FrenchKissed - The Website.

[doberkim]

Dang, got me again. There's just no pulling one over on you is there.



I'd rather have titles that show I trained and interacted with my dogs and have a wonderful bond with them than any title you have managed to pay someone to slap on your dogs' names.

I don't understand this.

Excuse me, but the training and relationship I have built with my dog that involve obedience training are certainly not titles that I have paid someone to slap on my dog. On the converse I could say that simply because you cannot put enough "good manners" on your dog to obtain a simple CD shows how lazy you are. I know it takes a lot more than just simple good manners for some dogs, but throwing around accusations and all these half-truths are ridiculous.


Performance titles are viable titles that often take a LOT more time and investment than other titles, especially when you go onto higher levels. And they have involved a lot of training, interaction, and love.

The hypocrisy on the board is funny sometimes... it's ok for people to breed dogs with only CH titles, but some would clearly feel it is not ok to breed only with performance titles?

 

[Dizzy]

The hypocrisy on the board is funny sometimes...

Careful saying that - apparently there is no hypocrisy, and if you think there is then apparently.... you're a hypocrite.

It's fantastic logic

 

[ACooper]

... it's ok for people to breed dogs with only CH titles, but some would clearly feel it is not ok to breed only with performance titles?

I don't think that is what shadow was talking about.........she was talking about sending your dog out with handlers.

Correct me if I am wrong Shadow.

 

[shadowfacedanes]

I don't think that is what shadow was talking about.........she was talking about sending your dog out with handlers.

Correct me if I am wrong Shadow.

Nope, you're correct.

Doberkim, re-read.

I was saying that I would rather have ANY title on my dogs name that I had earned myself, meaning that I WORKD WITH MY DOG, and bonded with my dog and spent the time with my dog as opposed to the person I was replying to.

Before you insult me, make sure you've taken what I've written in the correct context first.

I also did not bash obedience titles. I mentioned my previous dane's titles and a comment was made saying those weren't legit titles. So hence my reply that you quoted.

And for the record, because of Hannah's spinal injuries, she cannot physically obtain obedience titles. But thanks for implying that I'm lazy. And a hypocrite.

 

[cockerchaos]

Nope, you're correct.

Doberkim, re-read.

I was saying that I would rather have ANY title on my dogs name that I had earned myself, meaning that I WORKD WITH MY DOG, and bonded with my dog and spent the time with my dog as opposed to the person I was replying to.

Before you insult me, make sure you've taken what I've written in the correct context first.

I also did not bash obedience titles. I mentioned my previous dane's titles and a comment was made saying those weren't legit titles. So hence my reply that you quoted.


And for the record, because of Hannah's spinal injuries, she cannot physically obtain obedience titles. But thanks for implying that I'm lazy. And a hypocrite.

Have you ever given any thought to some PEOPLE who physically CAN'T handle their own dogs to titles because of a possible physical impairment?
I'd rather have a title slapped on to none at all.

 

[Psyfalcon]

How many people does that actually effect? What are the physical requirements for a human during an obedience trial or temperament test? I guess we're near the end of this argument when the point being made gets this convoluted. Sure, if you can't walk or wheel yourself around with your dog, go ahead and hire someone, but how can you care for a dog while being that impaired?

Besides conformation, a lot of otherwise very difficult to handle dogs are handled or trained by professionals in the field trial world.

 

[cockerchaos]

How many people does that actually effect? What are the physical requirements for a human during an obedience trial or temperament test? I guess we're near the end of this argument when the point being made gets this convoluted. Sure, if you can't walk or wheel yourself around with your dog, go ahead and hire someone, but how can you care for a dog while being that impaired?

Besides conformation, a lot of otherwise very difficult to handle dogs are handled or trained by professionals in the field trial world.

Uuuuum, so no one should have a dog now that may be impaired?? Talk about convulted.

