FrenchKissed - The Website.
- Thread starter Herschel
- Start date
That really hurts Poodlemommy. I thought you liked me. I enjoyed seeing your pictures and talking about Poodles. I had no idea you thought I was a hypocrit or those other things you said about the mods. This seems to have come out of the blue.
I know some of these mods pretty well and know them to have big hearts. So, sometimes we get a little passionate or heated about certain things, but that doesn't make us those horrible things you said. It is very hurtful. We don't get paid for this job and do the best we can. We can't spend all day long analyzing and weighing every little thing. Do you know how many members we have??????? We do the best we can.
I do sincerely hope you'll enjoy the other forum better. No sense hanging around here where you feel the way you do. It is run differently than most. The style of it here might not suit everyone. But everyone is free to choose what forum they want to go on.
As for the puppy mill concept. It is, IMO (and anyone who knows what's going on behind closed doors) a rotten way to treat man's best friend. Rotten!
I know some of these mods pretty well and know them to have big hearts. So, sometimes we get a little passionate or heated about certain things, but that doesn't make us those horrible things you said. It is very hurtful. We don't get paid for this job and do the best we can. We can't spend all day long analyzing and weighing every little thing. Do you know how many members we have??????? We do the best we can.
I do sincerely hope you'll enjoy the other forum better. No sense hanging around here where you feel the way you do. It is run differently than most. The style of it here might not suit everyone. But everyone is free to choose what forum they want to go on.
As for the puppy mill concept. It is, IMO (and anyone who knows what's going on behind closed doors) a rotten way to treat man's best friend. Rotten!
JH does not mean much, I'm sorry to say. It does show basic ability, but a rather poor dog can pass JH, it appears relatively common that show line Am. Cockers can title at JH, while I know of only one that managed Master Hunter. I wouldn't say its a valid test of breedability. Good, but still not good enough!
Compare that with the MH title. (Its actually a test though, non-competitive unlike a field trial- which has its pros and cons)
Compare that with the MH title. (Its actually a test though, non-competitive unlike a field trial- which has its pros and cons)
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2007
- Messages
- 57
- Likes
- 0
- Points
- 0
we did field trials..I believe for "bettering the breed" that is the ultimate. Sound body, desire and strength backed up with great intelligence, that should be the goal of every breeder. To test the intelligence and phsyical ability is the whole point. With the litter to be comes a whole slew of attributes to be considering. I remember logs of field trial notes, news letters, pedigrees, notes of the dog in the field spread across the table, cross referenced and discussed and debated. I don't pretend to understand the show end of this, but neither is done on a mass scale. it can't be unless your independently weathly and can hire a team. The litter is what finances the cost of showing and supports the care of the sire and or dam. I don't know one breeder that can do what it takes to produce a champion and pay for their own keep as well. THe cost of producing a champion is staggering.
I'm not a particular fan of field trials, I think they reward flashier dogs over some others that may be more deserving. This is coming from an east coast mindset though, close, close in grouse or stocked pheasant.
Field Trials are just too one breed dominated for me, Pointers, English Springers and Labs. They tend to be the fastest, most ranging and stylish dogs. The average field trial pointer from the midwest would be 3 towns over on the east coast
If you want the Pointer to be the wide ranging, fast dog, its great. Its not great if you like the tougher, slower dogs, Clumbers, water spaniels and Chessies though. Those breeds would have to change a great deal to regularly compete on the field trial circuit.
An AWS with a MH for me please!
Field Trials are just too one breed dominated for me, Pointers, English Springers and Labs. They tend to be the fastest, most ranging and stylish dogs. The average field trial pointer from the midwest would be 3 towns over on the east coast
If you want the Pointer to be the wide ranging, fast dog, its great. Its not great if you like the tougher, slower dogs, Clumbers, water spaniels and Chessies though. Those breeds would have to change a great deal to regularly compete on the field trial circuit.
An AWS with a MH for me please!
I remember the pointers coming across the field where we would have a water test set up..looked so exciting! Still the line on the paper is the straightest from the judge to the fall and back, no matter what breed does it. That was the way it was when i was there. Speed wasn't an issue, finding the fall was. But my point was you tested your dog spring and fall, trained every day in between, had road cost, entry fee, and on that basis when the litter did come, from a dog that had proved itself, you certainly didn't throw them in a pen on the side of the road and sell to people that see a sign saying puppies, or sell on line, sight on seen. Mass producing comes with mass problems. puppies grow fast, and have to be moved quickly. How many litters does a dog have in their lifetime to provide a living for one person? How many females does it take to keep the bills paid? And how in the world to you manage to insure vet care for all of them? And how do you manage to keep the stress of this type of breeding from affecting the longterm health of both your breeding stock and the puppies that will go out into the world and interact with the rest of their specie. Genetically are they weaker? Are they more predisposed to illness because of their housing? We won't even go into the moral issue of making a dog breed over and over again. No dog should have to go through that.
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2006
- Messages
- 2,947
- Likes
- 0
- Points
- 36
No, what's hypocritical is you going on about how awful the mods are and calling them out on their so called misbehaviors and practices and favoritisms.
