How young is too young to spay & neuter?

[sillysally]

Both of my dogs were kept intact a bit longer than "normal", so maybe that is why they haven't had real issues with weight gain. Gusto is still a bundle of bones and muscle without an ounce of fat. Meg was in hard condition for a lot of years. She's not quite as fit now, and is maybe a pound heavier, but she's also nearly 8 and a bit less active than she used to be. I've known obese intact dogs, lean neutered dogs, and everything in between. I definitely think they burn more calories when intact, and of course male hormones in particular promote more muscle mass. I wouldn't use it as a sole reason to keep a dog intact (not that anyone here said that), because I know I can manage their weight/fitness other ways as well.

I agree that intact dogs get a lot of bad behavior blamed on their status, but I get equally frustrated by those who claim it has *zero* affect on behavior. Of course hormones affect behavior. I can give you a visual demonstration every four weeks or so . Or you are welcome to come visit Tristan, who is currently on anabolic steroids - basically male hormones. My delightful, sweet "I'd give a 6 year old this lead rope and know they are safe" horse now gets a shank for handling, has to go only in a certain paddock, and I can safely lead him to the hay meadow for grazing maybe 2 times out of 5. The other times I have a horse putting his front feet in my face.

Particularly with late neuters, some dogs may already have learned behaviors that aren't going to go away without work. And some dogs may just be jerks regardless of hormone status.

This.

 

[Miakoda]

This has been my experience as well. Early neutered animals look weedier to me than dogs neutered late. I'm speaking of both males and females when I say neutered there. Guess altered would be better, but yeah. Huge difference in the boys. If you're not shy lol you can see the boys "junk" looks just like a puppies. Which is very weird to me.

Girls do tend to hide early altering better.

Testosterone is needed for the growth plates to close. When you remove that source, it takes longer for the plates to close, this resulting in leggier (weedier) dogs. They are also less physically developed because of the drastic testosterone decrease.

With that said, shelters have to do what shelters have to do. People cannot be trusted, and they've shown it time and time again. ALL dogs and cats (& rabbits) should be spayed/neutered before being adopted out. It may not be in the animal's best interest, but neither is adopting it out to be turned into a backyard breeding machine.

Female cats are incessantly horny creatures. The going into heat every three weeks or so........ARGH!!!!!!!!!!! And after dealing with my cousins ' and fridnds' intact male cats spraying all over my things while visiting, welwould not ever want to look at a tomcat again. I would NEVER own an intact cat. Ever. (Then again, I would never own a cat, period.)

As for personal dogs, I think it's up to each owner to make the best educated decision for he/she and his/her pet.

My next dog will be a male even though I would prefer a female. However, I don't want to spay, but I don't want the hassle of cleaning up after and diapering an in-heat female. I've also had first-hand experience with Pyo and mammary-gland cancer, so I'd rather get a male and avoid that decision altogether.

 

[sillysally]

In my experience the worst intact animals are intact male goats. So. Nasty. We had one at the barn who would pee on himself, would jump onto the hay bales specifically to pee in them, and hump the mares' legs O.O When we eventually have goats I will haul the girls somewhere to be bred thankyouverymuch.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

My intact dogs are more of a weight struggle, keeping weight on, than my altered dogs, keeping weight off.

Also though I relish in feeding less because I have 4 dogs.

 

[Linds]

My parents dogs Hannah was spayed at 6 and lost muscle mass but kept a nice figure overall. She never got or gets any exercise

Kaylee spayed at under 6 months had never been able to not be fat. Fed a raw diet meant for a 20 lb dog, biked, ran and walked she still was overweight.

Traveler its no issue keeping him at a nice weight though he does get fed more.

Genetics sure come into play but altering or not sure either stacked those deck of cards for or against the dogs

 

[Emily]

Genetics sure come into play but altering or not sure either stacked those deck of cards for or against the dogs

Yeah... I mean, you and I both know what we dealt with the Macky and Kaylee. Sometimes, the dogs could have really used that hormonal edge, whether or not it's PC to say so.

 

[sassafras]

I think it depends entirely on the context.

Shelters gotta do what they gotta do. As others have mentioned, they're dealing with herd health and John and Jane Q Public. Until our societal views towards responsible pet ownership change significantly, they need to take charge of the sterilization whatever age that may be.

Otherwise, individuals just need to weigh the risks and benefits for themselves. Unfortunately, some (many) of the risks and benefits are anecdotal at this stage on all "sides". There is very little hard data right now that isn't junky science IMO. I'd like to see some truly well designed studies to try to help thoughtful decision making.

