German Shepherd through the years

[Maliraptor]

Here's a video of Knox learning some pivot work. I had to add music because Ozzy was raising hell in the background, so you can turn it off if you want lol.

http://youtu.be/KaK5shVTYLU

Also, here's a short video of him working on a rag. We were screwing around in the front yard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_sn1MjQ9jY

Nice! He looks like he is fun to work.

 

[Maliraptor]

I just looked up that sire. Wow!

Yeah he is something, I like him. Tried at one point to get an Ufo son for my husband, but none could be found. Ended up with Mauno instead.

I however, had been cheating with the Malinois since 2003. :rofl1:

 

[Saeleofu]

Sael, is the dog's back in the third picture as roached as it looks, or is it just me?

It really is that roached. It's kind of painful to look at.

 

[Equinox]

Maliraptor, you need to get back to working and breeding German Shepherds so my problems can all be solved

I have no idea what her lines are, but she is a GSD. I can't remember her registered name or I'd look it up.

And you're SO right about inconsistency. Like I said, she won BOB that day, but one of the others won the day before, and they're completely different types. ALL the GSDs in the show all weekend were from around here (well, their handlers live here, not sure where the dogs actually came from), every single one of them was in my handling class.

Funny thing about the white German Shepherds registered as GSDs in the UKC, and the dogs registered as White Shepherds in the UKC, is that their ancestry is often shared even within the first 3 generations LOL You could have a pair of dogs that share the same grandsire (or even sire) but be registered as two different breeds under the UKC and shown/bred with a different standard in mind. Fun stuff!

No matter how many times I hear that I always think, "Look at its hips!" instead of "Look at that topline!"
And you're totally right- if I were in a show ring and looked at that setter next to a GSD with a horrible topline it's the GSD I would think looked much worse because of the stack.
Isn't the stack (please correct me if I'm wrong!) supposed to give the impression of a readiness to spring into action?

I made the same mistake before, and all the time, too! Eventually had it drilled into me so now I get to nag other people :lol-sign:

There are German Shepherds with very extreme rear angulation and weak ligamentation that are OFA Excellent, and I have known of people with dogs that have almost no rear but are dysplastic. Along the same train of thought, English Bulldogs and Labrador Retrievers and Maine Coon cats (yes, cats!) are all breeds where HD incidents are relatively higher, yet excessive rear is not an fad among these animals in the conformation ring.

Sael, is the dog's back in the third picture as roached as it looks, or is it just me?

Definitely not Sael, but I've often noticed that a dog's topline tends to appear more roached when the dog is in motion (especially if the dog is working hard at it), even IF the dog's topline is straight standing still. So the roach may be exaggerated simply because the dog is gaiting? Not sure, that's my own speculation!

That old school is built very similar to my Sibe/GSD mix in body. Except with less fur. Freaky!

Lily

I'll take a dog that looks like Lily any day, kthnx

 

[Maliraptor]

It really is that roached. It's kind of painful to look at.

I went back and looked, I agree. I would pick the white one over that, too!

 

[Saeleofu]

So the roach may be exaggerated simply because the dog is gaiting? Not sure, that's my own speculation!

It's not the movement. The movement might make it look a little bit worse, but in this case it's NOT just the movement. It looks pretty much the same when she's standing still, but I can't find a picture of her stacked or even just standing.

 

[Equinox]

It's not the movement. The movement might make it look a little bit worse, but in this case it's NOT just the movement. It looks pretty much the same when she's standing still, but I can't find a picture of her stacked or even just standing.

In that case... well, sh!t.

 

[Aleron]

Aleron - what do you think of the new changes to the UKC standard? I'm interested to see where this goes, have heard around on other forums and groups about ulterior motives (which I don't disagree with) in establishing these changes, but in this matter specifically I don't mind so much. Will depend on the judge's call as far as what is marked as extreme, of course, but looking forward to seeing if this brings any changes.

It's a sensitive time for sure and some are unhappy about changes being made without consulting the GSD community. However, on the GSD forum the feedback seems to be pretty positive. As on the UKc forum. I don't see anything wrong with the changes made to the standard, although I'm not entirely sure I agree with the "any measure of a roach back" being a serious fault. That seems to me that it will eliminate some otherwise nice dogs just because they have a bit of a roach-y topline.

Funny thing about the white German Shepherds registered as GSDs in the UKC, and the dogs registered as White Shepherds in the UKC, is that their ancestry is often shared even within the first 3 generations LOL You could have a pair of dogs that share the same grandsire (or even sire) but be registered as two different breeds under the UKC and shown/bred with a different standard in mind. Fun stuff!

Belgians in AKC are even better - you can have imported littermates registered, shown and bred as two different breeds

What bothers me about UKC and wGSD being shown as GSDs is the judges seem to ignore that noses not predominantly black is supposed to be a disqualification. I have seen many, many UKC CH wGSD who's noses don't appear to be predominantly black. So much that I have wondered if it is universally ignored for the wGSDs or if some are...ummmm....enhancing their pigment prior to the show. It seems uncommon IME for wGSDs to retain dark nose pigment.

