Lab declared "not vicious" despite attacking a 3-yr-old

[Bahamutt99]

Sorry, but if it was one of my dogs in this particular scenario, they would be no more. Dogs can control and inhibit their bite. There is no reason that a loose dog who could move away at any time would have to cause stitches to a child's face. If he'd never been socialized with kids, he never should've been allowed around a kid like that. That was the owner's stupid mistake, but I certainly would not call the dog sound for doing it. The comparison to BSL is ironic, because I honestly feel that peoples' inability to make these kinds of hard choices are one of the reasons we have BSL. I love my dogs intensely, but safety has to come first. How many dogs don't administer facial bites to children just because nobody was watching that particular second and there may or may not have been some dirt thrown?

My strong feelings are rooted in the experience I had of witnessing two of my dogs attacking a child when I was 18 years old. From the dogs' standpoint, it was totally provoked. In their minds, they'd warned that kid plenty to stay away, and she launched an attack by screaming and running up in our garage. But no matter how much I justified it at the time, no matter that most of the damage to her was caused by her falling when she turned to run away, it shouldn't have happened. Not ever. We failed as dog owners by allowing it to happen. And I will never keep an inappropriately human-aggressive dog again. I wish others could bring themselves to make that same choice voluntarily.

 

[Lilavati]

The thing I find disturbing about this is that the child was in her own yard, and the dog was loose. Regardless of the provocation, the dog was free to run. Now, if the facts were (or are) diffferent, I might change my mind on this. For example if its true she poked the dog in the eye (and say was hanging onto his collar) then perhaps that would be different. 17 stiches could be just a snap that connected . . . the scar on my face from a Dal was 8 stiches and was a snap that connected . . .if he'd hit a different part of my face it would have been more. However, assuming the facts are as presented (and that we don't know) I'd be very worried about a dog, out of its own territory and free to leave, who bit a child too small to cause it any real harm.

But with those facts, I would not trust that dog again, and consider it a walking lawsuit. Now, if I lived out in the middle of nowhere, again, that might change things.

 

[Dekka]

I found another story that say the neighbour and the mom WERE there but still didn't see it happen.

 

[Lilavati]

I found another story that say the neighbour and the mom WERE there but still didn't see it happen.

Hrm. Of course, the plot thickens.

 

[corgipower]

VERY true. AND for all those saying that the dog should have removed itself. ITS A DOG!!! So it had a lapse of judgment... its a DOG. I know some of my dogs if felt a threat wouldn't walk away.. its just not in their nature (ok so this was a lab and not a terrier-but still its a DOG)

Why are you expecting a dog to make a more rational decision that many people make? How many times have you told someone (or had someone told you) to just walk away.......?

Yes it may be a crazy psycho dog.. it may just be an under-socialized dog. Strict rules and rehab could make this dog as safe as any other out there.

Very true!!

So what does constitute as provocation? Kicking dirt? Screaming? Poking an eye? Pulling a tail? When is it excusable that a dog bites? A dog being a dog. With that said, in the article, it was stated that there was no evidence the child provoked the dog. So do we give the dog the benefit of the doubt?

Yes, poor socialization can make a dog dangerous, and that might be the case here. But what if the dog had killed that child? Would he still be able to be ruled safe with training and rehabilitation? Why not?

Personally I wouldn't trust any dog after they nearly bit a childs face off. Even with training. Thats just me.

Yes we give the dog the benefit of the doubt. We don't give the same to the dog's owner, and we require confinement, muzzling and training. 17 stitches isn't anywhere close to killing or even to biting the face off.

I can understand a snap or a nip, but if a dog's reaction is to attempt to bite off a child's face, that dog is not right. Its especially scary that the dog is ONE AND A HALF YEARS OLD.

<snip>

This is not a dog that had years of being good with children under its belt. This is a young dog here.

Yes, the dog is young. The dog is young enough to be easily trained/retrained.