Isn't that the same thing we've all done with Frenchkissed? Called her out on her practices?
So what makes you any better?
We're being mean and rude and attacking, but you're doing someone a service?
And just curious, since you made your little pet comment.....Am I classified as a pet?
(Fingers crossed, I've always wanted to be someone's pet!!)
Isn't that the same thing we've all done with Frenchkissed? Called her out on her practices?
So what makes you any better?
We're being mean and rude and attacking, but you're doing someone a service?
And just curious, since you made your little pet comment.....Am I classified as a pet?
(Fingers crossed, I've always wanted to be someone's pet!!)
the request has been made numerous times to not make personal attacks. The topic was valid, and the subject matter important. If you have a problem with someone please pm or notify a mod, do not take away from the topic at hand by diverting personal feelings in a public manner. Mass breeding should be a concern to everyone. IF someone wants to debate the ethics of this practice we should read the reasoning behind it. We should be able to ask questions. Personal insults only detract from that.
People who participate in this practice have just as much a right do state their reasons why they believe it is "ethical" as we have to disagree. Questioning brings forth facts from both sides so we can make a more educated decision on where we stand on this issue. Please stay to the topic.
People who participate in this practice have just as much a right do state their reasons why they believe it is "ethical" as we have to disagree. Questioning brings forth facts from both sides so we can make a more educated decision on where we stand on this issue. Please stay to the topic.
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2006
- Messages
- 1,083
- Likes
- 0
- Points
- 0
Why lock a thread when there are posts that provide learning experiences? People are quick to want something locked when it isn't going their way, I've noticed.
On the subject of titles:
I seem to remember that the golden in question was going to Canada for his championship points. A title in Canada is easier to obtain than an AKC title (which explains why a dog of a popular breed - a breed that easily makes majors in the U.S. - is going to Canada instead). You need ten points, and a major there is any win of 2 or more points.
There are clubs in Canada who do four-six conformation shows in ONE weekend. A quality dog with just a bit of competition can earn a title in one weekend. One of the gals I train with here took her golden male to a set of Canadian shows the same weekend that I went. There were six conformation shows and four obedience trials in the three day weekend. She earned a championship on her dog and I earned a CD on mine in that one weekend.
Cost? Well, it costs me more than it did her because I slept in a motel part of the time. She camped in her truck. Gas, entries, motel, food - total was probably $1000 for me, less for her.
So I'm not quite sure why anyone would need to spend $15,000 to obtain a title on a dog unless the dog just isn't that good of a quality .. and then should they really be breeding it? Heck, I've put two titles on my chow this year, have one more leg toward her next title that I'd hope to get next weekend, PLUS I put a last title on my shepherd - and all four titles this year probably cost me under $2000 (even though they were all out of town). Now, if I counted in my TIME .. *L* .. but I have the time to devote to training because I only have five dogs and can spend time with each of them daily.
So I never believe the whole "it costs too much to get titles" excuse any more than I accept that excuse for health certifications.
If you're going to breed, you better plan on doing it right or people WILL question you - and rightfully so! If I choose to breed Khana, I WANT people to question me. I want them to expect proof of her quality. I want them to understand my reasons for breeding. It's my responsibility, and I won't be evasive either. The DOGS deserve breeders who are honest and open and who do what is RIGHT and not just what's LEGAL.
JMHO.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
On the subject of titles:
I seem to remember that the golden in question was going to Canada for his championship points. A title in Canada is easier to obtain than an AKC title (which explains why a dog of a popular breed - a breed that easily makes majors in the U.S. - is going to Canada instead). You need ten points, and a major there is any win of 2 or more points.
There are clubs in Canada who do four-six conformation shows in ONE weekend. A quality dog with just a bit of competition can earn a title in one weekend. One of the gals I train with here took her golden male to a set of Canadian shows the same weekend that I went. There were six conformation shows and four obedience trials in the three day weekend. She earned a championship on her dog and I earned a CD on mine in that one weekend.
Cost? Well, it costs me more than it did her because I slept in a motel part of the time. She camped in her truck. Gas, entries, motel, food - total was probably $1000 for me, less for her.
So I'm not quite sure why anyone would need to spend $15,000 to obtain a title on a dog unless the dog just isn't that good of a quality .. and then should they really be breeding it? Heck, I've put two titles on my chow this year, have one more leg toward her next title that I'd hope to get next weekend, PLUS I put a last title on my shepherd - and all four titles this year probably cost me under $2000 (even though they were all out of town). Now, if I counted in my TIME .. *L* .. but I have the time to devote to training because I only have five dogs and can spend time with each of them daily.
So I never believe the whole "it costs too much to get titles" excuse any more than I accept that excuse for health certifications.
If you're going to breed, you better plan on doing it right or people WILL question you - and rightfully so! If I choose to breed Khana, I WANT people to question me. I want them to expect proof of her quality. I want them to understand my reasons for breeding. It's my responsibility, and I won't be evasive either. The DOGS deserve breeders who are honest and open and who do what is RIGHT and not just what's LEGAL.
