Incident with my Lab today.

Mdawn

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#1
I debated mentioning this because we are so new to this forum and we aren't known very well. However, I thought that it may be an advantage as it would more objective opinions on the subject.

I work during the day. Most days through the week, my MIL (actually my boyfriend's mother) will let my dogs out mid day to play if she has time or just to use the bathroom if she doesn't. It helps a lot because otherwise my dogs would be crated for 8 hours a day and I don't like for them to hold it that long if I can help it.

Anyway, my Lab hurt his leg the other day. Here is the thread on that if anyone is interested:
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89814

He is doing better, and hardly has a limp anymore. Although, it is still a bit tender.

I wasn't here at the time this happened and this is just how it was related to me after I got off work.

She let my Mastiff, Uallis, out first. I told her to not let the dogs out together, like she normally does, because of Eddie's leg. They play with each other rough and Eddie, while he is better, is still on the mend. So she let Uallis out first. After he came back in, she let Eddie out. While he was out, she was just inside the kitchen, next to or close to the door, waiting for him to finish using the bathroom. She heard Eddie barking and went to investigate. When she went outside, she saw a UPS guy waving a clipboard in Eddie's face. Eddie had his ears flat, hackles raised, was growling and baring his teeth. She told the guy, "Stop waving that in his face!". The guy replied, "I'm not going to let him bite me!". She told me that the clipboard was aggravating Eddie even more and that is why she told him to stop waving it. She called Eddie to her and he readily came to her. The guy said something else, which regained Eddie's attention and he turned and started walking back to the guy, with the same behavior as before, bared teeth, ears flat, hackles raised and growling. The guy shoved the clipboard in Eddie's face again and started waving it. This time, instead of calling Eddie, she physically went and got him by the collar and he relaxed and calmly went with her into the house. That was the end of the situation. However, my MIL told me that the way Eddie was acting he was "this close" to biting the UPS guy. She said that she was certain that he would have if she hadn't intervened.

Now, Eddie is 2 years old. I've had him since he was 3 or 4 months. Yes, he was a handful as a pup but he has NEVER been aggressive with people...ever. He can be obnoxious...meaning that he tends to crowd people and occasionally it makes people uncomfortable. He can be standoffish when strange cars pull in the driveway, meaning that he'll bark at them from a distance until the person gets out of the car, then he will greet them, etc. We have had other delivery men come to the house with packages and he's never acted this way. Eddie is a very happy go-lucky dog. Before I would have sworn that he didn't have an aggressive bone in his body. The description I got today is a side of him that I've never seen before. Eddie is NOT aggressive...he LOVES people...a little too much most of the time.

We have discussed many theories of what could have happened for that minute that Eddie was outside w/o supervision. One was that he just took a dislike to the guy, for whatever reason. Another was that they guy did something to Eddie, like hit or kick him, before my MIL came outside. My boyfriend suggested that the guy could have bumped Eddie and with his hurt, although healing leg, it hurt him and he reacted this way. All of this is just speculation as we will never know what really happened in that short amount of time Eddie was alone with the UPS guy. However, in any of these scenarios I can't imagine that Eddie would actually bite someone. Although, I suppose every dog has their breaking point.

What worries me is that Eddie is not aggressive. When I was told about what happened, I was flabbergasted. That is NOT my dog. It isn't his personality. I admit that I started to panic because I could only think of two things if Eddie would have bitten the guy....lawsuit and that I could have had Eddie taken from me.

I'm a bit worried about how to handle this. My boyfriend suggested that he invite some friends (that aren't afraid of dogs and knowing the circumstances of course) of his that have never met Eddie over to our house to just see how Eddie reacts...to see if he acts this way again or maybe it was an isolated incident with just this particular UPS guy. I think that this is a good idea.

I've already decided to make a vet appointment for him. I plan on calling tomorrow from work to talk the situation over with them and discuss what medical issues could cause sudden aggression. He does have a hurt leg that I suppose could be hurting him worse that I know of. He doesn't hardly have a limp anymore but still I know it does bother him to some extent.

Personally, I think that Eddie showed restraint and showed that he didn't really want to bite the guy. He came readily when he was called...he backed off right away. When she had to go and get him, he relaxed and had no problem going into the house.

I'm worried about the whole thing. This isn't how Eddie is. We had company come over tonight as a matter of fact and Eddie was fine with them...however he knows them and they aren't strangers.

