Choosing a breed to raise and train as service dogs

[Saeleofu]

This is a looooong way off, but apparently I'm feeling chatty tonight (probably because I'm trilled to have found this place!), and I'm bored, so I figured I'd post it for discussion.


I eventually hope to have a service dog school, specifically training SDs for adults on the autism spectrum. Even if that never happens, I do plan to breed dogs and train them privately as service dogs (I know a few people who do this - one breeds chessies).

I am working on figuring out what breed(s) to use. My first choice, as it stands, is the standard poodle. If I do not get an SD from a program before I go of to Bergin U next fall, I do plan to get a standard poodle puppy and train it to be my service dog. By the time I am done with school (2 to 3 years for master's) I ought to have a working service dog.

Another option I am looking at are Australian labradoodles (which are really a breed in Australia, not mixes like the "doodles" and such are here). They are expensive though, and would have to be imported (unless I move to Australia, which is actually a possibility).

There are other breeds I am considering, but those are the top ones. I really would prefer not to use goldens or labs as I personally am not fond of them, but at the end of the day all that really matters is that it's a healthy, working service dog. I do know of a lab breeder that I would get foundation stock from if I went with labs, however; same goes for great danes, I know exactly what breeder I'd go to.

The biggest issue is size. Most autistics need at least some balance support or guide work (or both), and that typically requires a larger dog. If I were to go with poods, it would have to be larger standard poodles, as opposed to those that just barely meet the size for a standard poodle.

Anyway, it'll be years before I really use this information and make a decision, but it doesn't hurt to get the ideas flowing

 

[colliewog]

Smooth Collies? They've shown an ability to work as guide dogs and service dogs.

 

[FoxyWench]

standard poodles make Amazing service dogs all around, and being they are a "sensitive" breed they make great service dogs for that kind of work.
i think pure well bred standards would be a great choice

i think id stay away from the labradoodles, they were origioanlly bred to be service dogs, but it never panned out even in australia, im not sure one person could thrive where a large group of highly dedicated and very experienced people didnt quite make it...

ive seen danes as mobitlity assistance, but before 2 yrs old being slow growers, they realy shoudlnt have any kind of strain on the structure, so it would depending on what age youd be planning on sending dogs out at...

dont rule out some of the medium-large breeds too, like the collie

my biggest suggestion to you would be to look up the SERVICES an autism dog provides, do you need a dog whos going to be more independtant and not feed into temper tantrums and panic attacks, or do you need an affectionate dog who will smother them with positive reinforcment ect.
make a list of all the services an autism dog would be likely to need to perform and figure out what kind of personally traits a dog persforming those services would need...then search breeds based on that.

i do like the idea of standards though, as a breed on a whole they have the makings of a perfect service dog, and the idea to use them to create "the perfect" guid dog was a good one...but i always wondered why standard poodles as a while get passed up on the service dog route, you dont see many school trained standards and theres absolutly no reason for it, the breed is perfect for service dog work.

 

[Renee750il]

Strange as it might sound, you might look at Aussies, too.

 

[Romy]

The reason standards aren't used as often as labs and goldens is because they are a very "one person" type of dog, and have a tendency to get guardy of their handlers personal space, i.e. hard staring, lip lifting when someone enters their bubble. It is a lot easier to train a friendly accepting dog to ignore people than it is to train an aloof guardy dog to accept every single person it encounters, which is what a service dog must do.

I read somewhere that the success rate for standard poodles bred specifically for service dog work was 1/12, where it was more like 1/6 for labradoodles, which is really pretty significant. That was the main reason for creating labradoodles, to try and bring that hypoallergenic coat into a dog that was more accepting of the presence of strangers.

Collies would be an excellent choice. They are very handler oriented, and yet they are grounded and emotionally independent. They adapt easily to pretty much any situation. Some of the herding breeds tend to mirror their handlers emotions (GSDs come to mind) I don't know if aussies do this or not, but it's something to think about. Then again, they are all individuals and I'm sure there are GSDs out there with the correct temperaments for PSD work, but I wouldn't consider it the norm.

I use a borzoi as my PSD, and for balance assist among other things. He has the perfect temperament for it, and his breeder is piloting a program to train borzois to assist disabled veterans with PTSD and other problems. The right borzoi can make a very excellent SD. They have the height you are looking for, and their lifespan is typically 12-14 years.

 

[lizzybeth727]

i think id stay away from the labradoodles, they were origioanlly bred to be service dogs, but it never panned out even in australia, im not sure one person could thrive where a large group of highly dedicated and very experienced people didnt quite make it...