 

[Bahamutt99]

I interpreted the writing in that article to mean both women were in the front yard with the kid and the dog (as well as the mom's dog). They didn't see the attack, which I take to mean they were probably talking nearby and not directly staring at their charges. Maybe they heard the kid crying and by the time they turned the dog had already done his thing. I don't take that as a condemnation of parenting. You can't watch anything 100% of the time.

"...neighbor's off-leash dog that attacked their daughter, Charity, as she played in their front yard..."
"Charity's mother, Lisa Knehans, was in the front yard talking to McDaniel when the attack happened..."

I have to say, though, this one bothers me the most:

"There was a lack of evidence that my daughter didn't provoke the dog."

How the smeg do you prove a negative? Shouldn't it be the dog owner's responsibility to prove that there was provocation? Shouldn't it be enough that: "Nothing in the report indicated that Watson [the neighbor witness] saw the girl taunting or provoking the dog."

 

[Bahamutt99]

Grrrrrrr. I'm getting heated, so I need to walk away from this one. But I have to say one last thing. Two of mine are the same age as the dog in the story. They don't have years of experience behaving with children, and they both still try to jump on them. But general rudeness is hardly the same as a chomped face. By a year and a half, a dog should have enough world experience to be reliable with people. I will never understand the need to rehabilitate/retrain a manbiter. Maybe its the difference in breed perception and philosophy. A credo of APBT people is "Manbiters must die." Perhaps thats why the APBT people in this thread appear to feel so adamantly that this is not a dog that should be given a second chance to hurt somebody.

 

[corgipower]

By a year and a half, a dog should have enough world experience to be reliable with people.

Nyx is a year and a half and she is not even close to reliable. She still tries to take my face off on a regular basis. I take a lot of extra measures to make sure she's contained and she does get muzzled in public. At 8 years old, Ares would bite if he was sufficiently provoked. It's my job to make sure he doesn't get into such a situation.

 

[Renee750il]

Maybe its the difference in breed perception and philosophy. A credo of APBT people is "Manbiters must die." Perhaps thats why the APBT people in this thread appear to feel so adamantly that this is not a dog that should be given a second chance to hurt somebody.

I think you've hit it right there, Baha.

I've got BOTH kinds now, the little APBT who cannot - for the sake of the breed as a whole - be allowed to exhibit any active defensiveness, let alone aggression, toward a human, which is completely unfair to expect under provocation when you think about it, and the Fila, born and bred to be distrustful and defensive.

I've also had more than my share of intervening between dogs - not just mine - and kids and even adults who were either untaught, dangerously stupid or just plain rotten.

And then you throw the clueless owner and the ditzy parent into the mix . . .

That's why, for me, it's always going to be a case-by-case scenario. Some people - and yes, kids - are just begging to be bitten and it's unreal to hold dogs to a higher standard of self-control than we hold ourselves to, but we do, and by and large, the dogs measure up far better than we do.

 

[dr2little]

Grrrrrrr. I'm getting heated, so I need to walk away from this one. But I have to say one last thing. Two of mine are the same age as the dog in the story. They don't have years of experience behaving with children, and they both still try to jump on them. But general rudeness is hardly the same as a chomped face. By a year and a half, a dog should have enough world experience to be reliable with people. I will never understand the need to rehabilitate/retrain a manbiter. Maybe its the difference in breed perception and philosophy. A credo of APBT people is "Manbiters must die." Perhaps thats why the APBT people in this thread appear to feel so adamantly that this is not a dog that should be given a second chance to hurt somebody.

With all due respect, you'd change your mind if you followed me around for a few months and saw the individual circumstances that occur. If everyone felt the way that you've expressed, many dogs who did not deserve to die and would have gone on to live safe and happy lives...would no longer be here.

I AM NOT someone who feels 'Oh, poor doggie" when I enter a bite case but believe me, it's not nearly as cut and dried as some seem to feel.