Sorry for the huge novel but I don't know what to think about the situation really. It's just unsettling to me.
 

jess2416

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#2
Maybe there was just something about the UPS man he didnt like??

Im sorry, I really have no clue, my Chloe is like that with certain delivery people and others she is fine with.. ?? (even within the same company)

hope someone else has some better information
 

darkchild16

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#3
If it was my dog, knowing that he is a stable dog, I would think ther was something wrong with the guy and from the description you give he was egging eddie on. In the case lke that i WANT my dog to alert and keep the guy back until I give the ok. The fact that he then went back after beiing called off would tell me something was wrong with this guy and the fact that he egged Eddie on after being told not to is a whole nother reason I would take it as a isolated instance.
 

Dekka

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#4
Its hard to say. He could have reacted to the 'aggressive' acting man. I had the sweetest flat coated retriever as a teenager. Barked when strangers came up to him, but with his tail wagging.

One day there was a man over talking to my dad in his shop. My dad said the man was a bit weird and made him feel uneasy. Jocko (my dog) was lying on the floor between them. The man made a swift move to pet the dog, and Jocko reached up and bit him on the face. I don't know if he felt my dad's unease. Thought that the swift movement was an attack on him or my dad.. I have no idea.

This dog never did that again (tho he did scare the meter man up onto the roof of his truck.. Jock thought he was pretty special that time.. My mom had to come out with my then 3 year old brother to hold Jock before the guy would come down. There was my3 year old mauling the dog and they guy nervously getting down from his truck LOL. Yes I know strange dogs are a danger.. but this dog was boowoowooing in such a happy way with an all over body wiggle...)

Dekka who is fantastic with people, does the meet and greets at the large venues and gets mauled my thousands of children has taken a dislike to a couple of people. Not to the extent of your lab.. BUT they weren't acting threateningly either.

IMO I wouldn't be too worried if it was a one off, you don't know what happened and the fellow was acting like a threat. If it happens again then maybe. But remember growling and piloerection don't necessarily mean a dog is going to bite.
 

darkchild16

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#5
And I have got to add now that I dont have a child crawling all over me.

That IF the guy kicked him or whatever and all he did was growl you have a SMART dog and a VERY well rounded dog. I know if a stranger kicked my dog on his property and I was alone inside or my mom was. The guy would be running from the yard with a Shepherd after him.
 

puppydog

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#7
Eddie is sore. He has recently been injured. He was alone with a woman (I have noticed males can tend on protective with women) and this idiot was waving a clipboard in his face on his property. He is darn lucky he didn't get bitten.
I think you should be pleased that Eddie reacted like he did. He called off well and there was no misplaced aggression. Good on him!
 

Maxy24

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#8
You have no idea what happened before you came out. It is possible that Eddie simply started by barking at the man, dogs bark, not necessarily out of aggression but to alert. It's possible the UPS man saw that as a threat, god only knows how many aggressive dogs they do meet. He could have then started right in at yelling at the dog, waving the clip board and being threatening.

Or there just may have been something about him. It is good that he came when called and did not react badly when being taken by the collar even though he was growling and such at the UPS guy. I do think having your boyfriends friends over is a good idea just to make sure he is still comfortable with people approaching the house.

I'm also confused as to how they were together, did the man come into your fenced in yard?
 

borzoimom

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#9
Eddie is sore. He has recently been injured. He was alone with a woman (I have noticed males can tend on protective with women) and this idiot was waving a clipboard in his face on his property. He is darn lucky he didn't get bitten.
I think you should be pleased that Eddie reacted like he did. He called off well and there was no misplaced aggression. Good on him!
I agree. And actually I would call UPS to let them know the man was baiting the dog with his clip board ie " another dog would have bitten the driver" type information. If the driver was afraid of the dog, he would have every reason not to deliver the package. That would have been a smarter option on his part. It seems like to me since he could have left and did not, he was baiting the dog.
 
A

Angel Chicken

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#10
Kona hates UPS men, so much so, we had to call UPS and get them to have a friend of ours that works at UPS, and also knows Kona, start delivering our packages.

I like what puppydog said. He's hurt, which can make anyone agitated. The UPS man just egged it on.

I would have bit him. :D
 
R

RedyreRottweilers

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#11
I agree. And actually I would call UPS to let them know the man was baiting the dog with his clip board ie " another dog would have bitten the driver" type information. If the driver was afraid of the dog, he would have every reason not to deliver the package. That would have been a smarter option on his part. It seems like to me since he could have left and did not, he was baiting the dog.

