Designer Dog Breeds

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krisykris

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#21
I'm not so against people that would like to make a hybrid dog into a standard breed such as the cock a poo which has been around far before the "designer" trend and the labradoodle. I think the people that are really committed to one day having their breed be recognized and do all the health and temperament testing aren't that bad.

The problem stems from people who are like, my dog is so cute i'll bred them, or i wonder what THIS would look like! and they breed irresponsibly
 

pancho

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#24
To the list of designer dogs we can add the doberman, border collie, australian cattle dog, catahoula, bull mastiff, rottweiler, boxer, and tosa. These are just a few of the designer dogs we have now because of some one decided to experiment with the breeds of dogs. Not all experiments worked out and many of the designer dogs people are thinking up today will not work out, but who knows, one of them may become as popular as the doberman.
 

Laurelin

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#25
To the list of designer dogs we can add the doberman, border collie, australian cattle dog, catahoula, bull mastiff, rottweiler, boxer, and tosa. These are just a few of the designer dogs we have now because of some one decided to experiment with the breeds of dogs. Not all experiments worked out and many of the designer dogs people are thinking up today will not work out, but who knows, one of them may become as popular as the doberman.
No, those were different. Those were bred with working in mind or a standard. They were not bred willy nilly just to line the breeder's pockets with as much money as possible. These designers won't be a breed because the breeders have no goal. There isn't a way to make a breed by creating F1 generation mutts over and over again.

The only 'designer' dogs I can ever see possibly becoming a breed are the original Australian labradoodles and cockapoos. Each of those crosses actually have fanciers working to create a breed. They actually health test, breed multiple generations, and breed towards a goal. I do not consider them in the same category as your average designer breeder. But the responsible breeders of these crosses are constantly weighed down by fad breeders.
 

Zoom

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#30
Otherwise known as a Mini Rottweiler... :D

Nah, that's Aubrey, the oh so adorable beagle/Rottie/??? mix my ex and I picked up from a local shelter a year ago.

I just like to mess with people I run into who go on and on about their DD and how much they paid for it, etc. I tell them my dog is extremely rare, in fact, there are probably only 5-8 of them in the world, but she is the only one that I know of for sure. ;)
 

pancho

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#31
No, those were different. Those were bred with working in mind or a standard. They were not bred willy nilly just to line the breeder's pockets with as much money as possible. These designers won't be a breed because the breeders have no goal. There isn't a way to make a breed by creating F1 generation mutts over and over again.

The only 'designer' dogs I can ever see possibly becoming a breed are the original Australian labradoodles and cockapoos. Each of those crosses actually have fanciers working to create a breed. They actually health test, breed multiple generations, and breed towards a goal. I do not consider them in the same category as your average designer breeder. But the responsible breeders of these crosses are constantly weighed down by fad breeders.
Do you think these dogs were the only dog breeding expermenting going on at that time? There were probably many that never developed that we never heard of. Some of the breeds were developed for a certain job, still designer dogs. Some were developed just by accident, they let many different dog breeds mix then picked out the type that they wanted. They were all just mixed breeds before someone took the time to breed them true to type. Maybe some of the newer designer dogs will be developed into a true breeding dog.
Check out the airdale, designer dog, the bull terrier, definately a designer dog, the jack russell, does it even have a standard? The manchester terrier, the boston terrier, the minature pinscher, the english bulldog, and just about any of the toy breeds.
They all were just some idea somebody had or the result of mixing several breeds without anything in mind.
 

Laurelin

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#32
Do you think these dogs were the only dog breeding expermenting going on at that time? There were probably many that never developed that we never heard of. Some of the breeds were developed for a certain job, still designer dogs. Some were developed just by accident, they let many different dog breeds mix then picked out the type that they wanted. They were all just mixed breeds before someone took the time to breed them true to type. Maybe some of the newer designer dogs will be developed into a true breeding dog.
Check out the airdale, designer dog, the bull terrier, definately a designer dog, the jack russell, does it even have a standard? The manchester terrier, the boston terrier, the minature pinscher, the english bulldog, and just about any of the toy breeds.
They all were just some idea somebody had or the result of mixing several breeds without anything in mind.
Problem A is bolded, Designer mixes aren't being bred true to type.

And hm, they had nothing in mind?

