Homer's situation got me thinking

[daaqa]

dogs vs men? i would take my husband over any dog any day - over any human, for that matter. he is my world!

i am against animal cruelty and the ridiculous amount of breeding that takes place, etc, etc. but my humans come first. any animal posing a clear threat to the wellbeing of my family cannot stay.

back to the original question, i think people are more cautious to give up on a bad dog than a bad boyfriend partially because the consequences of giving up on a dog are so much higher. the dog will end up in a shelter or PTS, while the boyfriend just goes back to the bar to find his next woman. and like others said, sometimes the dog doesn't know better, but the boyfriend should.

another thought: i once read how much money is spent per year on pet stuff in north america vs how much it would take to feed starving people around the world. made me rather embarassed. and i am not even out buying diamond studded leashes.

 

[ToscasMom]

Not married long eh?

j/k

 

[Boemy]

I understand what you mean, Sam. Some people have mental problems where they CAN'T judge right from wrong. My old roommate worked for the city's mental health place. One guy tried to poison him with eyedrops in his coffee because he thought he (my roommate) was the devil. No, the guy genuinely did not know what he was doing was wrong . . . He had a mental illness and thought my roommate was Satan. Shouldn't that guy get as much effort put into helping him as a dog with a mental problem? It's not the guy's fault any more than it's the dog's fault.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Interesting topic, sam! Here are my thoughts.

There's a huge difference between the way we judge the actions of dogs and the actions of humans.

Dogs simply do what works for them. There isn't a lot of fore-thought to their actions. They don't know right from wrong - they may know that biting results in getting the human to back off, or that if there's garbage on the floor when the human comes through the front door the human will then yell and throw things. The conscious thought of how their behaviors created the reactions by the humans is not there.

Abusive humans, on the other hand, usually have a considerable amount of fore-thought to their actions. They, too, do what works but they also know morally that what they are doing is wrong (most do, anyhow). They manipulate situations not only through physical actions but through emotional blackmail or fear (i.e. if you tell anyone I'll hurt your family, etc.). An abusive boyfriend/girlfriend also counts on the strength of the attraction/attachment to help keep the other from leaving them or telling on them.

Dogs are relatively simplistic creatures compared to humans, thank doG.

I think that a dog that has shown severe aggression and has been properly assessed by someone qualified as to why they are acting aggressive may very well need to be put down instead of rehabilitated. But many CAN be rehabilitated and it's hard to be the one to say "kill this dog". Taking on a dog with aggression problems (regardless of the reason) is a huge responsibility and is difficult even for those with a large amount of experience. The first time a dog bites me or attempts to bite me they're put on "restriction" and I make sure not to put myself in a position where I'm going to get bit again. If the dog is with me, then I control the resources, the freedom and give it a couple of weeks to see if behavioral changes are evident. If the dog is a client's, I set them up to do the same and I emphasize SAFETY first.

When it comes to an abusive human, you can't control resources and work on behavioral changes like you can with a dog. If it were a first/second/third date I would hope that the person being abused would immediately report it to the authorities and they can deal with it. With a dog acting aggressive, you go to a behaviorist and you see what you can do to change the behavior.

I guess I just have a hard time equating the abusive human to the aggressive dog. There are just too many differences between the situations.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
... taking no responsibility for any rambling in this post .. I'm only half awake .. *L*

 

[doberkim]

I guess my biggest thing with the dog in question is that Homer isn't just biting. Homer is full out attacking - he has tried to attack no less than three times for NO good reason. The only safe way to handle this dog is if he lives in a muzzle because he has not been predictable, he has not WARNED when he will bite, and once he has bitten and broken skin, he will not stop. When simply touching the collar or using a leash and pulling on a collar sets this dog off, how do you direct him (especially in a multi-dog home) - the only option is literally warehousing him - he lives in a crate, and he lives in a muzzle. Is that fair?

I am all for working with biting dogs. I have lived with, trained, and yes, even titled (Bowie gave me immense joy, my first titles, and a huge lawsuit!!!) a dog with a bite history. I have lived with sr dogs with bites behind them.

But a dog that isn't predictable, a dog that has no warning, a dog that has no "off switch" - this is a dog that is a huge time bomb waiting to happen. What if he wasn't a 37 lb little mix? What if this was an 80 lb rottie that elegy could NOT fend off? The fact remains is that night in question he went after her twice, and then tried to attack the vet the next day.

I am a vet - I deal with dogs that want to bite me,c ats that want to bite me, all day long. These dogs warn, they try to bite once, and they retreat. I've only met one dog that continued to try to attack, and this dog severely bit one of my coworkers - a 12 year old, 100 lb malamute. That's the only dog in 9 years of working in this field, that ever tried that (except Bowie, the dog I adopted)

Homer isn't stable. Two behaviorists, one vet, and one trainer have said euthanize this dog. I don't know what else we need - the next time he goes after elegy it may cause a lot more damage.

