e-collar on a puppy? 14 weeks old.
- Thread starter BMPowers
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Do you want the short version or the long one?
Bottom line is: No, not a common method; Yes, way too early and NO, not a good way to train. I know that e-collars come in varying levels, from a low buzz to a sharp shock. Still, it works on punishment and at that young, you are risking have a very skittish, rather untrusting dog since it won't know what makes the collar go off. Maybe those trainers are different (but I HIGHLY doubt it), but I wouldn't trust someone who wants to put an e-collar on a puppy right off further than I can throw them. Actually, I wouldn't trust them at all.
If possible, i would find a different trainer before you even start. You don't want to damage your trust/relationship with your dog!
Bottom line is: No, not a common method; Yes, way too early and NO, not a good way to train. I know that e-collars come in varying levels, from a low buzz to a sharp shock. Still, it works on punishment and at that young, you are risking have a very skittish, rather untrusting dog since it won't know what makes the collar go off. Maybe those trainers are different (but I HIGHLY doubt it), but I wouldn't trust someone who wants to put an e-collar on a puppy right off further than I can throw them. Actually, I wouldn't trust them at all.
If possible, i would find a different trainer before you even start. You don't want to damage your trust/relationship with your dog!
they are very popular trainers
They are very known in my area...
They garentee a lot of different commands, and off leash obedience.
I met with a lot of trainers and this is the only one that I really liked.
Check out their website and tell me what you think.
www.tlck9.com
They are very known in my area...
They garentee a lot of different commands, and off leash obedience.
I met with a lot of trainers and this is the only one that I really liked.
Check out their website and tell me what you think.
www.tlck9.com
Life of the dog
They say that they will come back out for the life of the dog if any other obediance issues arise. Seems like a pretty decent deal to me, and your comment is the first bad one I've heard about e-collars in the short time I've been reading about them.
The trainer put the thing on me and set it to the level that most dogs are at and it barely felt like anything, just muscle stimulation.
They say that they will come back out for the life of the dog if any other obediance issues arise. Seems like a pretty decent deal to me, and your comment is the first bad one I've heard about e-collars in the short time I've been reading about them.
The trainer put the thing on me and set it to the level that most dogs are at and it barely felt like anything, just muscle stimulation.
I've demo'ed an e-collar on myself as well. I know how low they can be set.
Their website is incredibly vague on details. It's all promises with no information on how they accomplish that aside from the crack at Petsmart/Petco trainers. I'm not a fan of those training programs either, because I don't feel that 90% of their trainers really know what they're doing. But anyway...I love how they ripped off that picture of the GSD's sitting with the cat going by...I would have to sit in on one of their classes to give you a full opinion. But my general opinion is that any place that ignores all other training methods and devices and bases everything solely on a collar that the majority of the training world would like to see outlawed is not a place I would take my dog.
What happens if it turns out that your dog is one of the 'soft' dogs and shuts down with any type of correction? Are they just going to keep telling you to amp up the collar?
I'll PM you with another suggestion.
Their website is incredibly vague on details. It's all promises with no information on how they accomplish that aside from the crack at Petsmart/Petco trainers. I'm not a fan of those training programs either, because I don't feel that 90% of their trainers really know what they're doing. But anyway...I love how they ripped off that picture of the GSD's sitting with the cat going by...I would have to sit in on one of their classes to give you a full opinion. But my general opinion is that any place that ignores all other training methods and devices and bases everything solely on a collar that the majority of the training world would like to see outlawed is not a place I would take my dog.
What happens if it turns out that your dog is one of the 'soft' dogs and shuts down with any type of correction? Are they just going to keep telling you to amp up the collar?
I'll PM you with another suggestion.
Just because they are well known trainers does not mean they are well educated. I too service my clients for the life of the dog but not only don't recommend e-collars but they as well as choke, pinch and any other aversives are not allowed in any of my classes. I teach 14 different behaviors in my puppy class along with puppy problem solving, and socialization all with great success and without the use of physical punishment of any kind. E-collars are totally unexceptable and unnecessary for any dog but certainly not even remotely acceptable for a pup. Find out where your "trainer" recieved his/her training credentials/certifications and how current they are. The thought of an e-collar in puppy class just absolutely blows me away. I'm not directing my distaste at you but rather the questionable methods of this supposed professional.
Also, I agree with Zoom, their website is at best missing some very crutial information, namely they talk about experience (good and bad) as they leave out education, and at worst incorrect in their methods. Dog training has evolved due to research and long term studies which remain a mystery to old school trainers who refuse to stay current. Many trainers can offer both experience and credentials...you owe it to your dog and yourself to look a little deeper.
Also, I agree with Zoom, their website is at best missing some very crutial information, namely they talk about experience (good and bad) as they leave out education, and at worst incorrect in their methods. Dog training has evolved due to research and long term studies which remain a mystery to old school trainers who refuse to stay current. Many trainers can offer both experience and credentials...you owe it to your dog and yourself to look a little deeper.