Let's use bad knees for example....not bad enough to get around and function but the repetative rigors or showing or trialing would be hell on them and/or make it worse. I DO know a few show people that have gone through this...easier to get a handler and saves the knees.
Or: high blood pressure
bad circulation from diabetes
too fat to run around with their dog (sorry, but that happens too so just being honest)
OLD age (lots of them around)

There are MANY reasons some can't handle their own dogs. Some are just too d@mn scared to do it themselves or don't want to deal with some of the pompous attitudes at the shows.

So, none of this has anything to do with ones ability to care for their dogs.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Have you ever given any thought to some PEOPLE who physically CAN'T handle their own dogs to titles because of a possible physical impairment?
I'd rather have a title slapped on to none at all.

FWIW, I know of and have seen numerous people competing with dogs who were in wheel chairs.

Both in breed and obedience. The obedience dog was a VERY high scoring dog.

 

[cockerchaos]

FWIW, I know of and have seen numerous people competing with dogs who were in wheel chairs.

Both in breed and obedience. The obedience dog was a VERY high scoring dog.

I have too...and I admire the ones that do even if the are few and far between.
But the point I was trying to make is that it is nice to be able to have a CHOICE to use a handler or not without it being construed as a bad thing because one does not handle their own dogs for ANY reason.

 

[cockerchaos]

Oh, and in the case of knees, or any other joint disease, I think I would rather the handler BEFORE putting myself in a wheelchair because of it.

 

[FrenchKissed]

The most common reason why people use handlers is that they work. Not everyone has the luxary of being off every weekend or being off at all. There are those of us who work jobs we cannot up an leave without making arrangements that wind up costing more money then it would to just hire a handler.

 

[verderben]

Ok I am still reading this thread but I don't understand some people here sometimes. I have and still do use a professional handler. But *I* go to conformation classes with my dogs, *I* have trained them for the ring, I also have handled my own dogs in the ring when able to. BUT if not for a handler my dogs would NOT be titled. I work EVERY weekend. I do not get a weekend off unless I take a vacation day. And where I work, from November 1 to January 1 you are allowed NO vacation time because it is our busiest time. And the BIGGEST shows and specialties here are during that time. Without a handler my dogs would not be able to compete in those shows. I don't see how having a handler makes your dogs titles any less valid, and I think some people are grasping at straws here just because they have a personal vendetta going on. JMO

 

[ACooper]

**sigh**

 

[shadowfacedanes]

I have no problems with handlers.

I have problems with people who have 30 gazillion dogs and their handler(s) probably knows their dogs better than them.

When I mentioned my previous dogs' titles, I was told that they were not legitimate AKC titles.

My reply was meant to convey that I would rather have those "illegitimate" titles (TT, TDI, CGC) that I earned with my dog - showing that I spent the time with my dog and the effort with my dog - than the CH's that FK has paid a handler to put on her dogs.

That's all.

So please, don't turn this into something more than it is.

 

[FrenchKissed]

I have no problems with handlers. My reply was meant to convey that I would rather have those "illegitimate" titles (TT, TDI, CGC) that I earned with my dog - showing that I spent the time with my dog and the effort with my dog - than the CH's that FK has paid a handler to put on her dogs..

The thing about chin is, if they are not well socialized, well handled, and trained from almost birth they will never show and be like wild squirrles. The one who are well handled will sometimes refuse to show, they are a fickle breed...anyone in this breed knows, they have to have constant one on one love and care to get anything from them.
Only the best socialized ones and those with a steady temperment can even be handed off to a handler to begin with. Way to many would freak out and shut down.

 

[SummerRiot]

I think handlers are a great way to get your dog campaigned as well.

BUT I also know a LOT of breeder/handlers as well. Those are definately the lucky individuals to be able to show their own dogs.

I have to book off any weekend I go for a show b/c I am usually working them. It costs me TONS of money, but I love doing it with Riot.

Also - being a male Belgian he CAN be hard to work with in the ring.