Definitely not Sael, but I've often noticed that a dog's topline tends to appear more roached when the dog is in motion (especially if the dog is working hard at it), even IF the dog's topline is straight standing still. So the roach may be exaggerated simply because the dog is gaiting? Not sure, that's my own speculation!

The roach backed GSDs definitely look more so when being moved, especially if they are pulling.

ETA Looking at the pictures from the UKC show, I'm not sure which dog I would have went with. Not sure if the dog posted was the only wGSD at the show but there are 5 pictures of a wGSD moving and the dog is pacing in every one of them. Judges really can't (or shouldn't) put up a dog who paces excessively during judging, as there's no way to judge proper movement and pacing can also be a sign of structural issues. So if those pictures were taken the day the dog lost, that is very likely one of the reasons the judges didn't consider her at that time.

And unrelated note - there were actually Belgians at this show!

 

[OwnedByBCs]

I agree 100% with Equinox on the matter of many breeds becoming over-angulated. Even BCs are becoming more and more angulated and I don't like it one bit. It doesn't do much for them in herding either.

However, I have to wonder about these majorly sloping toplines in American showline GSDs, and the roach topline in German showlines. What is with that? That really bugs me, it just looks wrong. It doesn't look anything like correct dog structure to me. If someone can explain why the banana back or the skislope topline is useful... I'd love to know.. I just don't see it.

 

[Maliraptor]

Maliraptor, you need to get back to working and breeding German Shepherds so my problems can all be solved

I love the breed. But I will be honest, since many are now wondering I am sure, the health issues drove me out of it. According to OFA, 20% of GSDs (of SUBMITTED films!) are dysplastic. That is 1 in 5. So in a litter of 10 puppies, statistically, 2 are dysplastic. That is just hips. We've had 3 with Elbow issues. Two DJD and one UAP. Immune system issues. Cancers. A good friend of mine put down her 5 year old GSD because of cancer, he was her life. Finally, it is easier to find a good working, healthy Malinois. :yikes:

I agree 100% with Equinox on the matter of many breeds becoming over-angulated. Even BCs are becoming more and more angulated and I don't like it one bit. It doesn't do much for them in herding either.

However, I have to wonder about these majorly sloping toplines in American showline GSDs, and the roach topline in German showlines. What is with that? That really bugs me, it just looks wrong. It doesn't look anything like correct dog structure to me. If someone can explain why the banana back or the skislope topline is useful... I'd love to know.. I just don't see it.

Ok- American dogs. The idea is about sidegait. That the dog cover the most amount of ground with ONE stride as possible. How to do that? Lengthen the stifle (what you're calling Angulation is IMO turn of stifle). Bring the front assembly upright so the shoulder opens and covers the most possible ground. The result, is the "flying trot". Dogs are NOT shown pulling, they float.

German dogs. The vision is power in the movement, the trot of course. A dog who can herd all day. The dogs started being shown PULLING, hard, on the leash and the handler to show the power and efficiency in the gait. Guess what a pulling dog looks like? Yep, banana back. So along the way, it became OK to show the APPEARANCE of a pulling back, when in fact the dog was just hump backed. Same with a roach, it comes from the illusion the dog is tucking in and pushing with those hind legs.

Like anything, warp with time and success and some freaky individuals that were shown and rewarded, and there you go.

Oh- and the reason for the stack? To give the judge the impression of how the dog would move, at a trot, while standing still.

 

[Whisper]

I love the breed. But I will be honest, since many are now wondering I am sure, the health issues drove me out of it. According to OFA, 20% of GSDs (of SUBMITTED films!) are dysplastic. That is 1 in 5. So in a litter of 10 puppies, statistically, 2 are dysplastic. That is just hips. We've had 3 with Elbow issues. Two DJD and one UAP. Immune system issues. Cancers.

That is frightening. I only have my first GSD and she's still a puppy (so obviously I'm way ahead of myself, lol), but based on all the GSDs I've known and how different this puppy is compared to others I've had, I can seriously see myself breeding them in the (far!) future. It really sounds like it would be full of heartbreak, though. I'm so sorry for the health problems in your litters. I can see why that would make you take a step back even from a breed you love dearly.

 

[Maliraptor]

That is frightening. I only have my first GSD and she's still a puppy (so obviously I'm way ahead of myself, lol), but based on all the GSDs I've known and how different this puppy is compared to others I've had, I can seriously see myself breeding them in the (far!) future. It really sounds like it would be full of heartbreak, though. I'm so sorry for the health problems in your litters. I can see why that would make you take a step back even from a breed you love dearly.

Not my litters. I had 3 litters and only two questionable hips, and one was on a puppy who had broken that leg as an 8 week old. I do have one pup from my last litter (3 years old) that has allergies, which I consider immune related and genetic.

These are dogs we bought. My husband's first THREE GSDs were dysplastic. Too bad to do sport. One so bad he had to be put to sleep at 8 months.