Obviously you will make your own decision, but I would like to voice my opinion. I am not against a shock collar (why be P.C.?), I have used them on my dogs occasionally during training for hunting. But to use them on a pup is totally unfounded! In order for them to help, your dog must know all commands first. It really isn't for teaching it is for correcting already learned behavior. There are far too many people that misuse and abuse with the collar. If your trainer is talking shock collar before you even go to class......
I would rrrrrruuuuuuuuunnnnnnnn!! Not Walk the other way.
There is absolutely no reason for a pup that young to be trained in such a way. Do you want your pup to be confused and afraid to follow a command because he is unsure of the expected behavior? Do you want a submissive peeing dog? YOU WILL RUIN YOUR DOG........if you follow thru with this.
Find another Trainer.
By the way I will look at the website now.
I would rrrrrruuuuuuuuunnnnnnnn!! Not Walk the other way.
There is absolutely no reason for a pup that young to be trained in such a way. Do you want your pup to be confused and afraid to follow a command because he is unsure of the expected behavior? Do you want a submissive peeing dog? YOU WILL RUIN YOUR DOG........if you follow thru with this.
Find another Trainer.
By the way I will look at the website now.
Personally - NO!
Seen alot of debate over these collars recently, and they should be used as a LAST resort only.
A 13 week old puppy is at an age where it can be moulded and trained easily! What on earth is the point of using a shock collar when you can use positive reinforcement and treats??
If your dog was an adult that was off to kill livestock, and you have tried ALL methods available, then maybe, but the shock collar to BEGIN with??!
No, sorry, don't like the idea of that AT all. Seems like a quick fix to a problem that doesn't even EXIST yet.
Do NOT use one on a puppy, OR an adult dog unless there is a JUST cause and reason. Which usually there ISN'T!
Time, PATIENCE and treats is ALL you need to train a puppy successfully.
Seen alot of debate over these collars recently, and they should be used as a LAST resort only.
A 13 week old puppy is at an age where it can be moulded and trained easily! What on earth is the point of using a shock collar when you can use positive reinforcement and treats??
If your dog was an adult that was off to kill livestock, and you have tried ALL methods available, then maybe, but the shock collar to BEGIN with??!
No, sorry, don't like the idea of that AT all. Seems like a quick fix to a problem that doesn't even EXIST yet.
Do NOT use one on a puppy, OR an adult dog unless there is a JUST cause and reason. Which usually there ISN'T!
Time, PATIENCE and treats is ALL you need to train a puppy successfully.
I'm in agreement with the rest- RUN in the opposite direction. There is generally a *reason* for a business to keep their training information so vague, and it's usually not a good one. They should be absolutely forthcoming on their website about training methods, level of experience, etc.
You have an incredibly young dog at the moment. That mind is absolutely yours to mold- no bad habits have been set, and you can train your pup nearly anything you like with treats, praise, and trust. *Starting off* with a shock collar will at the very least confuse your dog, at the worst, make her unpredictable and skittish. Those who have mentioned before that this is a tool to work on previously learned behaviors are absolutely right- it is NOT how you go about *teaching* a young pup.
Wouldn't you rather build a strong bond with a confident pup that LOVES to work? I'll take a mistake here and there in exchange for a happy dog that trusts and understands me, over a robot dog whose main motivation is fear. Trust me, it's pretty easy to tell the difference between dogs that have been trained primarily with positive reinforcement, and those that have been trained primarily with harsh corrections. T
And popularity is no guarantee that the trainer is any good. Maybe they get results, but as I just explained above, it depends on what kind of results you would like to see.
At any rate, your results will be a lot more satisfying if it's YOU that does the training. I'd look for another class if I were you.
You have an incredibly young dog at the moment. That mind is absolutely yours to mold- no bad habits have been set, and you can train your pup nearly anything you like with treats, praise, and trust. *Starting off* with a shock collar will at the very least confuse your dog, at the worst, make her unpredictable and skittish. Those who have mentioned before that this is a tool to work on previously learned behaviors are absolutely right- it is NOT how you go about *teaching* a young pup.
Wouldn't you rather build a strong bond with a confident pup that LOVES to work? I'll take a mistake here and there in exchange for a happy dog that trusts and understands me, over a robot dog whose main motivation is fear. Trust me, it's pretty easy to tell the difference between dogs that have been trained primarily with positive reinforcement, and those that have been trained primarily with harsh corrections. T
And popularity is no guarantee that the trainer is any good. Maybe they get results, but as I just explained above, it depends on what kind of results you would like to see.
At any rate, your results will be a lot more satisfying if it's YOU that does the training. I'd look for another class if I were you.
