K9 European Protection Program

[Mordy]

Schutzhund is nothing more then a sport.

actually, it is supposed to be mnore than a sport - it's a test that was originally developed to determine the best breeding stock for german shepherds.

but like many other fields, it opened up to other breeds as well.

personally i know quite a number of folks (in germany) who participate in schutzhund with rottweilers, dobes and giant schnauzers and all of them do quite well.

as for the american bred vs. german bred (i won't say european here, since most of my experience is based on germany), yes, there are often huge differences. here in the US many breeders like to produce animals that are larger and heavier instead of aiming for a good average size as per standard, and breeding for rarer colors also seems to be more common.

 

[yuckaduck]

I know here in Canada when I started researching breeding gsd's everyone on the forums told me to get into a sport like schutzhund. I went to the two main importers here in Canada and they told me please do not waste your time and energy with a sport. THey do not care if the dog can go chase a human chew toy or if a dog can follow footstpes. THe tracking part of schutzhund is a joke because if that dog was applied to real life tracking you could only hope for a very slow crook. I was seriously thinking of getting into the sport; I thought it would be a great way to test a dog to see if it had the drive and the work ability that I am looking for before breeding. But alas that is not the case, they want working lines and retired policing dogs to boot. If there is any show lines at all they are not interested, no matter how much drive they show. So for me I will not be wasting my time and money on sports things because that is not what I will be breeding for.

 

[sheps4me]

actually, it is supposed to be mnore than a sport - it's a test that was originally developed to determine the best breeding stock for german shepherds.

but like many other fields, it opened up to other breeds as well.

personally i know quite a number of folks (in germany) who participate in schutzhund with rottweilers, dobes and giant schnauzers and all of them do quite well.

Yes, Schutzhund is a sport but a very demanding one and still serves as a very good test of breeding stock, particularly if the breeder trains their own dogs. It's a very rigorous, demanding and time-consuming sport and is designed to reveal each dog's character and working ability.
Mordy - Rotties and Dobes do Schutzhund in Canada too - and Malinois are also very popular in the sport.

 

[sheps4me]

I know here in Canada when I started researching breeding gsd's everyone on the forums told me to get into a sport like schutzhund. I went to the two main importers here in Canada and they told me please do not waste your time and energy with a sport. THey do not care if the dog can go chase a human chew toy or if a dog can follow footstpes..

Human chew toy? LOL I've never heard that term before. The dogs are supposed to chase and grip the sleeve .. no chewing allowed I wonder how these "importers" test the temperament of the dogs they're selling?

THe tracking part of schutzhund is a joke because if that dog was applied to real life tracking you could only hope for a very slow crook...

If you've ever seen a Schutzhund dog fly down a track, you'd realize that their tracking ability is no joke. It's not uncommon for them to achieve titles in both Schutzhund and CKC-style tracking. They're proven trackers!

I was seriously thinking of getting into the sport; I thought it would be a great way to test a dog to see if it had the drive and the work ability that I am looking for before breeding. But alas that is not the case, they want working lines and retired policing dogs to boot. If there is any show lines at all they are not interested, no matter how much drive they show. So for me I will not be wasting my time and money on sports things because that is not what I will be breeding for.

You might want to spend some time at a Schutzhund club or attend a few trials. Not only will you see different breeds, but there are both working and show lines titling in the sport. Rather than being a waste of time and money, the sport tests your own training abilities and your dog's nerve and character. It's incredibly demanding but the rewards are many.

I have to wonder - what are you planning to breed for? The German shepherd is supposed to be a working dog - how will you test your breeding stock?

 

[yuckaduck]

what are you planning to breed for? The German shepherd is supposed to be a working dog - how will you test your breeding stock?

Exactly they are a working dog, my dogs will have the altimate test, they will be retired from what they are being breed for. If they can't do the job then they ain't for me. I got into an arguement on another forum about breeding HOPE. Well she will not be determined a breeding dog until she is tested temperment and health wise and then she will need to be trained and put in the field. If she cannot achieve that then she is a family pet and nothing more.