In your quote a few posts back, the "their yard" and other facts still do not confirm if it meant the neighbors yard, between the two yards, or what actually occured. If the facts showed an unprovoked bite or a circumstance that proved that the bite warrented a euthanasia then that's different, but the facts are vague enough that a 'vicious dog' ruling would be unjust.....for all dogs....especially those on "the list".

I don't know of one city where the first bite, especially without a witness or history, results in killing the dog. Again, 17 stitches does not necessarily mean "vicious attack". I was bitten in the cheek (top jaw) and inside the mouth (bottom jaw) and it resulted in 14 stitches when I was a child. It was entirely my fault and you'd be hard pressed to see the scar. The dog went on to live another 10+ years without incident...

 

[Dekka]

I have had JRTs come in to foster that have caused stitches and were 'unprovoked' Now they all bit adults but that could be coincidence.

They are all now living happy safe lives with new homes. So its the fact the victim was a child?

My point is MAYBE the dog is unbalanced and should be PTS. But why NOT give it a health check and see if there is something wrong? (like a pencil up the nose I might bite someone too if they shoved a pencil up my nose) Why NOT have the dog evaluated to see if it IS a threat? Why is most peoples knee jerk reaction to KILL the DOG?

IMO we come down so harshly on people who throw pets away. But just PTSing the dog and getting a new one from the shelter is no different. Now if the dog ISN'T safe and/or the people can't live with muzzling and training then yes PTS. But I don't think the first thought should be toss the dog away and get a new one.

And yes I have a child. I do know of kids that have been attacked (as seen in my posts one that I knew well was bit much worse than this child.. and one that I knew indirectly was killed) I am not ignorant of the risks a dog poses. NEITHER of these dogs had bite histories, or were even 'iffy' with children. The one that killed the child was the kind children could fall on, pull tail etc etc and the dog gave every appearance of loving it. In the paper it was reported as an 'unprovoked attack' How could a child provoke a dog like that? When the autopsy came back and a pencil stub was found in the nose... do you think that made the paper? Nope.

I am just as heated as some others I, as a dog lover, would like some evidence that the dog is at a risk of doing it again. The child seemed to be playing between 2 dogs. How do we know the dog went for her? If the owner of the dog and the mom where out there it must have happened pretty fast. If the dog had wanted to do more than a bite and release.. it had the opportunity. If it wanted to rip the child's face off or kill the child.. it had the opportunity. But it didn't. This dog showed self control. Does that make it a risk? It would be different if it had to be pried of the child. Or even called off. BUT the fact the dog bit then backed off showed self control and restraint. More than many people it seems.

Most of the dogs I meet that have put holes in people its due to lack of bite inhibition. They have been trained 'no bite'. So maybe its an easy fix?

If not and the dog IS a danger then I am ALL FOR KILLING THE DOG. But ANY dog can and will bite in the 'right' circumstances. I am a bit surprised by the idea that 'my dog would never....' ANY dog can-unless it has no teeth.

 

[Squishy22]

I had to leave this thread for a few days to cool my jets a bit.

I know a lot are saying that 17 stitches isnt all that bad or it could happen with one little snap. Well, my mom almost died after being bitten in the stomach ONCE from a GSD... she was 4.

Putting a dog to sleep is serious, yes, but a dog who bites a little child is serious as well. Serious things need to be done to preventing a dog with a bite history from striking out again and possibly killing someone.

I dont know why people are assuming the mother was irresponsible and unfit because she did not see the bite as it happened. She was talking to someone. Bites can happen FAST.

If it were my dog who went into someone elses yard and bit a 3 year olds face, provoced or not, he would be PTS. Whether I owned a pittie, lab, golden, GSD, poodle, or what have you. Yes, I could give the dog the benefit of the doubt and not the child. Go through whatever training, but the only way of completely eliminating the chance from my dog hurting another person/child again would to have him PTS. I dont take chances. Training is never 100%

Yes, we can let the dog in this case live and assume the owners will get the dog training and have it muzzled at all times, but are we really going to trust someone to take those steps when they were letting the dog run loose in the first place? I sure in the hell wouldn't. If I lived in their neighborhood and had children, I'd move.