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You've asked about this trainer before, and I'll repeat what I said then:
I visited the website you mentioned, that has the program you said you'd signed up for.
I can't say I'm impressed, however. They don't really tell you anything about their style of training. They make a lot of big claims and spend quite a bit of time putting down other training methods without really saying what they do. They guarantee a quick "fix" which tells me that they probably use some pretty intense (probably harsh) training methods while trying to say that they are kind trainers.
You say they're going to use a vibrating collar .. is it vibration only and not shock? In all honesty, people who use shock collars often call themselves "kind and force-free" trainers .. they don't acknowledge that the reason shock works is that it's uncomfortable and/or painful to the dog, and the dog learns through a desire to avoid consequences instead of learning through a desire to repeat behaviors. I'm not saying that there's not a place for corrections of some kind, but a training method BASED on corrections is not a good method in my eyes.
Clicker training is a wonderful method, whether you use a click to mark the behavior or your voice. It's based on understanding and observing your dog, seeing the behaviors you like and reinforcing those behaviors. It builds a very strong and trusting relationship between you and your dog - a better relationship than you will get if you train using corrective methods.
Oh - something else I noticed as I browsed through that site. They say that they will work with you until your dog is behaving, but then they also say that "you can expect to pay between $800 and $1700" for a good dog training program. That's a lot of money! A beginning class here goes for about $60. I guess if you're getting paid over $1000 for training a dog, you can offer some guarantees, especially if you're willing to use shock collars to get the effect you want quickly.
Good luck to you and your dog on this program. It isn't one I would use. ANY place that says you will have a dog working off-leash consistently in 2-3 lessons is either lying or they're using some pretty extreme and harsh methods. I could teach a dog to listen in that amount of time if I was willing to use pain to train. Personally I've taught training classes that, in just 3 weeks (meeting twice a week) all the students could run their dogs through an obstacle course off-leash, with all the other dogs and people in the room with them - and this was done using positive reinforcement (which the trainers on your site say can't be used to get reliable behaviors).
(From http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26598)
Using an electronic collar for training is not a kind method and certainly NOT something to use on a puppy! A puppy should be full of excitement and interest and exploring their world. The owner of the puppy should be gently guiding the puppy's mind towards the behaviors that are wanted, and discouraging the "bad" behaviors through non-reinforcement and occasional kind correction. As far as I'm concerned, use of an e-collar on a puppy is tantamount to animal abuse.
Are you promoting this website, or are you truly interested in people's opinions?? You didn't respond to the post I made on your last thread about this site.
If I were you I'd ask for my money back and then run to a better trainer.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
I visited the website you mentioned, that has the program you said you'd signed up for.
I can't say I'm impressed, however. They don't really tell you anything about their style of training. They make a lot of big claims and spend quite a bit of time putting down other training methods without really saying what they do. They guarantee a quick "fix" which tells me that they probably use some pretty intense (probably harsh) training methods while trying to say that they are kind trainers.
You say they're going to use a vibrating collar .. is it vibration only and not shock? In all honesty, people who use shock collars often call themselves "kind and force-free" trainers .. they don't acknowledge that the reason shock works is that it's uncomfortable and/or painful to the dog, and the dog learns through a desire to avoid consequences instead of learning through a desire to repeat behaviors. I'm not saying that there's not a place for corrections of some kind, but a training method BASED on corrections is not a good method in my eyes.
Clicker training is a wonderful method, whether you use a click to mark the behavior or your voice. It's based on understanding and observing your dog, seeing the behaviors you like and reinforcing those behaviors. It builds a very strong and trusting relationship between you and your dog - a better relationship than you will get if you train using corrective methods.
Oh - something else I noticed as I browsed through that site. They say that they will work with you until your dog is behaving, but then they also say that "you can expect to pay between $800 and $1700" for a good dog training program. That's a lot of money! A beginning class here goes for about $60. I guess if you're getting paid over $1000 for training a dog, you can offer some guarantees, especially if you're willing to use shock collars to get the effect you want quickly.
Good luck to you and your dog on this program. It isn't one I would use. ANY place that says you will have a dog working off-leash consistently in 2-3 lessons is either lying or they're using some pretty extreme and harsh methods. I could teach a dog to listen in that amount of time if I was willing to use pain to train. Personally I've taught training classes that, in just 3 weeks (meeting twice a week) all the students could run their dogs through an obstacle course off-leash, with all the other dogs and people in the room with them - and this was done using positive reinforcement (which the trainers on your site say can't be used to get reliable behaviors).
(From http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26598)
Using an electronic collar for training is not a kind method and certainly NOT something to use on a puppy! A puppy should be full of excitement and interest and exploring their world. The owner of the puppy should be gently guiding the puppy's mind towards the behaviors that are wanted, and discouraging the "bad" behaviors through non-reinforcement and occasional kind correction. As far as I'm concerned, use of an e-collar on a puppy is tantamount to animal abuse.