My own personal/anecdotal experience is that the vast majority of dogs do not have major problems throughout their lifetimes with the typically recommended 6-7 month old age. Personally I don't care to have intact animals but prefer to let males mature a little more... anytime after 12 months. I haven't had a female dog that didn't come to me spayed or with a time limit/requirement for spaying, but in the future if it comes up I will probably wait until after one heat and then spay anytime before the second.

 

[sillysally]

See, I would much rather deal with a female dog who is spayed yet an "easy keeper" and takes more effort to keep at a healthy weight than deal with everything that comes with having an intact female dog.

 

[sassafras]

See, I would much rather deal with a female dog who is spayed yet an "easy keeper" and takes more effort to keep at a healthy weight than deal with everything that comes with having an intact female dog.

Yea for a variety of reasons I don't have much interest in having intact dogs, especially females.

 

[Red.Apricot]

Elsie was spayed at a year, and she did lose a lot of muscle mass... because she took a while to recover, and moped for almost three weeks.

She's in better shape now than she's ever been.

Zobby was neutered at 6 months, and I sometimes wonder if he'd be shaped differently if they'd waited. Since he's always been a door-darting runaway (although it's mostly completely fixed now) it would have been irresponsible to leave him intact.

 

[BostonBanker]

Yeah... I mean, you and I both know what we dealt with the Macky and Kaylee. Sometimes, the dogs could have really used that hormonal edge, whether or not it's PC to say so.

I don't think it is un-PC at all. And it may very well be what would make a difference for them. But it is also a bit of a guess that it *would* make a significant difference. Not that I'd actually suggest experimenting on your dogs, but I wonder if you put a spayed female on hormone therapy if you could replicate the natural hormones well enough to see?

I admit, I like my easy keeper dogs. But I lose sleep on a regular basis over my really hard keeper gelded horse, so that may be a "grass is greener" thing for me!

This all makes me want to go around quizzing people I know with great looking, fit dogs about when they were neutered! My thoughts and opinions on it have changed pretty dramatically over the last 6 or 7 years, and I'm still learning more.

 

[sillysally]

My mare was an easy keeper until she got into her 20's. Then it seemed like I was constantly having to stay on top of things to keep her from loosing too much, and if she did it was a total uphill battle to get it back to where it should be-truly some of the most stressful times as a horse owner. I'd take an animal that is hard to keep weight off of over an animal that struggles to keep it on any day.

 

[BostonBanker]

My mare was an easy keeper until she got into her 20's. Then it seemed like I was constantly having to stay on top of things to keep her from loosing too much, and if she did it was a total uphill battle to get it back to where it should be-truly some of the most stressful times as a horse owner

Ugh. It is the worst feeling in the world to watch something you care about slowly starve. Up until early July, I was planning to put Tristan down before winter. He just couldn't rebound after the winter this year, and was probably 200 - 250 lbs underweight. Low and behold, my vet pulled a random idea out of nowhere, and it seems to be working. I'd like another 100 lbs on him before the cold starts to set in, but at least I no longer get dirty looks when I lead him around without a sheet on.

 

[sillysally]

Ugh. It is the worst feeling in the world to watch something you care about slowly starve. Up until early July, I was planning to put Tristan down before winter. He just couldn't rebound after the winter this year, and was probably 200 - 250 lbs underweight. Low and behold, my vet pulled a random idea out of nowhere, and it seems to be working. I'd like another 100 lbs on him before the cold starts to set in, but at least I no longer get dirty looks when I lead him around without a sheet on.

Man, I hope that the treatment continues to work.

Winter is the worst. Sheena had to be blanketed if it was below 32 degrees or she would start dropping weight, and this was a horse that in her youth never wore a blanket unless it was below zero. Fighting with weight gain supplements (most of which Miss Picky wouldn't touch), different feeds, hay, etc, etc. Frustration.

I hope Tristan turns the corner this times!

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I'd take an animal that is hard to keep weight off of over an animal that struggles to keep it on any day.

Totally.
As most know this:

Became this:

With a raw diet and exercise, even with a bad leg. A lot of this was probably genetics, I think they worked hard to make her as fat as she was. She is way too high drive and energy at 14 for her to ever have been a boring couch dog as a pup without working hard. Now, she's been bred and I wonder if she gained weight after a spay. I also wonder though how many people just let their dogs go after a spay and assume it's just the spay and there is nothing to be done.

Arnold, altered before I adopted him at 5 months, was once this:

But college came, his genetically damning structure took a toll and he's leaned way out.

The same has happened with Shamoo, age and inactivity (older dogs are naturally less active) deteriorates muscle.

I have truly cried over my inability to not only keep up appearances with my malinois but also afford to keep them full before so I too join the grass is greener camp on this subject.

I may be hypocritical in that I have no intension of altering my two but I fully support the alteration of pets owned by most people. I have in the past and most likely always will alter rescues and rehomes.