I have tried the handler thing with him when he was younger and it just didn't work out. He wouldn't show for them in the ring and never placed.

I dont mind showing against professional handlers - but at times it is a bit hard.

I also like seeing the prof handlers at shows.. you just come to recognize them and if they need help you offer it. Its comforting to see people that you know and do show circuits with at the shows.

 

[FrenchKissed]

I think handlers are a great way to get your dog campaigned as well.

Another thing to consider...
In breeds that are rare, it is very hard to find competition. Sometimes you have to travel to find your majors. Sometimes that travel means going 4-5 states away. Not everyone can do that. The other thing to consider is in very popular breeds, where majors take 20+ dogs, you may also have to travel to find the points, or travel to an area where the judges like your style of dog. Why waste your money locally if the judges that are usually local don't like your chosen style. You may have to go up north, far east or west.
Especially with the really popular breeds, a style can dominante a particular region and anything unlike that style doesn't get a second look, odd man out so to speak. In popular breeds you also have the matter of numbers, numbers to big that you are apt not to get noticed. While it's unfair, it's a sad fact, that many times when you walk into a ring the handlers are noticed first and that is who the judges look at. Many people in the golden community have been pushing for changes to the point system because it is causing problem. Emphasis on wins and not on soundness, emphasis on flash and not on correctness, emphasis on who's showing the dog and not the dog....a grizzly reality. What many don't consider on the last part is...you may have a dog with a handler but then so does 15 of the other 20 people in the ring...so you still have to fight for that win. In the last few years the ring politics has taken an whole new turn and I just can't bring myself to play at that level, which I kindly refer to as cheating, but if you want to win you have to be willing to play the game.

 

[Raven2]

or travel to an area where the judges like your style of dog. Why waste your money locally if the judges that are usually local don't like your chosen style. You may have to go up north, far east or west.
Especially with the really popular breeds, a style can dominante a particular region and anything unlike that style doesn't get a second look, odd man out so to speak.
While it's unfair, it's a sad fact, that many times when you walk into a ring the handlers are noticed first and that is who the judges look at. Many people in the golden community have been pushing for changes to the point system because it is causing problem. Emphasis on wins and not on soundness, emphasis on flash and not on correctness, emphasis on who's showing the dog and not the dog....a grizzly reality. What many don't consider on the last part is...you may have a dog with a handler but then so does 15 of the other 20 people in the ring...so you still have to fight for that win. In the last few years the ring politics has taken an whole new turn and I just can't bring myself to play at that level, which I kindly refer to as cheating, but if you want to win you have to be willing to play the game.

I disagree your dog should fit the AKC standard.

I also disagree that the judges look at who is showing the dog. I was just at a show and none of the judges based it on the handler. It was all on each dogs conformation. Most did not even look at the handler.

 

[verderben]

I disagree your dog should fit the AKC standard.

I also disagree that the judges look at who is showing the dog. I was just at a show and none of the judges based it on the handler. It was all on each dogs conformation. Most did not even look at the handler.

Maybe at that show it was lik ethat but I too have seen too many times a Prof handler with a crappy dog win over a great dog with an owner handling them. I have had it happen to me more times than I like to count. I don't mind losing to a better dog, but when the dog that wins is clearly a poor example it pisses me off. At one show I had my dog and there was one other dog of his breed. The other dog was a short fat lowrider style dog, clearly out of standard. This dog was so freakin fat it could barely make it around the ring, huffing and wheezing dragging behind, bowed out ,legs. the dog was awful looking, BUT it had a professional handler. Bet you can't guess which dog won.

 

[Raven2]

These judges judge all over the USA and I saw none of that very few handlers got first place and none did in the BOB match's.
I have not seen that in any shows I have gone to for months. The dogs that placed deserved to win
in all the shows I have attended. The AKC should do the same as UKC no handlers allowed.
That way there wouldn't be that type of thing happening.