The Airedale is the largest of all terriers. This breed's history can be traced back to the mid-nineteenth century in Britain, where men started breeding for certain characteristics. They wanted a dog that was smart, able to "out think" its prey. There were hunters who wanted to have a dog that could follow scent well, and be able to swim in the rivers where the object of the hunt sometimes hid. There was a demand from farmers who wanted a dog that could control the vermin that were destroying his crops. They also wanted a strong guard dog to protect their families, its disposition had to be "sweet" towards family, yet aloof with strangers.
The Bull Terrier is a British breed of dog. Its predecessors were developed for the purposes of pit fighting, in the middle of the 19th century. The "sporting enthusiasts" of that time loved to bet on dog fights, bull fights, bear fights, etc. Some of them decided to mate two formidable breeds of dog, the Bull Dog and the Black and Tan Terrier (which is now extinct). They wanted to combine the Bull Dog's tenacity, courage and high threshold of pain, with the terrier's lightening speed, agility and unsurpassed ratting (eg.,killing) instinct. What resulted was an extremely rugged dog, well suited for pit fighting, which is still popular in parts of the world to this day.
Boston terrier
As time passed, these dogs were referred to as stableman's or the barber's dog. The reason being that the employees of the very wealthy (most centered around Breed's Hill of Boston), would get together to gossip, drink, and pass the time at the local tavern. Some of these employees had access to their employer's purebred dogs. These employees would borrow their employer's dogs and breed them to other dogs, and arrange for the puppies to "find new homes". The offspring would end up in the fighting pits, either as young pups to demonstrate their "courage", or as older dogs, to actually fight other dogs, rats, bulls, etc. What is interesting is that these breedings were not foolish, nor frivolous. These people were actually looking for certain qualities in the dogs that they were breeding.
Jack Russells still have certain traits in mind though no real standard in a traditional sense

Everything about the Jack Russell has fox hunting in mind .... coloring, conformation, character, and intelligence. The body is compact, of totally balanced proportions, the shoulders clean, the legs straight, and most importantly, a small chest (easily spannable by average size hands at the widest part behind the shoulders). The Jack Russell must also be totally flexible, allowing him to maneuver underground. This conformation allows the terrier to follow his quarry down narrow earths. The fox is a good model for the Jack Russell-where the fox can go, so must the terrier. Although originally bred for fox hunting, the Jack Russell is a versatile working terrier to a variety of quarry including red and grey fox, raccoon and woodchuck.
I never see any breeds that say they were bred because they'd be oh so cute and make the breeder lots of money. I've already excluded what I feel to be the responsible 'designer' breeders. The rest are in it for the money and no other reason. No desire to create a new breed. They are the result of a ridiculous fad that further promotes irresponsible breeding.
 

Fran27

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#33
Pancho, I've read those non-arguments so often it's getting really old. Frankly, I think people who really think you can compare current breeds to 'designer dogs' need to be educated... period. Just tired of the same old nonsense arguments. Laurelin has more patience than me.

About dogbreedinfo, I always take their information and pictures very cautiously. I could send a pick of my puppy mill golden retriever, and he wouldn't represent at all what a golden retriever is supposed to look like (although I find him pretty handsome and I have no clue how close to the standard he is).

I'm quite sure most of those pics are just some people's educated (or uneducated) guesses when it comes to the breeds. I agree that the afghan/BC looks like a lab/bc mix more than anything (and like Tips, lol).
 

pancho

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#34
Pancho, I've read those non-arguments so often it's getting really old. Frankly, I think people who really think you can compare current breeds to 'designer dogs' need to be educated... period. Just tired of the same old nonsense arguments. Laurelin has more patience than me.

About dogbreedinfo, I always take their information and pictures very cautiously. I could send a pick of my puppy mill golden retriever, and he wouldn't represent at all what a golden retriever is supposed to look like (although I find him pretty handsome and I have no clue how close to the standard he is).

I'm quite sure most of those pics are just some people's educated (or uneducated) guesses when it comes to the breeds. I agree that the afghan/BC looks like a lab/bc mix more than anything (and like Tips, lol).
Think about it a little. Do you think the original english bulldog looked like the modern day dog, how about the bull terrier. They have changed quite a bit in the last 20-30 years. And not for the better. They are just another designer dog. Both breeds are just lap dogs now. Much like the designer dogs except they for the most part breed true. Check the prices on either breed. The breeders are not thinking about improving the breed. If that was so you would see a different shape dog.
It is possible some of the modern designer dogs could someday become a breed. When the first cross made to produce the doberman it was just a crossbred dog, it looked nothing like the dog of today. Some of the breeds we have today do not always produce true.
What would be the difference in someone taking a modern day designer dog and developing a breed that will breed true, what difference is that from the way many dog breeds were developed?
It might help to study the evolution of the dog and dog breeds. Most were just accidents from crossbred breedings. The person liked what he saw and bred for that type. Every breed was not developed for a special job. Most of the people who developed the breeds did not know what the dog would excell at when they bred.
The person who thinks there will not be any more dog breeds developed is very short sighted. The only way to develop these new breeds is to cross, there has to be a starting point. The people with imigination will continue to develop different breeds, those without will just take what they happen to find.
 

StillandSilent

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#35
I sometimes tell people that Radar is a rare North Carolina Minkling. He is probably some sort of poodle/terrier mix. I have actually had people ask where they can get one. Hopefully nowhere, as he is neutered, but I am sure there is some member of his family out there reproducing as spay and neuter is not a common thing here.
 

tempura tantrum

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#36
Lovely post Laurelin- EXACTLY!