 

[Laurelin]

It was miserable trying to keep weight on Trey in his last years. Thank god he was so hairy or we'd have been accused of starving him constantly.

I think in a lot of cases (like Beau) the owners just don't adjust the feed post altering. I got him down to a normal weight pretty fast after I started working with him and measuring out his food.

 

[SpringerLover]

I may be hypocritical in that I have no intension of altering my two but I fully support the alteration of pets owned by most people. I have in the past and most likely always will alter rescues and rehomes.

But Lemur wants to care less about Sloan in heat!

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

But Lemur wants to care less about Sloan in heat!

Ugh, that is very true. Thanks for the reminder, honestly when she's not in heat I forget but every time she is in heat (and it gets worse) I convince myself he's getting neutered. We'd decided to ride out for another year now but thinking of how genuinely miserable the poor boy was I keep rethinking, again and again.

 

[*blackrose]

Whenever I get my male Lab dog (so, in the next decade or two), I would like to wait until the age to two before he's neutered, if at all. I'd likely just keep him intact as long as there were no behavioral problems associated with him being whole. (Aka, Cooper and his indoor marking. We neutered him and he's stopped.)

Seabees will be being spayed on Tuesday. I personally would have had no problem waiting until right before her second heat (so, around two). But Mike doesn't want to mess with a bitch in heat, so we're getting her done asap. She's around nine months.

 

[Aleron]

Honestly though, the last thing I'm thinking of when deciding at what age to neuter is what size my dog's penis will end up being....

Except if it ends up being a problem with stones. If you have a Dal, that is a really big deal actually but I imagine it'd be an issue with any stone forming dog. And girls being underdeveloped there are prone to chronic vaginitis. I have known quite a few early spayed girls who needed surgery on their vulva because it was under developed and causing them some very real issues.

I'd like to see more options like vasectomies open to dog owners, but I think they would generally be a bad idea in rescues. Most people can barely train dogs as it is. Yes, absolutely, one can train around hormones. People prove it all the time. But the average person is going to have the dog mark in the house, and return it for "not being able to be housebroken", or have their dog getting distracted by scents and taking off or just ignoring them, and get frustrated and decide to return them. It may be a sad fact that most people can't/won't work around those issues, but it does remain a fact. People here are not the average owner, for the most part.

When I was a kid we were average pet owners with intact males and never had marking issues, dogs trying to escape to find girls, aggression or any such thing. The biggest issue we had was when I tried to bring home an adult intact male to be our new dog. My mom's Irish Setter and him got into a bad brawl and it did not help my case for keeping My 4H dog, that I trained starting when I was 11 was an intact male Dobe mix and he was not the only adult intact male in club.

Housetraining issues with newly adopted rescues is not exactly unheard of, nor is being distracted by new environments, "not listening", etc. If people are going to return a dog at the slightest hint of a problem, altering isn't going to make much difference.

Altering isn't something that I look at as an "as needed" basis, not a "must do be X age" thing. Jagger was neutered this spring because he had a testicular tumor. He's fine but I really, really struggled with having to have him neutered. And now he has developed flea allergies and is a bit stressy during storms. He is a 10 year old dog who never had either issue, so I have a hard time believing they aren't relate to the lack of hormones. Luckily he's still interested in girls and still manly towards other male Belgians. I'd have been really sad if he started looking at rival males and was like "eh".

Hopefully Savvy will be able to keep his balls forever.

Girls I struggle with what to do too. I do worry about pyo but also worry about the issues associated with spaying. I spayed one of my GSDs at about 4 years old because there was slight chance her epileptic half brother could have bred her. She was no worse for wear after the spaying, never had any weight issues or personality changes and lived a very long, very healthy life. The coat change with altered hairy Belgians bothers me too, not just because of looks but because they lose a lot of their wash-and-wear-ness.

So for me, spaying girls is something I'll determine on a dog to dog basis. Neutering males is a last resort though and will only done because it actually has to be done (to me, boys acting like boys isn't a problem requiring neutering - I like boy dogs ).

Ugh, that is very true. Thanks for the reminder, honestly when she's not in heat I forget but every time she is in heat (and it gets worse) I convince myself he's getting neutered. We'd decided to ride out for another year now but thinking of how genuinely miserable the poor boy was I keep rethinking, again and again.

FWIW Ziggy who was neutered at 8 months, wants the girls in season as much as the intact boys. Paces, whines, pants, obsesses and will attempt to breed them given a chance. The Belgian breeds tend to be rather..."over-sexed" so to speak. Very easy breeders, boys don't give up easily, girls are hussies and boys are all boy. So neutering isn't necessarily going to make him care less about living with a bitch in season. Ziggy doesn't notice girls in season out and about usually but living with them, yeah not much difference in his interest level from an intact male.