 

[dr2little]

I guess my biggest thing with the dog in question is that Homer isn't just biting. Homer is full out attacking - he has tried to attack no less than three times for NO good reason. The only safe way to handle this dog is if he lives in a muzzle because he has not been predictable, he has not WARNED when he will bite, and once he has bitten and broken skin, he will not stop. When simply touching the collar or using a leash and pulling on a collar sets this dog off, how do you direct him (especially in a multi-dog home) - the only option is literally warehousing him - he lives in a crate, and he lives in a muzzle. Is that fair?

I am all for working with biting dogs. I have lived with, trained, and yes, even titled (Bowie gave me immense joy, my first titles, and a huge lawsuit!!!) a dog with a bite history. I have lived with sr dogs with bites behind them.

But a dog that isn't predictable, a dog that has no warning, a dog that has no "off switch" - this is a dog that is a huge time bomb waiting to happen. What if he wasn't a 37 lb little mix? What if this was an 80 lb rottie that elegy could NOT fend off? The fact remains is that night in question he went after her twice, and then tried to attack the vet the next day.

I am a vet - I deal with dogs that want to bite me,c ats that want to bite me, all day long. These dogs warn, they try to bite once, and they retreat. I've only met one dog that continued to try to attack, and this dog severely bit one of my coworkers - a 12 year old, 100 lb malamute. That's the only dog in 9 years of working in this field, that ever tried that (except Bowie, the dog I adopted)

Homer isn't stable. Two behaviorists, one vet, and one trainer have said euthanize this dog. I don't know what else we need - the next time he goes after elegy it may cause a lot more damage.

If you'll read the posts from the start, you'll see that this thread was not really about Homer (after the second post) specifically so that our answers had less impact on Elegy's feelings and no baring on what we thought she should do.
I stand behind Elegy, as does everyone else no matter what she decides to do about Homers situation. I don't think anyone here was suggesting that any more is needed for elegy to make her decision. We all feel horrible for her.

 

[sam]

Yes I didn't mean to make another thread where we talk about Homer or Elegy specifically. I stand behind her 110% and I've made that clear in that thread and by PM. Her situation and people's reactions just got me thinking...

It just always shocks me that no matter how dangerous, nor matter how vcicious, no matter how unprovoked dog-human aggression may be there are people that will not see it as reasonable to euthanise the dog, yet if we talked about a human being aggressive towards another human you would say walk away, get away, don't have that person as your spouse/boyfriend /any sort of relationship that puts you at risk.

Interesting Dr2, that you point out that on the whole humans expect dogs to be little saints and MOST dogs wouldn't probably be given a second chance nor would most people be willing to invets in the right kind of care and treatment. I'm sure that's true. The average dog owner doesn't walk their dog more than once a week or ever take them for formal training either. I guess it's a dog board/ dog person phenomena I am remarking on. We are willing to make all sorts of excuses and rationalisations for a dog but not so with a human even though there are most certainly underlying causes for the behavior with both.

Melanie makes a good point that with humans, you can't control the situation the way you can with a dog. You can't confine a human in a crate and on a leash while you work with them. You certainly can't muzzle them and feed them all their rations by hand etc Although with humans you certainly can by talking/ counselling, have a much better or clearer understanding of what's going in in that person's head, what they are feeling and why they are behaving the way they are. With dogs it's best guesses by looking at the situations and the behavior.

Humans are ususally moral, do know right from wrong and can think on a higher cognitive level. HUmans can and are damaged though by early experiences of abuse and neglect, fetal alcohol and drug exposure and mental ideopathic mental illness.

Bottom line for me (and I'm not saying this is the "right" way to be) is that I don't want to share my life or family with anyone who will lash out at me and physically hurt me. I won't live in fear of being hurt or attacked wether it's by a dog or by a human member of my family. Will I work on behavior problems as they arise in my own dogs and in my own relationships? of course but if I brought a dog home from an SPCA and discovered it had a major problem with agression towards humans, I would return it to where I got it from or have it euthanised. *I* am personally not up to the task of trying to rehabilitate aggressive humans or aggressive dogs. I don't have the knowledge, the skill, the patience, the resources or the desire to take on a project of that magnitude and with the potential to hurt me. I do applaud people who do and I think because of them important work is being done.

 

[daaqa]

Not married long eh?

j/k

:lol-sign: i get that a lot! we have been married nearly 3 years. it's funny because when we were first married, everyone was like "just wait - the first year is the most difficult!" once we got through that with huge enjoyment, everyone said "oh, you just wait, year two is a killer for many marriages!" now everyone is warning us about year three: "it's the make-or-break year!" or "you just WAIT until you have kids!" hahaha. i figure this will probably be the way comments roll for us until we've hit our 25th anniversary or something!
i don't mind the jokes/comments at all. i figure we must be doing something right if people keep thinking we are too happy! and if we face each year expecting to do lots of work on our marriage [thanks to all the warnings], then we will be facing it with the right attitude!