BTW I am not a trainer I have a hired trainer for that because my training ability is not good because I have no experience past sit, stay, down, heel, come. I can do the basics but then off to someone who knows what they are doing.

Oh forgot to mention-I do not pick my breeding dogs that is done by my trainer and by a breeder who I trust whole heartedly. I am not able to make those choices, not enough experience.

 

[sheps4me]

Exactly they are a working dog, my dogs will have the altimate test, they will be retired from what they are being breed for. If they can't do the job then they ain't for me. I got into an arguement on another forum about breeding HOPE. Well she will not be determined a breeding dog until she is tested temperment and health wise and then she will need to be trained and put in the field. If she cannot achieve that then she is a family pet and nothing more.

BTW I am not a trainer I have a hired trainer for that because my training ability is not good because I have no experience past sit, stay, down, heel, come. I can do the basics but then off to someone who knows what they are doing.

Oh forgot to mention-I do not pick my breeding dogs that is done by my trainer and by a breeder who I trust whole heartedly. I am not able to make those choices, not enough experience.

What do you consider the "ultimate test"?

If you don't consider yourself a trainer and you don't currently have the experience to choose and evaluate your own breeding stock, then are you planning to wait until you do gain that experience? How will you evaluate and test puppies - and place them in appropriate homes - if you can't test your own dogs?

Re: Hope. Isn't she a rescue? I wholeheartedly believe that rescued dogs make wonderful pets but they are NOT for breeding. You may be able to do health and temperament checks on her (I don't know what you mean by putting her in the "field"), but how will you know her background info? The health of her parents, grandparents, etc.? The health of any siblings? Any temperament issues in her background?

 

[yuckaduck]

What do you consider the "ultimate test"?

If you don't consider yourself a trainer and you don't currently have the experience to choose and evaluate your own breeding stock, then are you planning to wait until you do gain that experience? How will you evaluate and test puppies - and place them in appropriate homes - if you can't test your own dogs?

Re: Hope. Isn't she a rescue? I wholeheartedly believe that rescued dogs make wonderful pets but they are NOT for breeding. You may be able to do health and temperament checks on her (I don't know what you mean by putting her in the "field"), but how will you know her background info? The health of her parents, grandparents, etc.? The health of any siblings? Any temperament issues in her background?

You know what I have argued this point way to many times on another forum and am not getting into it here. Hope is registered and it is not that diffcult to track down the grandparents and the parents. Why would I evaluate the puppies, I pay someone to do that for me. I have no need to further my training when I pay someone to do it for me. Appropriate homes will be working homes only! The ulitmate test is actually getting out there and doing the work that I am breeding for. I want to see the dog do what I want to breed for. As far as HOPE goes, no clue if she is for breeding or not so not going to argue that point at all. She is 8 months old and so she is not an option before she is 2 years old anyway. That gives my trainer time to see if she has any kind of drive or even has the ability to do what we want. I am not willing to share much information about my breeding because I am breeding for a specific thing and I do not wish to share it with you. I do not need people emailing me and starting at me about my plans. It has been well researched and I have taken the time to consult two different breeders to make sure I am able to be responsible and create my own reputable reputation. My breeding program will not be public at all because it is for me and my hubby to decide what is right and what is not. I have argued and explained myself enough and come to the conclusion that the people that are involved in what I wish to do are the ones I will listen too whole heartedly. If they tell em a dog is not good breeding stock then I will follow that and that dog will be altered and re homed. Just like any responsible breeder would do!

BTW this is not directed at just you it is to everyone who wants to sayy how horrible I am because I will not be reading those threads I will just skip them. My breeding will be kept private as faras the details because it is no one else's business but mine and my family's.