Drivers who deliver packages should simply not have to deal with being confronted by dogs. PERIOD. This person had no idea what this dog might do. I do not think he was trying to bait the dog with his clipboard. He was trying to keep the dog from advancing on him with the only tool at hand. Perhaps not a wise move, but not baiting the dog IMO.

I would not be calling UPS up and blaming the delivery person for being confronted by a loose dog.

What I WOULD do is make sure that my dog is confined in a manner so that people can approach your home safely without being confronted by your dog.

I do not see this an any issue with the delivery person. I see it as a confinement issue on the part of the dog owner.

Hope your boy's leg is feeling better very soon. In future, please make sure he is not ever outdoors in a manner so that he can accost people who approach your residence.

Good fences are your friend.

:D
 
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#12
A mastiff is a guard dog and he did his job but the UPS reaction is normal!.With such a dog,I would have a fence in yard cos next time,he could bite as he's protecting his territory,MIL included!.It is pretty normal to see an EM start guarding at 2 and not before as they stay pups for such a long time!.
My golden who is 1/2 the size started guarding when she turned 3!.
Up to then,i didn't even know she could bark!.
 

Dekka

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#13
A mastiff is a guard dog and he did his job but the UPS reaction is normal!.With such a dog,I would have a fence in yard cos next time,he could bite as he's protecting his territory,MIL included!.It is pretty normal to see an EM start guarding at 2 and not before as they stay pups for such a long time!.
My golden who is 1/2 the size started guarding when she turned 3!.
Up to then,i didn't even know she could bark!.
The dog is not a mastiff, he is a lab!
 
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#15
Drivers who deliver packages should simply not have to deal with being confronted by dogs. PERIOD. This person had no idea what this dog might do. I do not think he was trying to bait the dog with his clipboard. He was trying to keep the dog from advancing on him with the only tool at hand. Perhaps not a wise move, but not baiting the dog IMO.

I would not be calling UPS up and blaming the delivery person for being confronted by a loose dog.

What I WOULD do is make sure that my dog is confined in a manner so that people can approach your home safely without being confronted by your dog.

I do not see this an any issue with the delivery person. I see it as a confinement issue on the part of the dog owner.

Hope your boy's leg is feeling better very soon. In future, please make sure he is not ever outdoors in a manner so that he can accost people who approach your residence.

Good fences are your friend.

:D
well put. I agree completely.
 

noludoru

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#16
I fully agree with Red on keeping dogs confined so people can make safe deliveries - I'm honestly not still clear on what happened there. Was he loose ouside? On a tie out? In a fenced in yard? In the house, and the delivery man came in?

I also agree that anything could have happened, and the fact that he didn't bite the guy and came when called the first time makes me think it was fear-based. . . but I deifnitely could be wrong. I would have bitten someone waving a clipboard in my face, if I were a dog.
 

borzoimom

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#17
well put. I agree completely.
While a fence would obviously solve the problem, the point is this as far as the UPS driver. The driver has the right when delivering a package if a loose dog that is showing any signs of aggression to NOT deliver the package. The HR the policy is to not entice the animal but rather just leave the property. By swinging his clipboard at the dog while still trying to come on the problem that is exactly what he was doing- enticing or baiting the animal. This is frowned on and in violation of the HR policies for proper delivery. Hince the reaason I said the driver should be reported so if nothing else, the driver is educated on the proper procedure.
 
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#18
While a fence would obviously solve the problem, the point is this as far as the UPS driver. The driver has the right when delivering a package if a loose dog that is showing any signs of aggression to NOT deliver the package. The HR the policy is to not entice the animal but rather just leave the property. By swinging his clipboard at the dog while still trying to come on the problem that is exactly what he was doing- enticing or baiting the animal. This is frowned on and in violation of the HR policies for proper delivery. Hince the reaason I said the driver should be reported so if nothing else, the driver is educated on the proper procedure.
That'd be a great rule of thumb, if all dogs sat out in the wide open and made themselves perfectly visible.

What happens though when the UPS guy gets out of his truck and is already in a wide open space, vulnerable, when the dog comes running?

"Just leave the property" kind of becomes difficult when you've already left your truck, are in the middle of the yard, and faced with a dog that feels the need to defend their property.