 

[Bahamutt99]

Serious things need to be done to preventing a dog with a bite history from striking out again and possibly killing someone.

Or breeding and creating more unstable little manbiters that need extensive retraining.

If it were my dog who went into someone elses yard and bit a 3 year olds face, provoced or not, he would be PTS.

Werd.

 

[Dekka]

I had to leave this thread for a few days to cool my jets a bit.

I know a lot are saying that 17 stitches isnt all that bad or it could happen with one little snap. Well, my mom almost died after being bitten in the stomach ONCE from a GSD... she was 4.

Putting a dog to sleep is serious, yes, but a dog who bites a little child is serious as well. Serious things need to be done to preventing a dog with a bite history from striking out again and possibly killing someone.

I dont know why people are assuming the mother was irresponsible and unfit because she did not see the bite as it happened. She was talking to someone. Bites can happen FAST.

If it were my dog who went into someone elses yard and bit a 3 year olds face, provoced or not, he would be PTS. Whether I owned a pittie, lab, golden, GSD, poodle, or what have you. Yes, I could give the dog the benefit of the doubt and not the child. Go through whatever training, but the only way of completely eliminating the chance from my dog hurting another person/child again would to have him PTS. I dont take chances. Training is never 100%

Yes, we can let the dog in this case live and assume the owners will get the dog training and have it muzzled at all times, but are we really going to trust someone to take those steps when they were letting the dog run loose in the first place? I sure in the hell wouldn't. If I lived in their neighborhood and had children, I'd move.

If you read more articles the owner and the mom were chatting away and it sounds like the two dogs were playing. The dog was over visiting with the neigbour. The story changes so often though its hard to tell (dang media)

ANY dog can bite a child. So if you want to be 100% safe keep all dogs and children separate. Actually if you want to prevent dog bites start banning dogs.. oh wait the AR people are working on that.

Hmm guess we will have to agree to disagree. I don't think just because a dog bites once its 'dangerous'. BUT that could because I have direct experience with dogs who HAVE bit and were rehabbed and are now living happily. Not just one dog mind you but 5 that I have rehabbed myself. One was a dog that bit a child and so the owners brought the dog in to the vet to be PTS. The vets asked if JRT rescue would take it if they would surrender... The dog was very abused by the woman of the house-had been trained that 'warning' was bad and since he was so fearful he felt he needed to protect himself.

Long story short the dog has been living happily with no bites, issues or fear now for 2 years and counting with a new family.

ANY dog can bite. No one witnessed this bite. I guess I think animals should be innocent untill proven guilty as well. (say how do they know it wasn't the other dog.. since no one saw the bite happen?)

 

[dr2little]

If you read more articles the owner and the mom were chatting away and it sounds like the two dogs were playing. The dog was over visiting with the neigbour. The story changes so often though its hard to tell (dang media)

ANY dog can bite a child. So if you want to be 100% safe keep all dogs and children separate. Actually if you want to prevent dog bites start banning dogs.. oh wait the AR people are working on that.

Hmm guess we will have to agree to disagree. I don't think just because a dog bites once its 'dangerous'. BUT that could because I have direct experience with dogs who HAVE bit and were rehabbed and are now living happily. Not just one dog mind you but 5 that I have rehabbed myself. One was a dog that bit a child and so the owners brought the dog in to the vet to be PTS. The vets asked if JRT rescue would take it if they would surrender... The dog was very abused by the woman of the house-had been trained that 'warning' was bad and since he was so fearful he felt he needed to protect himself.

Long story short the dog has been living happily with no bites, issues or fear now for 2 years and counting with a new family.

ANY dog can bite. No one witnessed this bite. I guess I think animals should be innocent untill proven guilty as well. (say how do they know it wasn't the other dog.. since no one saw the bite happen?)

I agree. Killing a dog on so many assumptions and very few facts would make this a pretty horrible word for all dogs.