Are you promoting this website, or are you truly interested in people's opinions?? You didn't respond to the post I made on your last thread about this site.
If I were you I'd ask for my money back and then run to a better trainer.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
Forget about putting the e-collar on yourself to compare how the puppy will feel - you're an adult, you speak the same language as that 'trainer' and you knew the 'shock' was coming. Want a real test? Stick the thing on some 1 year old baby and see if you can teach the child to sit when 'stimulated'...
P.S. If you consider this an offensive suggestion, so is putting that thing on your puppy... There are SO many better ways to train a puppy - praise, treats, KINDNESS...
P.S. If you consider this an offensive suggestion, so is putting that thing on your puppy... There are SO many better ways to train a puppy - praise, treats, KINDNESS...
^Everyone's spoken my sentiments exactly. I believe a "shock collar" is for vices, already acquired skills or habits and you want to CHANGE the behavious. With a puppy there really isn't a behaviour yet because your still forming it!
Find another trainer. I hate the "methodical, technical" trainers that don't seem to really have a love for the animal or sport.
Find another trainer. I hate the "methodical, technical" trainers that don't seem to really have a love for the animal or sport.
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WOW, is all I have to say. Are you trying to break your dog? The old Koehler ways are gone, the dog does not have to be *broken* in oreder to be obedient.
My puppy is being trained in Schutzhund and I have not even thought about a electric collar for him. And if you look into schutzhund you will see that it is very structured and disciplined but praise and treats will work fine for me. You would be amazed at what a few treats and a "good boy" can do to train a dog. And your puppy is 13 weeks for God sake. 13 WEEKS!!! Does that not mean anything to you? Your dog has only been alive 13 WEEKS, how would you feel if you came into the world and by the time you were 5 months old your parents whooped you, everyday for doing something that you didnt know any better. For god sake you were only a little child, didn't know any better. That is the same situation with your dog. TEACH your dog what you want, forced compliance leaves a rocky relationship between owner and dog.
And people thought a prong was bad, sheesh!!!
My puppy is being trained in Schutzhund and I have not even thought about a electric collar for him. And if you look into schutzhund you will see that it is very structured and disciplined but praise and treats will work fine for me. You would be amazed at what a few treats and a "good boy" can do to train a dog. And your puppy is 13 weeks for God sake. 13 WEEKS!!! Does that not mean anything to you? Your dog has only been alive 13 WEEKS, how would you feel if you came into the world and by the time you were 5 months old your parents whooped you, everyday for doing something that you didnt know any better. For god sake you were only a little child, didn't know any better. That is the same situation with your dog. TEACH your dog what you want, forced compliance leaves a rocky relationship between owner and dog.
And people thought a prong was bad, sheesh!!!
That is way too young to even consider a shock collar. I have seen someone use a shock collar, on a fully grown, Schutzhund 3 GSD, and only for fine tuning his performance. I would never consider using one on a dog unless it was an extreme circumstance, like remote reinforcment while out in the field hunting or other applications in that genre.
It seems to me these people are all about quick results- they say they teach more in 3 lessons than most trainers do in 18. News for you- a 13 week old puppy has about a 10 minute attention span. You are better off taking the 18 weeks to each it and having a happier dog. A shock collar will freak out most dogs.
I agree with the others, run far from these people. A 13 week old puppy is not that hard to train if you are consistent, patient, and understanding.
It seems to me these people are all about quick results- they say they teach more in 3 lessons than most trainers do in 18. News for you- a 13 week old puppy has about a 10 minute attention span. You are better off taking the 18 weeks to each it and having a happier dog. A shock collar will freak out most dogs.
I agree with the others, run far from these people. A 13 week old puppy is not that hard to train if you are consistent, patient, and understanding.
My brother used an e-collar on his dog at 9 months, and it made for some really angry conversations at Christmas. I tried his collar, and could only bring myself to the "2" level. It goes up to "5," whatever that means.
Another huge problem with them is that many manufacturing errors are common with shock collars, and they do not accurately shock at consistent levels. You could seriously be hurting a dog - especially a puppy - with them.
My brother's dog is well-trained, but he's also incredibly submissive and is now showing problems - like urinating in corners of the house.
From my experience, I strongly advise against them. If you are having problems training once the puppy is older, re-consider then. It's much, much too young now.
Good luck finding a new trainer!
Another huge problem with them is that many manufacturing errors are common with shock collars, and they do not accurately shock at consistent levels. You could seriously be hurting a dog - especially a puppy - with them.
My brother's dog is well-trained, but he's also incredibly submissive and is now showing problems - like urinating in corners of the house.
From my experience, I strongly advise against them. If you are having problems training once the puppy is older, re-consider then. It's much, much too young now.
Good luck finding a new trainer!
If you want to find a good trainer, check out www.apdt.com.