 

[sheps4me]

You know what I have argued this point way to many times on another forum and am not getting into it here. Hope is registered and it is not that diffcult to track down the grandparents and the parents. Why would I evaluate the puppies, I pay someone to do that for me. I have no need to further my training when I pay someone to do it for me. Appropriate homes will be working homes only! The ulitmate test is actually getting out there and doing the work that I am breeding for. I want to see the dog do what I want to breed for. As far as HOPE goes, no clue if she is for breeding or not so not going to argue that point at all. She is 8 months old and so she is not an option before she is 2 years old anyway. That gives my trainer time to see if she has any kind of drive or even has the ability to do what we want. I am not willing to share much information about my breeding because I am breeding for a specific thing and I do not wish to share it with you. I do not need people emailing me and starting at me about my plans. It has been well researched and I have taken the time to consult two different breeders to make sure I am able to be responsible and create my own reputable reputation. My breeding program will not be public at all because it is for me and my hubby to decide what is right and what is not. I have argued and explained myself enough and come to the conclusion that the people that are involved in what I wish to do are the ones I will listen too whole heartedly. If they tell em a dog is not good breeding stock then I will follow that and that dog will be altered and re homed. Just like any responsible breeder would do!

BTW this is not directed at just you it is to everyone who wants to sayy how horrible I am because I will not be reading those threads I will just skip them. My breeding will be kept private as faras the details because it is no one else's business but mine and my family's.

I'm going to assume that the "specific thing" you're planning to breed for sometime in the future is dogs that have the ability to work in a K-9 program. Great - it's nice to have dreams and goals. But if you're not experienced in training working lines and you have no experience (and don't plan to acquire any) in breeding, whelping and temperament testing, then I have to wonder what your role is going to be as a "breeder". Good, responsible breeders know their breeding stock inside and out, and can subsequently evaluate their puppies based on the knowledge they've gained by working and raising their own dogs. That's what puppy buyers rely on - even when they're going to working homes.
If you say your puppies are going to enter a police program, then what will you do with the dogs that wash out of the program? Not all pups from each litter have what it takes to do the work. You're going to have a combination of pets and working dogs (if you're lucky) and even those pets may have more drive than the average home can handle.
It's fine to have a vision for the future but you have to look at the long term. And this is all assuming that one day you'll be looking for breeding stock that is registered and proven in working ability - not rescue dogs from unknown lineage.
Oh, and before you get all concerned about people asking questions and offering opinions about your proposed breeding program - do keep in mind that you're posting in a public forum for all to read. I imagine that there's more than one "rescue" person here who is alarmed at the direction you're planning to take in breeding.

 

[Gempress]

I have to agree with sheps4me on this one.

they will be retired from what they are being breed for

Yuck, if I remember right, police/working dogs in the states are retired at 10 years old. I think that's too old for breeding.

 

[yuckaduck]

looking for breeding stock that is registered and proven in working ability - not rescue dogs from unknown lineage.

Whatever gave you the idea that the only dogs I have for breeding are unregistered, unproven and rescue dogs. Non are unregistered, non will be bred until proven and the only rescue is HOPE and no discission is made on her so she is not even part of the equation, therefore non are rescue dogs. you know nothing of me at all and you know nothing of my dogs! That is why I am not willing to share every detail with you this is a public forum and I think business wise I am entitled to some privacy.

 

[Vega]

Ultimate Protection = Fila > Doberman, Shepherd, Rottweiler

 

[oriondw]

Ultimate Protection = Fila > Doberman, Shepherd, Rottweiler

Obviously.

 

[yuckaduck]

Yuck, if I remember right, police/working dogs in the states are retired at 10 years old. I think that's too old for breeding.

Way too old to breed with and I live in Canada. I have made arrangements with a few importers that I have been getting to know to get some retired dogs that are a bit younger. Got a really nice female here that is three years old. Retired due to injury that stops her from preforming up to snuff but has no effect on her breeding career. She is a great dog too! There is one here in Ontario that is 12 years old and still working on the street so of course that is not a dog for me.

 

[sheps4me]

Whatever gave you the idea that the only dogs I have for breeding are unregistered, unproven and rescue dogs. Non are unregistered, non will be bred until proven and the only rescue is HOPE and no discission is made on her so she is not even part of the equation, therefore non are rescue dogs. you know nothing of me at all and you know nothing of my dogs! That is why I am not willing to share every detail with you this is a public forum and I think business wise I am entitled to some privacy.