I am in no way saying that I think that a dog biting a child is minor (I noticed something to that effect a few posts back), but I work bite cases and see way too much for this case, as it's been presented, to be cut and dried.

 

[Dekka]

I got thinking. Lets say Dekka bit Darien with no visible provocation.....

First thing I would do would be to get a full medical done. If she had a serious condition that was fixable then that would solve that.

My first response (well after tending to my child) would NOT be to kill my dog. So for those of you who would PTS your very own dog if it bit a child, would you not check out medical reasons first?

And would you PTS your dog if it bit an adult? If not then are you sure that your dog knows the moral difference between a child and an adult?

 

[xpaeanx]

If one of my dogs bit someone, and it was a serious bite(I'm not talking something that didn't leave a mark/only left a very small mark like a scrap or something). Then, yes the first thing I would have done is a FULL med inspection. I think(and since I'm not in this situation, I don't know for sure) I would have to put my dog down. There are two reasons here. The first one being that, I wouldn't want her to hurt someone else, and god forbid it's a small child! The second being a liablity issue. While you are often forgiven for your first bite, the second isn't so easy to get out of. maybe that is a little selfish, but I don't know what I would do if I got hit with a huge lawsuit. But I would have to think long and hard about what happend before I made that choice.

Being that I never want to be put in that position, I try to get breeds that aren't known for any agression, I STRESS socialization, and also try to feel the dog out(all of my dogs are rescues).

Keeda will let children pull/poke/prod her and she's fine. She will give me an "I hate you" look and sometimes a "please save me!" while they're doing it, but she still has her tail wagging and ears in a friendly position. Bailey just walks away from small kids or anything loud. He does like kids around the age of 10 though... I guess they oogle over him and give him lots of scratches, so he's all over that.

 

[Dekka]

Not sure if you read this whole thread...

BUT I knew a child who was killed by dog who sounded just like your Keeda. The dog never flinched and would lick children who pulled ears and wag tail when poked etc etc..

No there were extenuating circumstances, but you can never say never...

 

[xpaeanx]

Not sure if you read this whole thread...

BUT I knew a child who was killed by dog who sounded just like your Keeda. The dog never flinched and would lick children who pulled ears and wag tail when poked etc etc..

No there were extenuating circumstances, but you can never say never...

I never said keeda wouldn't bite someone... I just said that I try my hardest to ensure that it doesn't happen. If she did bite someone, yes I would be extremely shocked, but I realize you never know what an animal will do. In which case, I would do what I said above.

 

[Sweet72947]

I got thinking. Lets say Dekka bit Darien with no visible provocation.....

First thing I would do would be to get a full medical done. If she had a serious condition that was fixable then that would solve that.

My first response (well after tending to my child) would NOT be to kill my dog. So for those of you who would PTS your very own dog if it bit a child, would you not check out medical reasons first?

And would you PTS your dog if it bit an adult? If not then are you sure that your dog knows the moral difference between a child and an adult?

Given that my dog already has a history of being untrustworthy with strangers, if we (me, parents or sister) f*ked up and she HURT someone, I would take her to the vet for that last visit, as it would be clear that we could not manage her properly and that she was a danger, and I wouldn't be able to live with myself if it happened again.

This case though, I think I may have jumped the gun a bit in previous posts. I agree we don't really know enough to say, over the internet, that this dog should die. But I do hope the owners realize the seriousness and manage their dog appropriately.

As for small terriers, correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't seem to be the most tolerant dogs anyway. Benji, if you hurt him, WILL snap and/or bite you, no question. Daisy will give other signals first (whining, trying to get away, licking) but Benji is not a tolerant dog (he does try warning you briefly with a lip twitch or a growl), and it seems to be that way with a lot of terriers I've met. They may be able to tolerate a lot from quarry, but from humans they don't take sh1t.

ETA: I just thought of something. Terriers may not seem tolerant because when quarry attacked, they were bred to bite back! So when humans "attack" they also bite back.