Circumcision as a criminal act

[Romy]

The way I looked at it was, it's not my body it's his. Circumcision can't be undone once it's done, but it can always be done later if he chooses or it becomes medically necessary.

Puppydog, the reason Americans jump to the worst when they hear female circumcision is because of anti circumcision advocates like Waris Dirie who put their life stories in Reader's Digest. It's what I think of, and in those stories it's not teen girls consenting to it and having it done in a clean professional manner. It's babies and small children being horribly mutilated with rusty razors. I don't think it should ever be done on children, even in a clean sterile environment by medical professionals. Mainly because children can't give consent. At least a teen has a better sense of what they're consenting to.

 

[puppydog]

Agreed Romy. The core point for me is, its not the parents penis. How dare the parents decide to remove a part of the penis that will forever alter a child's self perception?

 

[Greenmagick]

Agreed Romy. The core point for me is, its not the parents penis. How dare the parents decide to remove a part of the penis that will forever alter a child's self perception?

and sex life.

The men I have discussed this with, some have a lot of anger and frustration with having something taken away from them. Also, its worse for the men who have actual problems from their circs. If they are not estimated right, the amount to cut off, or the penis is large, etc they can end up ith a tight circ that causes pain, sometimes extreme, during every erection.

 

[momto8]

All my boys were done, they all received pain meds during and after our doctor did it ( same doctor delivered all 5 of my children). I didn't know much about it when I had it done, i was just a teenager. But now, after watching a friends little boy for her that was not done, not by choice but buy medical insurance issues I'd rather have it done. They had her son done older, his choice and he kept having medical issues with it and it was so painful, way more painful that an infant If I were ever to have another baby and it was a boy I would do it again.

 

[SevenSins]

Agreed Romy. The core point for me is, its not the parents penis. How dare the parents decide to remove a part of the penis that will forever alter a child's self perception?

What really tugs my chain...erm, so to speak...are the mothers who project their own personal preferences in a sex partner onto their sons. Pardon me for being graphic, but unless that mother is planning to have sex with her son, what do their pleasurable sexual experiences (and, again, most women in the US have never had anything to compare to and are making broad assumptions) have to do with whether their child is cut or not?

Not a single one of the women I've been with has ever been disgusted over an uncircumcised penis - #247 on the list of things nobody here ever wanted to know about Seven, and now back to your regularly scheduled program - Not one, even the ones who admitted that they had always assumed they would be. I'd say at least 2/3 of those women, if not more, had never seen one outside of pictures on the internet; in other news, shall we start a topic on debunking the whole "women don't look at porn" myth or did the 50 Shades craze cover that one? :lol-sign:

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

They allowed hooded weans in porn?


(I jest, I jest)

 

[Greenmagick]

Ok, I also dont buy its less painful for newborns. They just cant vocalize it or "remember" it in actual terms...but I can guarantee it hurts just as much healing on newborns as it does older boys or men (and then you add putting a diaper on top of it with urine hitting it...uhm, can you say OUCH!)

It DOES affect newborns....most breastfeeding books/sites/blogs etc will address it as often after a circ the baby is upset and nursing can become difficult as they are stressed.

 

[Danefied]

All my boys were done, they all received pain meds during and after our doctor did it ( same doctor delivered all 5 of my children). I didn't know much about it when I had it done, i was just a teenager. But now, after watching a friends little boy for her that was not done, not by choice but buy medical insurance issues I'd rather have it done. They had her son done older, his choice and he kept having medical issues with it and it was so painful, way more painful that an infant If I were ever to have another baby and it was a boy I would do it again.

To me that’s an argument AGAINST circumcision!
May I ask how old the boy was when he did have it done?

 

[Greenmagick]

And just out of curiousity, for those who know many people who had to get their sons done later for medical issues...how many were retracted as infants (which tears it and causes an injury so yes, ripe for infection), how many got a second opinion by a dr who understands foreskin and doesnt view it as the problem?

As more and more boys are left intact it will get better here, but in the meantime, you have to be vigilant with intact boys....many drs are still retracting them to check! I have a friend who actually slapped a dr's hand away. She felt awful and apologized to him but it happened fast and she had to protect her son....the doctor had no idea to NOT retract the foreskin.

 

[Xandra]

Ok, I also dont buy its less painful for newborns. They just cant vocalize it or "remember" it in actual terms...but I can guarantee it hurts just as much healing on newborns as it does older boys or men (and then you add putting a diaper on top of it with urine hitting it...uhm, can you say OUCH!)

what do you mean they can't vocalize it??? I know less about babies than I do about junebugs but my experience has been that they wail and wail (and wail!!) if they don't like the way things are going.

 

[Greenmagick]

what do you mean they can't vocalize it??? I know less about babies than I do about junebugs but my experience has been that they wail and wail (and wail!!) if they don't like the way things are going.