There are actually many organizations that use labradoodles as SDs. I personally don't know their success rate versus the traditional labs, but I do know that they're out there. And there are certainly more labradoodles than poodles.

As far as balance support dogs, it's extremely difficult to find one that's the right size AND the right temperment.... They have to be extremely laid-back and tempermentally stable enough that you KNOW they're NEVER EVER going to chase anything, or lunge for anything, or jump on their person. A lot of organizations use a lot of punishment to train these dogs, because they basically want the dog to be shut down (though obviously they won't tell you that). The organization I work for trains balance dogs for people with parkinson's, MS, and other similar disabilities, but we do not train autism dogs, so I don't really know what you'd be looking for there.

As part of your research before you do this, I'd suggest going to as many service dog organizations as you can, and spend time with their dogs. I'm not talking about watching the training - training is the easy part! - I mean, just visit with the dogs to get a solid feel for what kind of temperment you're looking for. My organization gets all of our dogs from shelters and rescues, and we have an extensive evaluation program for both in the shelter and for several months after we start training. I talk to people in the rescue community all the time who have read about the dogs that we are looking for, but even then they have a hard time understanding until they see some of our dogs.

Yesterday I evaluated two 1-year-old labs that a couple had rescued as 8-week-old puppies and raised with the goal in mind that they would donate the dogs to be service dogs. I don't know how much research they had done previously to learn how to raise the puppies, but basically they had done very little "right;" not only did the dogs bomb our evaluation, but the couple is also going to have a really difficult time adopting them out to anyone because they are very unstable. So it's EXTREMELY important that you've done TONS of research before starting this!!

If you're interested, I can PM you a few organizations that I know personally, it'd give you a good starting point.

 

[Saeleofu]

True Australian labradoodles have been successful service dogs. No, they are not as common as labs and goldens, but they are out there. Romy is right - they were originally bred to be hypoallergenic for a person in Hawaii who needed a guide dog but her husband was severely allergic to dogs. Poodles were hypoallergenic for him, but there were problems finding a poodle with a suitable temperament and such.

As far as tasks for autistics go, I am intimately acquainted with what we need. Of course it will vary from person to person, but in general, between myself and about 5 other people on the spectrum that have/need/want SDs, most of our tasks are the same.

I hadn't thought of smooth collies, but that is an option too. I will look more into them.

I personally love Aussies, my concern with them would be height, but they could potentially work too.

Borzois could be an option too. I have worked with a few briefly, and they seemed like wonderful dogs. I do happen to know a good breeder around here too.

 

[lizzybeth727]

True Australian labradoodles have been successful service dogs.

Yes, so are lab/poodle mixes. I know of one organization that uses 3/4 poodle, 1/4 lab mixes - "labradoodledoodles." :lol-sign:

I also know of several organizations that use lab/golden crosses to get the large balance dogs.

I recently trained a smooth collie as a service dog, she's one of the best dogs I've gotten to train. Don't know if it's true of all collies, but she in particular needs a very consistent handler (she tends to take the "easy way out" always!), and sometimes barks in public in large crowds - overstimulation/excitement. Of course it's easy for trainers to handle her, but we had to find just the right recipient to work with her. The problem you might find with collies, though, is their size - this dog was on the small size to be a service dog, and there was no way she'd ever work as a balance/support dog. I know there's a lot of variation in size for collies, though, and I have met some that would be tall enough (though IMO they were extremely out of standard).

We've also used a few aussies, and I'm evaluating another one next week (fingers crossed!).

Labs haven't been mentioned, and I know you said that you don't like them.... but I think you really should consider them. They're the most used breed and the easiest to find. There's also a huge variation amongst the breed for temperment; obviously you don't want a true field lab, but there are certainly tons of "pet" labs that make beautiful service dogs. In my organization about 75% of our SDs are labs or mixes.... course it helps that they're also the most common breed in shelters.

 

[Romy]

Lizzy, aren't there harnesses that can be used for balance assist that also raise the dog's height? There is a guy I go to church with who has uses a service dog and he has a harness like this one:

He has a medium sized golden, she's about 10 inches too short for him to use as balance assist without equipment, but I see him use that type of harness to help him keep his balance, and it makes up for her lack of height.

 

[lizzybeth727]

Yes, and we have to use those as well. If we waited for a 30" dog to come along in a shelter with the correct temperment, we'd NEVER have a balance dog.