My first two GSDs for sport were dysplastic. Then I had good hips, then two bad. I stopped after the two bad, and bought a Malinois puppy. :yikes:

 

[Saeleofu]

Oh- and the reason for the stack? To give the judge the impression of how the dog would move, at a trot, while standing still.

This just makes NO sense to me, at all. The dogs are shown stacked and then at a trot. Why make your dog look like it's trotting while it's stacked, then? Pretty much every other breed has a square stack (I'm sure there are others that don't stack square, but can't think of a specific example now). Square makes sense.

 

[Maliraptor]

This just makes NO sense to me, at all. The dogs are shown stacked and then at a trot. Why make your dog look like it's trotting while it's stacked, then? Pretty much every other breed has a square stack (I'm sure there are others that don't stack square, but can't think of a specific example now). Square makes sense.

I agree 100%. And it's not what the dog would look like trotting anyways.

 

[Saeleofu]

ETA Looking at the pictures from the UKC show, I'm not sure which dog I would have went with. Not sure if the dog posted was the only wGSD at the show but there are 5 pictures of a wGSD moving and the dog is pacing in every one of them. Judges really can't (or shouldn't) put up a dog who paces excessively during judging, as there's no way to judge proper movement and pacing can also be a sign of structural issues. So if those pictures were taken the day the dog lost, that is very likely one of the reasons the judges didn't consider her at that time.

There was only the one white one. And yes, she was pacing about half the time...but so was the bitch she was up against. The judge was pretty much coaching them the entire time to get their dogs into a trot instead of pace. Watching her judge you could see she was frustrated. I know the white one is young, under a year I think. The other bitch is a little older, not sure how old though. I want to say 2 but again, not sure. The fluffy/curly one with goofy ears is a male, I think in the 8 month range. None of the GSDs placed in group.

 

[Whisper]

Not my litters. I had 3 litters and only two questionable hips, and one was on a puppy who had broken that leg as an 8 week old. I do have one pup from my last litter (3 years old) that has allergies, which I consider immune related and genetic.

These are dogs we bought. My husband's first THREE GSDs were dysplastic. Too bad to do sport. One so bad he had to be put to sleep at 8 months.

My first two GSDs for sport were dysplastic. Then I had good hips, then two bad. I stopped after the two bad, and bought a Malinois puppy. :yikes:

Oh, okay, thanks for clarifying. That must be so hard, too! I am concerned about this with Fable. She's only 8 weeks and every once in a while I find myself dreading possible health issues that might come up. I lost 3 Rottweilers in a row to cancer (one was Harley and his sire, the other was unrelated) and I don't want to go down the same road with GSDs. It sounds entirely possible, though.

 

[Maliraptor]

Oh, okay, thanks for clarifying. That must be so hard, too! I am concerned about this with Fable. She's only 8 weeks and every once in a while I find myself dreading possible health issues that might come up. I lost 3 Rottweilers in a row to cancer (one was Harley and his sire, the other was unrelated) and I don't want to go down the same road with GSDs. It sounds entirely possible, though.

Oh crud, sorry. I have passed my paranoia on to you.

I forgot DM, too. Although there is a gene test for that now. Wish all breeders would do it.

Breathe. Enjoy your puppy, forget what I've said. When you do OFA xrays, I will hold you hand and count days with you. I love her name.

And I would, and WILL, own and work another GSD someday.

 

[Whisper]

Oh crud, sorry. I have passed my paranoia on to you.

I forgot DM, too. Although there is a gene test for that now. Wish all breeders would do it.

Breathe. Enjoy your puppy, forget what I've said. When you do OFA xrays, I will hold you hand and count days with you. I love her name.

And I would, and WILL, own and work another GSD someday.

Oh, no, you have no reason to be sorry! Your tragic stories about GSDs with health problems are sadly just some in addition to lots more I've heard.
Thank you! She's a rescue and definitely won't (and can't) be bred, but I plan on doing sports with her (though I'm waiting to see what she shows the most aptitude for). Most people I know don't do X-rays before doing sports with a "pet" dog, but before I put her through strenuous training, yep, I will do OFA, and I very much appreciate your thoughts and kind words.
All the Rottweilers I grew up with that died from cancer- they broke my heart and made me afraid, but I plan on owning another regardless. One of the dogs achieved Sch3 and he was a terrific dog, but nobody gave him any health tests before breeding him. :/ When I get another Rottie I'm looking for parents and grandparents' test results up the wazoo.

 

[Tazwell]

1903 is a spitting image of a beauceron (do I even see rear dewclaw(s)?) and 1904, 1905 and 1906 all look like Belgians! What a diverse group in the early years, even though they were 'standardized'.

They all look the same after the fifties.

 

[AgilityPup]

*drools* at all the pretty dogs posted in this picture.

Maliraptor, you need to get back to working and breeding German Shepherds so my problems can all be solved

I love the GSDs, I really do. But Maliraptor needs to stay in with the Mals so that when I'm ready for mine she can help me find a good one.