I mean they cant say ouch, my penis hurts. They cry a lot as newborns and EVERYTHING is new and overwhelming. I shouldve have said explained it (and yes, many newborn boys do cry a lot more healing from circs but there is really no way to measure as they are a newborn, you have no idea what "normal" is)

 

[SevenSins]

what do you mean they can't vocalize it??? I know less about babies than I do about junebugs but my experience has been that they wail and wail (and wail!!) if they don't like the way things are going.

Like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PTtmOwqJF8&feature=related

 

[Xandra]

I mean they cant say ouch, my penis hurts. They cry a lot as newborns and EVERYTHING is new and overwhelming. I shouldve have said explained it (and yes, many newborn boys do cry a lot more healing from circs but there is really no way to measure as they are a newborn, you have no idea what "normal" is)

Ahh okay that makes a lot of sense.

 

[Miakoda]

I have to take offense that all mothers and doctors of uncircumcised boys forcibly retract the foreskin out of ignorance. I never once did, nor would I have. My doctor explained it all anyway. Give some people credit.

The whole "I'm against and I'm right because I have been shown the truth, and you're for it just because you're ignorant and perverted" argument is only going to make people ignore you or walk away from you in disgust. You want respect and for people to hear you out? Then offer the same courtesy. You're quick to discount and try to disprove studies proving opposite of your belief, yet you want the opposition to blindly accept your reasoning and the findings of your supportive studies.

I like to take the middle ground and educate myself from all sides. Then I make my own educated decision. But don't make assumptions about why i made that choice.

And, again, it baffles me that I would have the ok to have had Cole aborted through a partial-birth abortion, but those people would want me brought up on criminal charges fir having him circumcised. If the boy has the right to make decisions about his own body, then ask him if he'd like to live or die instead of making that choice for him.

But then again, I'm just some ignorant fool who cut off my son 's foreskin because I'm too dumb to know any better, as well as being to preoccupied about him in a sexual nature.

The end.

 

[Greenmagick]

who said ALL mother's retract or ALL doctors retract?

 

[Miakoda]

Oh, and just out of curiosity, my brother and sister had my niece go through plastic surgery to correct her cleft left, which was also pulling down the side of her nose and yet. She was three at the time of her surgery. Should parents be forced to forgo these procedures for their children, and instead be forced to leave such decisions up to the children for when they're old enough to consciously make them? Should no non-life threatening birth defects be treated at the consent of parents? Same basic principle: make a painful choice based on parents' wishes than at the choice of the child.

 

[SevenSins]

I have to take offense that all mothers and doctors of uncircumcised boys forcibly retract the foreskin out of ignorance. I never once did, nor would I have. My doctor explained it all anyway. Give some people credit.

Don't recall anyone saying ALL mothers do it.

And, again, it baffles me that I would have the ok to have had Cole aborted through a partial-birth abortion, but those people would want me brought up on criminal charges fir having him circumcised. If the boy has the right to make decisions about his own body, then ask him if he'd like to live or die instead of making that choice for him.

Just to clarify, are we asking the now-born baby, or the aborted fetus that didn't have the mental or emotional capacity at the stage in which it was aborted to understand that it was even alive to begin with?

I'm just some ignorant fool who cut off my son 's foreskin because I'm too dumb to know any better

I'm not the one who said it this time.

 

[SevenSins]

Oh, and just out of curiosity, my brother and sister had my niece go through plastic surgery to correct her cleft left, which was also pulling down the side of her nose and yet. She was three at the time of her surgery. Should parents be forced to forgo these procedures for their children, and instead be forced to leave such decisions up to the children for when they're old enough to consciously make them? Should no non-life threatening birth defects be treated at the consent of parents? Same basic principle: make a painful choice based on parents' wishes than at the choice of the child.

So...what does repairing a birth defect to allow a child to eat, speak and breathe correctly (you know, breathing, speaking and eating being natural human functions) have to do with removing an important part of a male child's sexual organs (you know, sex for pleasure being a natural part of human function)?

 

[Greenmagick]

Yes, repairing a birth defect (that often is necessary to correct to eat, breathe normally etc) is exactly the same as cutting off an IMPORTANT functional part of the body....

 

[Danefied]

Oh, and just out of curiosity, my brother and sister had my niece go through plastic surgery to correct her cleft left, which was also pulling down the side of her nose and yet. She was three at the time of her surgery. Should parents be forced to forgo these procedures for their children, and instead be forced to leave such decisions up to the children for when they're old enough to consciously make them? Should no non-life threatening birth defects be treated at the consent of parents? Same basic principle: make a painful choice based on parents' wishes than at the choice of the child.

A foreskin is not a birth defect.