Problem A is bolded, Designer mixes aren't being bred true to type.
This is right on- and if it's up to the people breeding these dogs THEY NEVER WILL BE. Once the dogs are "just another breed," there's no more "hybrid vigor" (which doesn't exist ANYWAY- but makes a great selling point to the uninformed), to brag about. People who have designer dogs, cite again and again, the "fact" that their dogs MUST be healthier because they're mixes. Nevermind that in most cases an F1 cross from two poor examples of each breed (let's face it, no one in their right mind is going to sell a fabulous breed example with breeding rights to someone breeding DDs and not health testing), isn't going to be better off than a purebred dog that is the product of GENERATIONS of pedigree research and health testing.

So do you think the DD breeders are REAAAALLY all that interested in creating typey animals that breed true? I certainly don't. They would effectively KILL their main selling point.

In contrast, people actually interested in creating a true BREED for a REASON (no...money doesn't count ;) ), aren't looking at it that way. For one, they certainly don't sell their F1s for exorbitant prices and tell everyone who's getting one that it's an adorable "Cuteterrier," which aside from being hypoallergenic, can also cure cancer.

Furthermore, they have a true standard in place- one that everyone developing the breed AGREES UPON. Part of the mess with the American Labradoodle is that there is no REAL standard- the one the "parent club" has is absolutely laughable, and there doesn't seem to be a particularly large faction of people interested in actually developing that standard and creating a breed. If there was...it would've been done by now.

Case in point- Pancho- look up Silken Windhounds. INCREDIBLY new breed, yet already, their stock is breeding TRUE, and they're already having specialty shows. Despite all of this the development of this breed occured FAR later than that of American Labradoodles or Cockapoos. Breeders saw a niche for a medium-sized COATED sighthound. One that would be able to resist cooler temperatures. There simply wasn't a breed in existence that quite fit that bill, so lo-and-behold, interested parties got together, created and AGREED upon a standard, and started a parent club. Done.

Point is, I don't think there's anyone on this board that disagrees with the CREATION of a new breed- especially if it fills a niche previously unfilled by other breeds. What we DO take issue with is the WAY people go about it, or the MISINFORMATION people spew about "designer dogs." They market mixed breed dogs AS breeds, and then go on to say that they're healthier, smarter, hypoallergenic, etc. etc. when it's point blank not true. They neglect genetic testing because "mixed breeds don't get genetic health problems," and then sell their dogs for a couple thousand dollars more than anything you'd have to pay for a purebred from a top show or working kennel. Yet there's no health testing, the likelihood that they are using a stud outside of their breeding program is basically nil, the dogs can't be shown, they aren't worked in any venue...so you KNOW the money isn't going back into the program. Where is it going? STRAIGHT INTO THEIR POCKETS.

THAT is what we have a problem with.
 

pancho

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#37
Problem A is bolded, Designer mixes aren't being bred true to type.

And hm, they had nothing in mind?





Boston terrier


Jack Russells still have certain traits in mind though no real standard in a traditional sense



I never see any breeds that say they were bred because they'd be oh so cute and make the breeder lots of money. I've already excluded what I feel to be the responsible 'designer' breeders. The rest are in it for the money and no other reason. No desire to create a new breed. They are the result of a ridiculous fad that further promotes irresponsible breeding.
Please study the dog breeds a little more than just a short story. You will see the short history on the boston terrier and the bull terrier you posted is from one of those books written by a person who does not know the history just copys what some other writer has published. Usually they will have many different books about different breeds, none researched. They are not very accurate.
The designer dogs are not bred true to type, they are just the F1 cross, the beginning. Each breed had to start from a first cross. None bred true after the first cross. Most of the designer dogs will soon be forgotten as people will not work out a standard. There will probably be a few that will be developed. That is the way all breeds have come to be the dog breeds of today.
 

tempura tantrum

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#38
The designer dogs are not bred true to type, they are just the F1 cross, the beginning. Each breed had to start from a first cross. None bred true after the first cross.
This is what we've all been saying.

The most obvious difference between DD breeders and those who actually wish to create a new breed is the fact that DD breeders do not WANT to move beyond F1 or F2 generations. In that sense DD breeders and those who are actively creating a new BREED are VERY different.

Of course none of the F1 crosses of say "Russian Terriers" or "Silken Windhounds" bred true. The diffrence is the creators didn't just go-

"Oh, looks good. Now slap a cute name on it and start selling!" They continued breeding, tweaking what they didn't like until they created animals that made good representations of what they wanted in a breed.
 

happyhound

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#40
Does this Lab/Pointer mix look anything like either breed to you guys? Doesn't look it to me.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/pointinglab.htm

A "Pointing Lab" is actually NOT a Lab/Pointer cross. It is a purebred Lab bred to have the pointing instinct although their pointing isn't nearly as obvious and intense (from what I've read/seen--I could be wrong) as a pointer.

American Pointing Lab Assoc.

Someone at DogBreedInfo.com must have heard "Pointing Lab" and figured it was a mix...
 
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