really valid. it is, however, what a dog would naturally eat. :)
 
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Whitedobelover

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#9
see that is what i am saying he said that again and now i was like no way... so i thought it must be water now... so we are putting them since you told me about distilled pure bottled spring water. probably mountain or one of teh others we have up here somewhere in WA... but I really know they drink lots of water... it just seems that when they are drinking pure tap they have crystals and when they are drinking bottled they disolve and/or dont come back
 

doberkim

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#10
Whitedobelover said:
actually i did call the vet back and he is running test now to see if the protien in his urine was still high.. and no it isnt... the ph has balanced out since we have taken him off raw... He is 100% sure it was putting the kid on raw tomuch protien for them to take in this young he said... plus the stupid digestive system was out of wack anyway... finally after two days of goats milk and two weeks of metronidazole we are doing much better almost completely hard... it is amazing what goats milk will do... but I dont hold it to food i do kinda still think it may have to do with the ph balance in the water in Washington around this area... because i also have chronic cystitis.. and i can control it if i drink the proper fluids.. no pop sugar, coffee... etc... and that is why i only drink filtered water... because i also get crystal formation in the urine... so we thinking it was water because our breeder said she that her breeder sent a doberman up here and the dog had the same problems at this age.. but once they were on bottled distilled water it was okay... not sure why but what do you think MORDY!!!
im a little concerned at the vet at this point - why didn't he run a full urinalysis to begin with? when was the urine sample he just tested again obtained (urine significantly changes AND can form crystals if you dont test it immediately, if it is stored improperly, and if it is refrigerated!!!!)?

There are a lot of things that can throw a dogs digestive system out of whack - including changing diet a lot (and admittedly your pups have had a lot of change, and maybe they are more sensitive than most, going from SD to raw and now to merricks).

So was the protein in the urine high before? That really points me to a UTI or some sort of KIDNEY/BLADDER infection and really nothing to do with diet directly (except for minerals, like i said before) -- any protein in the urine is a sign of kidney damage (in most cases, there are some other instances when its ok).

if you have had the same problem from drinking the water, it is very likely that its similar to the dogs - in that case, i would also have your water tested to see what is going on with it!
 

Lexus

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#11
Another thing, you complained of them having crystals in their urine way before you ever started Raw with them. So that points the finger even more in another direction.
 
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Whitedobelover

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#12
No i didnt... i didnt complain at all... i simple sia dthey had crystals and it was before you are right then they got crystals again being on distilled water while eating stinking raw. food... Jessie do not try to start and arguement with me here...
 
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Whitedobelover

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#13
he did run the full urinalysis... and that is why i was like crap it can be the raw... no way c ould be water... they havent had hardly any change they went from science diet yucky to raw to merrick...

yes protien was abnormally high and we are going to invite someone out this week to have them test it because we refuse to drink our water now... also... i have chronic cystitis and i cant take that chance... so yes bill is going to invite someone out to see if the levels are off.

it just seems unlikely for those people i have talked to that have gotten dogs and brought them the northwest from the south have about 65% had crystal problems... i was doing a bit of research last night while looking up vaginal discharge and it was astonishing that these dogs were having so many problems and another thing could it be that the salt water is causing some sort of problem if it is getting into the fresh water supply... im not sure but there are many avenues we are researchin they are clear of crystals now... they drink bottled as I said and eat Merrick Puppy Plate... and their digestive system is just now getting over the whole problem with bacteria..... so it has been a huge mess the past two weeks in my house

then Prince just walks in a just pees where he sees fit doesnt care does look nothing... so i am oging to have him tested again to make sure next week even though we tested them two weeks back..

thank kim for the advice... ill see what comes of it... i know i worry about potty training because of this.... but we will see they are doing alittle better each week so hopefully soon no more potty in the house...

doberkim said:
im a little concerned at the vet at this point - why didn't he run a full urinalysis to begin with? when was the urine sample he just tested again obtained (urine significantly changes AND can form crystals if you dont test it immediately, if it is stored improperly, and if it is refrigerated!!!!)?

There are a lot of things that can throw a dogs digestive system out of whack - including changing diet a lot (and admittedly your pups have had a lot of change, and maybe they are more sensitive than most, going from SD to raw and now to merricks).

So was the protein in the urine high before? That really points me to a UTI or some sort of KIDNEY/BLADDER infection and really nothing to do with diet directly (except for minerals, like i said before) -- any protein in the urine is a sign of kidney damage (in most cases, there are some other instances when its ok).

if you have had the same problem from drinking the water, it is very likely that its similar to the dogs - in that case, i would also have your water tested to see what is going on with it!
 
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Whitedobelover

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#15
heck no... she wanted me to come back... but ummm no she was a quack... so i changed vets...
 

doberkim

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#16
Whitedobelover said:
No i didnt... i didnt complain at all... i simple sia dthey had crystals and it was before you are right then they got crystals again being on distilled water while eating stinking raw. food... Jessie do not try to start and arguement with me here...
i dont think shes trying to start a fight --

but you posted on another board on 8/30 that your dogs had crystals in their urine
"as you all know i have two dobes. my female wasnt diagnosed with vaginitis but the vet did a smear and said she thought that is what it was anyway....

well my male has the same greenish discharge on top of which they both had crystals in their urine... not sure what it is from"


and then you posted 5-6 days later that you fed your first raw meal.

sometimes time frames can be confusing, i often have to sit down and figure out what happens where because time passes so quickly.
 

doberkim

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#17
definitely check again for a UTI - its probably one of the most common problems in housebreaking and incontinence in ANY age animal -- and one that we can sometimes blame the dog for when its nothing they can control.

have your dogs been on antibiotics for the UTI?
 

Mordy

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#18
whitedobelover, i do not think anyone was "trying to start an argument" with you. lexus simply made a statement. i do understand you guys have had your differences on another forum, but this isn't the place to continue them.

if you have personal disagreements, please leave them off the public forum and take it to private messages.

thankyou.
 

Lexus

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#19
Whitedobelover said:
No i didnt... i didnt complain at all... i simple sia dthey had crystals and it was before you are right then they got crystals again being on distilled water while eating stinking raw. food... Jessie do not try to start and arguement with me here...

How is pointing out a fact starting an arguement? There's no need to get upset Elizabeth, you just had said before that they had crystals, long before the raw diet, and I just pointed that out.
 
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Whitedobelover

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#20
no i am not saying she was i am just saying i dont want an arguement...

kim yes they were on clavamox at first.. then amoxitabs and some other meds recently... for infection... I am thinking that could be part of it... but.. I do also think that water has a bit to do with it... i am really wondering if it is also my problem because since i only drink filtered or bottled i havent had any problems so I am thinking just from my bodily experience that that is how it goes...

No mordy... i am not saying anything i just dont like arguements... i can start enough at home without having them here hun... thanks though mordy.. anyway

I will be doing another UTI test. I am like upset about this thing... my poor guys... im gonna go nuts...
 

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