JMHO.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2006
- Messages
- 6,444
- Likes
- 0
- Points
- 36
Melanie,
Go through the entire thread... you are one of only a handful of people who had anything intelligent and useful to say or add to the conversation. Most everyone else was personally attacking or having "fun" at the expense of French Kissed.
I was one of the first people to say this thread should be locked and I had not posted on here at all yet... or in any other thread relating to this topic for that matter. I just saw what was being done to FrenchKissed and did not feel it was fair.
No one needs to agree with anything she says... but there is no need to respond if they dont have something useful to add that could possibly make her think about her actions in the future. If everyone's posts had been like yours (and a few others) the thread never would have taken the turn that it did and I for one never would have reccomended it be locked.
Elissa
Go through the entire thread... you are one of only a handful of people who had anything intelligent and useful to say or add to the conversation. Most everyone else was personally attacking or having "fun" at the expense of French Kissed.
I was one of the first people to say this thread should be locked and I had not posted on here at all yet... or in any other thread relating to this topic for that matter. I just saw what was being done to FrenchKissed and did not feel it was fair.
No one needs to agree with anything she says... but there is no need to respond if they dont have something useful to add that could possibly make her think about her actions in the future. If everyone's posts had been like yours (and a few others) the thread never would have taken the turn that it did and I for one never would have reccomended it be locked.
Elissa
Is "mass breeding" the topic? What is the topic? Hard to tell...are we "grading kennels" or "grading breeding practices"?.
Are we speaking specifically ONLY of this one person? If so...why? Why are we not discussing this in general, rather than picking apart one person for no other reason than they are not perhaps "popular"?
From what I have experienced actually being a person who breeds and shows, most Toy people I know breed more than 2 litters per annum as litter sizes are small. Most keep more than 4-5 dogs because they are small and tend to live together okay in groups.
Goldens...it takes FOUR bitches to make ONE point in my area...and for a 3pts major it takes...TWENTY TWO DOGS and TWENTY FOUR bitches to make it. Often, bitches and quite a few dogs of this breed are bred without a Conf Ch because it takes an immense amount of work and time to get one, it may never come if you run into politics or are not in a position to hire a big gun! It also may in fact never come if in your area there aren't enough dogs or bitches showing to make your major. You CANNOT finish a dog's Ch without two majors...sheesh.
What else comprises the topic here? Advertising? Oh I covered that with the snippet I posted elsewhere.
Having a kennel set up? oH YES...that's horrid too!...lol. Ya know what they call people who have intact dogs running around in their homes in numbers over what 3-4? with no means to separate them and prevent unwanted litters? or keep puppies safe from the older dogs? Or keep older fragile dogs safe from rambunctiuos puppies? Or to keep resident dogs safe from disease brought in by outside dogs or fosters? Hoarders...yes, far preferable to a nice clean roomy kennel set up used as secondary housing.
Did I miss anything comprising the "topic" we're now...after how pages...supposed to stick to? Talk about shutting the barn door after the horses are already out.
Are we speaking specifically ONLY of this one person? If so...why? Why are we not discussing this in general, rather than picking apart one person for no other reason than they are not perhaps "popular"?
From what I have experienced actually being a person who breeds and shows, most Toy people I know breed more than 2 litters per annum as litter sizes are small. Most keep more than 4-5 dogs because they are small and tend to live together okay in groups.
Goldens...it takes FOUR bitches to make ONE point in my area...and for a 3pts major it takes...TWENTY TWO DOGS and TWENTY FOUR bitches to make it. Often, bitches and quite a few dogs of this breed are bred without a Conf Ch because it takes an immense amount of work and time to get one, it may never come if you run into politics or are not in a position to hire a big gun! It also may in fact never come if in your area there aren't enough dogs or bitches showing to make your major. You CANNOT finish a dog's Ch without two majors...sheesh.
What else comprises the topic here? Advertising? Oh I covered that with the snippet I posted elsewhere.
Having a kennel set up? oH YES...that's horrid too!...lol. Ya know what they call people who have intact dogs running around in their homes in numbers over what 3-4? with no means to separate them and prevent unwanted litters? or keep puppies safe from the older dogs? Or keep older fragile dogs safe from rambunctiuos puppies? Or to keep resident dogs safe from disease brought in by outside dogs or fosters? Hoarders...yes, far preferable to a nice clean roomy kennel set up used as secondary housing.
Did I miss anything comprising the "topic" we're now...after how pages...supposed to stick to? Talk about shutting the barn door after the horses are already out.
In my area for papillons it's the same way. Beau had to beat 50+ dogs for his majors. He should've gotten two three points his first weekend out but a person scratched their entry right before and we were one short on males. >.<
Finding majors is a PITA.
Anyways, I *think* the orginal topic was discussing a specific property in no way connected to FrenchKissed and how it appeared to be an inadequate way to house dogs. Which I agree.
Now three topics later and.... well, you can see.
So I'll quote myself from several pages back.
Finding majors is a PITA.
Anyways, I *think* the orginal topic was discussing a specific property in no way connected to FrenchKissed and how it appeared to be an inadequate way to house dogs. Which I agree.
Now three topics later and.... well, you can see.
So I'll quote myself from several pages back.