Electric Shock Collar Education

IliamnasQuest

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#21
Ok the article Iliama posted was from 1988, could Sam or somebody post the copyright/original print date for "Bones would rain from the sky"?

If you read through the article, you will find notes at the bottom from Suzanne that acknowledge the article was written "a long time ago" and she has included more notes on the use of the prong collar. The page is copyrighted 2003.

She hasn't changed her mind .. much like me, she advocates strongly the use of positive reinforcement and building a relationship but understands that there are times when aversives can be necessary for some dogs.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
 

mrose_s

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#22
sad to say. we're considring getting a shock collar. i agrred it should be our last resort and we're there now, we personally can stand the barking. but we've had a lot of complaints. and we're nervous that the neighbours might poison our dogs if they continue to bark.

i thi we would go with the citronella spraying one... ehh. but still. is terrible. i don't knwo if we can bring ourselves to do that. no matter what the situation. ahrry got zapped by an electric fence once and absolutley FEAKED out. so i don't even know if it woudl work.

if we did get one though. we wouldn't be usiing it untill positive that we could use it properly and it would only be on when we were away for long amount at time..

even as i write this... i highly doubt we'll even get one :)
 

Doberluv

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#23
It been a long time since I read the book, but I don't recall her advocating that kind of punishment. I do remember enjoying the book and don't recall getting that impression. But again, it's been a long time. Have you read the book Melanie? If she did say that, I don't agree with that aspect. The people I most respect, Jean Donaldson, Karen Pryor, Pat Miller and a few others absolutely do not believe in that kind of aversive and they explain why. And it is to me, logical besides being something I, personally couldn't dream of doing to a dog. So, whether or not she believes in it, now, or ever before, I don't.

As with most things, there may be parts one takes and things one rejects. If one thinks that sort of thing is OK and can stomach electrically shocking an animal, then so be it. I know for myself and a whole lot of "positive" method trainers, that would be diametrically out of line with our philosophy, with the principles we use and the way we feel about life. It would work against what we're trying to achieve with our best friends.
 

sam

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#24
I don't think anyone who has read "bones" could believe that Suzanne Clothier would advocate the use of a shock collar except for in the most dire dire circumstance- and even then I'm not convinced.
Pretty big leap to say the fact that she is not completely anti prong collar means she would advocate the use of a shock collar to proof recalls. I'm pretty sure it's Ch 2 that describes a dog trained with a shock collar and shows the serious downside of using it. (of course it's also used in a pretty scary manor which I'm sure every pro shock collar trainer would quickly point out) but to me the message is clear. That exerp from her book is on her website if anyone wants to read it.
 
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#25
You're right Sam. I'm looking at it right now (One of my personal favs as well:) ) and I see nothing but opinions to the contrary.

OLD articles by Jean Donaldson can also be found I'm sure with opinions that are different from her current thinking. Her second edition book (Culture Clash) was written because she has evolved away from pain inducing physical aversives and wanted to be sure to include that in her very popular and valuable book.

Anyway, this thread is about Electric Shock Collar use, not prong collars so it would be nice if everyone could stay on track.:)
 
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sam

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#26
You're right Sam. I'm looking at it right now (One of my personal favs as well ) and I see nothing but opinions to the contrary.

OLD articles by Jean Donaldson can also be found I'm sure with opinions that are different from her current thinking. Her second edition book (Culture Clash) was written because she has evolved away from pain inducing physical aversives and wanted to be sure to include that in her very popular and valuable book.

Anyway, this thread is about Electric Shock Collar use, not prong collars so it would be nice if everyone could stay on track.
Well I'm taking us way off track for a second.
I don't remember Jean Donaldson ever advocating positive punishment. Then again I am MUCH younger than you. LMAO-- BURN! he he

I have read both editions of Culture Clash multiple times over (my name is Heather and I am a Jean Donaldson superfan) and my take on the changes was that she actually toned down her fairly cutting and inflammatory anti positive punishment language. In the first edition she refers to choke chains as "strangle collars" etc I persoanlly LOVED the first edition just because of all that edginess and tell it like it is style-- I just found it made the book more entertaininig. OC /CC talk can be so dry at times
 
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#27
Listen youngin...go to your room for that last comment!:D

I was at her seminar here in Calgary not that long ago (considering my age and relative understanding of time:p ) and she said that she used to use PP but would never go back to her old ways. She showed videos of her chow, getting her ready for x-rays and teaching touch and body manipulation tolerance and described how she would have done it in the past using some PP.
I was sure that the change was reflected more strongly in her latest edition (haven't read either for a while) but I could be confusing it with the seminar information....DANG SENILITY:p :mad:
 

BostonBanker

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#28
-Can harsh punishment and aversives suppress behavior and be used in dog training to control and punish an animal ? YES.

-Does it work as well as other methods? NO.

-Are there very serious possible side effects that come from training using physical punishment? YES.

And you say that you thought adding pain and punishent to an aggression situation isn't recommended and you are RIGHT. Sadly that doesn't mean there aren't people out there using it. Do they often suppress the dogs outward siogns of aggression? YES. Have they addressed the underlying cause of the problem or made the situation safer? NO. All they have done is removed the ticker from the bomb.
You know you've been spending too much time on this board when you hear a random quote and immediately compare it to dog training.