 

[daaqa]

Bottom line for me (and I'm not saying this is the "right" way to be) is that I don't want to share my life or family with anyone who will lash out at me and physically hurt me. I won't live in fear of being hurt or attacked wether it's by a dog or by a human member of my family. Will I work on behavior problems as they arise in my own dogs and in my own relationships? of course but if I brought a dog home from an SPCA and discovered it had a major problem with agression towards humans, I would return it to where I got it from or have it euthanised. *I* am personally not up to the task of trying to rehabilitate aggressive humans or aggressive dogs. I don't have the knowledge, the skill, the patience, the resources or the desire to take on a project of that magnitude and with the potential to hurt me.

i totally agree. i've been hurt by and lived in fear of an animal and a human before, and won't allow it in my home again.

 

[ToscasMom]

i get that a lot! we have been married nearly 3 years.

Three years is newlywed. No wonder you aren't having trouble choosing between him and the dog.

 

[Saje]

I agree it's apples and oranges BUT if a man did hit a woman we would probably not rush him over to the docs to have him put down. Although... lol

We would probably encourage her to stay safe and away from him and encourage him to get help. Hell, he'd probably need to learn better communication skills and how to live in this world. Kinda like a dog. The difference is we are forcing a dog to live in our world by our rules and our language. And too many people don't give them the respect they deserve by showing them how to survive here.

I know this isn't about Elegy at all but I just want to be clear that she has our support.

 

[daaqa]

Three years is newlywed. No wonder you aren't having trouble choosing between him and the dog.

i know, i know. haha. but it's my goal to never let that change. i guess you could say i love a challenge! [i went through three parental divorces, so i have no illusions that marriage is easy. i'm just stubbornly determined to do something different than my family did!]

 

[Doberluv]

Dagga, that is just soooo cool. You have a really good attitude and good resolve. You know what might make a good discussion in firehydrant? You could make a thread where people can brainstorm about what makes a marraige or other relationship work...what your ideas are etc. Just an idea for a thread in case you feel like chatting about it. It might be fun.

 

[ToscasMom]

daaga, sounds to me like you could be one of those who makes it be what it was supposed to be..forever. Kudos!

 

[puppydog]

Men have morals, dogs don't. Simple. A dog needs to be taught by it's owners that that sort of behaviour is not acceptable, a man gets taught by his parents before he gets into a relationship.

Also, when my ex hit me, he was never in any danger of being put to sleep. He is now some other womans problem and I hope she is strong enough to walk away the first time, not like me who stayed and hoped he would change.

 

[daaqa]

thanks guys!

good idea, doberluv. i might just do that one of these days.

 

[ToscasMom]

Men have morals, dogs don't.

You have no idea how difficult it is for me not to take advantage of this opening...

 

[casablanca1]

about the different way we perceive aggression in dogs vs in humans.....Yet with dogs, even after a dog has viciouslyor inexcusably bitten over and over, drawn blood, torn clothing, caused injury there will be a percentage of people who will say you shouldn't give up on that dog.
Kind of interesting I think. Thoughts?

Oh, I've always thought that this soft spot for the 'misunderstood' dogs was amazing. To me, a dog who bites is first and foremost a violent personality. Not misunderstood or abused or inappropriately socialized. Because there are dogs, many of them, who go through hell and don't bite. While dogs are not the same as humans and can't be held to the same standard of responsibility, they are social, domesticated animals with intelligence and they can be held to some level of responsibility for their actions. So many dogs are utterly non-biters, and I would say the majority are timid biters--willing to give a human a hard time with barking and snapping and maybe snarling in particular situations, but 1) rarely actually biting and 2) never pressing an attack. The remainder, the dogs who will bite and attack and force an attack, are freaks.

As to why the soft spot for biting dogs? I think a lot of people, particularly women, get off on 'saving' violent animals. It manages to be both nurturing (rescue a dog) and heroic (rescue a dog nobody in their right mind would rescue) and my theory is that it plays into a weakness women have for being martyrs.

 

[Friskycatz]

Oh, I've always thought that this soft spot for the 'misunderstood' dogs was amazing. To me, a dog who bites is first and foremost a violent personality. Not misunderstood or abused or inappropriately socialized. Because there are dogs, many of them, who go through hell and don't bite. While dogs are not the same as humans and can't be held to the same standard of responsibility, they are social, domesticated animals with intelligence and they can be held to some level of responsibility for their actions. So many dogs are utterly non-biters, and I would say the majority are timid biters--willing to give a human a hard time with barking and snapping and maybe snarling in particular situations, but 1) rarely actually biting and 2) never pressing an attack. The remainder, the dogs who will bite and attack and force an attack, are freaks.

As to why the soft spot for biting dogs? I think a lot of people, particularly women, get off on 'saving' violent animals. It manages to be both nurturing (rescue a dog) and heroic (rescue a dog nobody in their right mind would rescue) and my theory is that it plays into a weakness women have for being martyrs.

:yikes: Thats all i'm gonna say.

 

[ravennr]

:yikes: Thats all i'm gonna say.

:yikes: Yep...