Here's what gave me the idea:

I got into an arguement on another forum about breeding HOPE. Well she will not be determined a breeding dog until she is tested temperment and health wise and then she will need to be trained and put in the field. If she cannot achieve that then she is a family pet and nothing more.

The fact that you are planning to test her health and temperament for potential breeding puts her into the equation. And yes, that is your business but you did put the information out there. People tend to be very passionate about their breed of choice and when we hear that someone is going to get into breeding, but doesn't plan to train and knows little about breeding and temperament testing, well, it tends to raise some concern. Since you take in rescue dogs, I'm sure you aware of the vast numbers of shepherds in shelters across North America. I would imagine that most of them started out as well-intentioned pups too!

 

[yuckaduck]

Back to the topic, I trust Alex fully in his train of thought for thinking about Dobes not as the best protection dogs if you look at some of the bad breeders. I think it is just because of what he trains that he feels this way, we all have our breed of choice and we all have our breed of unchoice.

Personally I think the dobes are a very beautiful dog, and I would never think twice about crossing them, would never happen they were intentionally bred to be protective and I believe they are able to fulfill that to a point.

 

[AmberwayGSD]

The Doberman Lines I Bred were Solar Kennel Lines and also Moonthunders.I didnt have a kennel name.I only Bred One Litter that produced 4 Puppies.One Female is in a Companion Home.One Male is in A Show and Breeding Home.One Male is in A Companion Home.The Pick of The litter I kept but than he went out as a Police Service Dog.Another Breeder bought my female after the First litter.

 

[yuckaduck]

The Doberman Lines I Bred were Solar Kennel Lines and also Moonthunders.I didnt have a kennel name.I only Bred One Litter that produced 4 Puppies.One Female is in a Companion Home.One Male is in A Show and Breeding Home.One Male is in A Companion Home.The Pick of The litter I kept but than he went out as a Police Service Dog.Another Breeder bought my female after the First litter.

Awesome dogs you had.

 

[AmberwayGSD]

My Bitch was out of Tornado from Solar Kennels.Very great breeder.I always recommend them.

 

[doberkim]

er --- without getting into it, shep4me i agree - even considering breeding a dog (even if it has a pedigree) that was a rescue -- wow, that just makes me lose respect for a person.

yuck - so what exactly IS the work you are breeding for - you repeatedly say they will have to do the work you breed for, but you have yet to indicate what actual work you are breeding them for. isnt breeding before you have trained, titled, and explored the breed further to its working potential a little "putting the cart before the horse" -- i would expect a breeder of true working dogs would understand and know how to work a dog first before they pump out a litter - its not an entry level position.


going further back - actually, i know someone that has many dogs from solar kennels, she has some awesome pups! however, not to argue points, but i think its funny yuck supports that dog, but solar dogs are purely show lines, arent they they have a litter right now out of sequoia, i think hes a VERY handsome dog and has a great head (i will admit, i am a head fanatic!)

the KNPV is the dutch police dog association - if you google it you can get some links, i am sure. its a very rigorous program and it takes a good dog to get through. im simply saying if you want a dog with the neverending drive and such of a mal (if youve never met a mal, its like taking a GSD and giving it methamphetamine in many ways ), then taking other dogs will never make you happy.

and again - i dont know why you would look at a bad breeder and use their dogs to prove that dobes cannot work. why use BAD breeders as an example? bad breeders are bad breeders for a REASON - for their failure to responsibly, ethically, produce dogs that better the breed.

 

[doberkim]

My Bitch was out of Tornado from Solar Kennels.Very great breeder.I always recommend them.

i just checked out tornado - shes an awesome looking girl!
do you have more pics of your dogs? what happened to your dobes? (sorry, new here!)

my guy is a rescue, but hopefully in the near future i have a pup coming my way ... this pup has a lot to live up to