I was watching an old episode of Criminal Minds today, and it closed with the following quote, which promptly made me think, 'that's why you don't punish aggression.'
"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent." -Ghandi

Sorry, I'll let the pros go back to their regularly scheduled program now;) .
 

sam

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#29
Listen youngin...go to your room for that last comment!:D

I was at her seminar here in Calgary not that long ago (considering my age and relative understanding of time:p ) and she said that she used to use PP but would never go back to her old ways. She showed videos of her chow, getting her ready for x-rays and teaching touch and body manipulation tolerance and described how she would have done it in the past using some PP.
I was sure that the change was reflected more strongly in her latest edition (haven't read either for a while) but I could be confusing it with the seminar information....DANG SENILITY

Yo Phil-- I was at that seminar-- FRONT ROW . :lol-sign: I'd never sit in the front raw since I'm so shy. ;) How could the president of the fan club miss it? I wish I'd known you back then. We could have had fun. I must have been dozing when she said she used to use PP but then again who didn't . I don't honestly know of a dog trainer who isn't a crossover in one way or other.
 

sam

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#30
You know you've been spending too much time on this board when you hear a random quote and immediately compare it to dog training.

I was watching an old episode of Criminal Minds today, and it closed with the following quote, which promptly made me think, 'that's why you don't punish aggression.'
"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent." -Ghandi

Sorry, I'll let the pros go back to their regularly scheduled program now;) .
HA that's funny.
I had a 'you know you spend too much time dog training' moment last week after the Golden had been here so long- I was vaccuming and needed to pull the cannister ahead and cued it in my happy dog voice with "let's go!" :eek:
Geoff was laughing at me. It's a cannister vaccuum not a dog trailing behind you!
 

Doberluv

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#31
I had a 'you know you spend too much time dog training' moment last week after the Golden had been here so long- I was vaccuming and needed to pull the cannister ahead and cued it in my happy dog voice with "let's go!"
ROFLOL!!!!!!! OMG!:yikes: Almost sprayed the monitor with tea with sugar in it! :D
 
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#32
Yo Phil-- I was at that seminar-- FRONT ROW . I'd never sit in the front raw since I'm so shy. How could the president of the fan club miss it? I wish I'd known you back then. We could have had fun. I must have been dozing when she said she used to use PP but then again who didn't . I don't honestly know of a dog trainer who isn't a crossover in one way or other.
Thanks for saying Hi:confused: I remember you..you were the gal who kept humping Jeans leg.:lol-sign:

Do you remember the videos of her chow? I hope I wasn't at a plumbing convention????:yikes: :D
 

sam

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#33
Do you remember the videos of her chow? I hope I wasn't at a plumbing convention????:yikes: :D

I managed not to hump her but I did rub up against in the hopes that some of her greatness would rub off on me. I got her to sign my book and then told her that it was the book that turned the lightbuld on for me. I think she saw the psycho stalker look in my eyes b/c she looked a bit nervous :p

I do remember her Buffy clips, the stuff for the x-rays- amazing stuff. I was most impressed by the dog-dog aggression rehab that blew me away. I loved the clip of her border collie attacking the vacuum and then putting herself in time out in the bathroom :D I would go see Jean again in a heartbeat.
 
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#34
I'd much rather read articles that show the good and the bad sides of things like e-collars instead of pure "anti-shock collar" articles by the "positive only" extremists, but that's just me. Sometimes I think that "positive only" extremists go too far, spread misinformation and overplay the "pain, fear, and abuse" caused by these tools. Certainly, when used improperly, an e-collar can and will have those effects on a dog, but when used properly, I think they can be beneficial in some situations. As with training collars (another tool with a bad rap) and prongs, I think e-collars have their own place in a trainer's toolbox. I don't think an e-collar is not meant to be used as a harsh aversive in most occassions. When done right, I don't think these things are supposed to cause anxiety and fear in a dog. Reading through some of the articles, trainers who use the e-collar speak out against using these tools abusively. In the links to the articles I posted, I remember reading that the desired response is only an "ear flinch" or something of the sort -- any more than that and they tell you to lower the setting. And you certainly can't use them on just any dog.

I've read again and again that positive reinforcement works best; I especially enjoyed reading Karen Pryor's "Don't Shoot the Dog". However, I think that a particular tool shouldn't be instantly written off as inhumane and evil. Most dogs aren't made of glass, and using aversives (like leash pops) here and there won't spell the end of the world and the psychological destruction of the dog. I do not advocate using the e-collar for regular obedience training, but I do understand using it for proofing and for "last resort"-type situations. What if that's the only option left -- what if everything else has not worked? Better to take an educated chance with an e-collar than to dump the dog at a shelter.

Anyway, what do I know, I only train my dog with a clicker.
 

MafiaPrincess

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#35
So I was googling tonight terrible habit I have.. Trying to find someone local a better trainer for her puppy, as it seems the one she has now sucks large. Came across this school, and this page really bugs the *beep* out of me. They do sessions with ecollars for aggression. Isn't that then a ticking timebomb dog? Obviously throwing this one out the window, but yeesh.. http://www.alphapaws.com/pricing.aspx
 
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#36
So I was googling tonight terrible habit I have.. Trying to find someone local a better trainer for her puppy, as it seems the one she has now sucks large. Came across this school, and this page really bugs the *beep* out of me. They do sessions with ecollars for aggression. Isn't that then a ticking timebomb dog? Obviously throwing this one out the window, but yeesh.. http://www.alphapaws.com/pricing.aspx

Unreal that this kind of logic still exists this day and age but some people just refuse to look at the evidence. Good catch and I agree, very scary place.
 

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