Who knows whether he was enticing or baiting the dog? We weren't there and neither was the OP. Perhaps he was, or maybe he was just trying to distract the dog hoping he wouldn't get bitten. Not all folks are dog savvy.

I would agree to the OP that the dog thought he was doing his job, and was in all likelihood aggravated by the swinging clipboard and erratic movements of the UPS driver. I also agree with Red that a fence would be a great precaution so that in the future, Eddie doesn't get this chance again.
 

borzoimom

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#19
That'd be a great rule of thumb, if all dogs sat out in the wide open and made themselves perfectly visible.

What happens though when the UPS guy gets out of his truck and is already in a wide open space, vulnerable, when the dog comes running?

"Just leave the property" kind of becomes difficult when you've already left your truck, are in the middle of the yard, and faced with a dog that feels the need to defend their property.

Who knows whether he was enticing or baiting the dog? We weren't there and neither was the OP. Perhaps he was, or maybe he was just trying to distract the dog hoping he wouldn't get bitten. Not all folks are dog savvy.

I would agree to the OP that the dog thought he was doing his job, and was in all likelihood aggravated by the swinging clipboard and erratic movements of the UPS driver. I also agree with Red that a fence would be a great precaution so that in the future, Eddie doesn't get this chance again.
Mdawn said she was told the UPS man kept coming. He had every right to just back in his truck. And they are not to wave a clip board or signature board- they carry deterant sprays. ( in the event he felt really threatened.) Mdawn knows what she is doing- she knows her dogs, and obviously just trying to find out what to do in the future here.
It doesn't matter if the driver is 'dog savvy' or not. There are policies in place in a code of conduct on proper procedures.
 
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#20
I wasn't here at the time this happened and this is just how it was related to me after I got off work.

She let my Mastiff, Uallis, out first. I told her to not let the dogs out together, like she normally does, because of Eddie's leg. They play with each other rough and Eddie, while he is better, is still on the mend. So she let Uallis out first. After he came back in, she let Eddie out. While he was out, she was just inside the kitchen, next to or close to the door, waiting for him to finish using the bathroom. She heard Eddie barking and went to investigate. When she went outside, she saw a UPS guy waving a clipboard in Eddie's face. Eddie had his ears flat, hackles raised, was growling and baring his teeth. She told the guy, "Stop waving that in his face!". The guy replied, "I'm not going to let him bite me!". She told me that the clipboard was aggravating Eddie even more and that is why she told him to stop waving it. She called Eddie to her and he readily came to her. The guy said something else, which regained Eddie's attention and he turned and started walking back to the guy, with the same behavior as before, bared teeth, ears flat, hackles raised and growling. The guy shoved the clipboard in Eddie's face again and started waving it. This time, instead of calling Eddie, she physically went and got him by the collar and he relaxed and calmly went with her into the house. That was the end of the situation. However, my MIL told me that the way Eddie was acting he was "this close" to biting the UPS guy. She said that she was certain that he would have if she hadn't intervened.

All of this is just speculation as we will never know what really happened in that short amount of time Eddie was alone with the UPS guy.
Mdawn said she was told the UPS man kept coming. He had every right to just back in his truck. And they are not to wave a clip board or signature board- they carry deterant sprays. ( in the event he felt really threatened.) Mdawn knows what she is doing- she knows her dogs, and obviously just trying to find out what to do in the future here.
It doesn't matter if the driver is 'dog savvy' or not. There are policies in place in a code of conduct on proper procedures.
Are we reading the same thread because I see speculation and that the UPS guy was already in the yard when the MIL heard Eddie barking. Clearly, that to me means that the guy was already in the yard and Eddie was already menacing him. He was waving the clipboard to distract the dog because he didn't want to get bitten. He was obviously not dog savvy, as any dog savvy person would know this would likely AGITATE the dog further.

And where did I say Mdawn *didn't* know her dogs? She wasn't here when this happened....so regardless of how well she knows her dogs, no one knows what exactly happened, as was stated in the initial post.

A fence is a great suggestion. I hardly think calling and having the UPS guy disciplined over a situation that not all details are known over is a bit much though...Especially since we don't know if the UPS driver KNEW Eddie was there before he started walking towards the house or not.

Oh, and FYI, my good friend is a UPS driver. He doesn't carry deterrent spray - it's not required and to my knowledge, not provided by the company though I could certainly ask him and find out their protocals.
 

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