The problem is there's no studies done at all to determine the physical stress put on the dog when he's wearing a tall harness; it's all advanced physics, I think! It also depends on what the person needs... do they put a lot of weight straight down on the dog when they walk, like a cane; do they need more lateral balance - left and right - or more balance forward and backward; do they put pressure on the dog on every step, or is it only occasionally; etc. What my organization has determined that we're comfortable with, is that the handle of the harness must come no higher than 6" above the dog's shoulders. Of the organizations that train balance dogs, the tallest handle I've heard of is 8", though most use 6" or less. The majority of people's arms hang the same distance from the floor, there's usually only an inch or two variation among average people (go ahead, measure yourselves from wrist to floor!), so most of our balance dogs need to be 26" or more at the shoulder. As agility people know, and most of the rest of us can imagine, finding dogs that tall is no easy task. We've had several golden retrievers, one or two labs, and a st.bernard mix, that I know of.

Of course you can buy harness online that have handles up to 12" (possibly more), but then there's still the question of whether that tall of a handle would be safe for an organization like ours - where we don't know 100% of the time how the weight is being put on the dog - and what the long-term effects on the dog would be.

Because there are so many unknowns, and because balance dogs are so difficult for us to find in shelters, our organization has actually stopped taking applicants for balance dogs. Our service dogs are trained to brace people after a fall, pull them out of chairs, and do other body positioning tasks, but we will not use dogs to balance people while they are walking.

 

[Saeleofu]

I didn't mean to say that the lab/poodle mixes weren't successful too, as they have been. I know a few people with poodle mixes as SDs.

The problem you might find with collies, though, is their size - this dog was on the small size to be a service dog, and there was no way she'd ever work as a balance/support dog. I know there's a lot of variation in size for collies, though, and I have met some that would be tall enough (though IMO they were extremely out of standard).

That's a potential problem with poodles, too. We had a standard come in to the clinic the other day, and though she did meet the height requirement to be a standard poodle, it would still be too short/small for what I envision theses service dogs doing.

As far as those harnesses above - they do raise the height of the dog, but you have to be careful - they are made for leaning on the dog, and the longer the handle is, the more strain it puts on the dog. They are useful for big dogs that just aren't quite tall enough, but to extend the height of a dog that's way too short would be inappropriate. Ten inches isn't very long, and so in that case it probably works very well. Most of the balance issues with autism tend to not be ones where you need to actually lean on the dog, but something where a bridge handle to keep forward movement going (similar to a guide harness) would be helpful. Honestly there would be more modified guide tasks than actual balance tasks, but I know I would find balance work to be useful.

I do plan to work with a lot of programs in the next 3 years or so while I'm at school, and then after that I wouldn't jump into my own program straight away, but ideally work with another program for a while to learn the real ins and outs of having a school. The last thing I would want to do is go into something like this unprepared.

Thanks for everyone's input so far

 

[Saeleofu]

do they need more lateral balance - left and right - or more balance forward and backward;

That is exactly what I was trying to get at. It's not leaning on the dog constantly, but more the dog pulling to some degree to help start, stop, change direction, keep from tipping over, etc, and then bracing for falls sometimes.

 

[Romy]

If I was you I'd also look at gordon setters. The one gordon I know personally is one of the only non-service dogs I'm acquainted with that would have made a very good service dog. He just has a perfect temperament, with perfect sweetness, and love, and focus. He's smart, and wants very badly to please. He's also large and strong. He's extremely stable and balanced. He's always around lots of people and different kinds of animals, with zero aggression, fear or prey drive. He makes me think of a very intelligent ideal golden retriever. I have no idea how typical that temperament is for the breed, but you may want to meet some from different lines and see if what they are producing fits the standards for a service animal.

Their standard says the upper height limit is 27 inches, which is a decent height. You can find dogs over and under sized, so might be able to find one larger. I'm 5'9" and my hip is 30" off the ground, my borzoi is 30" at the shoulder.

I guess others to go out and meet/research might be bernese mt. dogs, leonbergers, and newfoundlands. Newfs might be a bit large and drooly, not too sure. Leos and berners in my experience tend to be pretty laid back and well adjusted, without much prey drive. There's a lady I know who is training a St. Bernard to be an autism dog, it will be interesting to see how that works out. I'd be concerned about the lifespan, but I guess time will tell.

 

[Saeleofu]

Oh, I haven't thought of Gordons! See, you guys have some good ideas

I know a couple newfies that are working service dogs, but I think they're probably too big for the average person to handle as far as making it "invisible" in public. Same with great danes and St. bernards, plus adding in the potential lifespan issue makes them much lower on my list.

If I choose a dog that has variable height, I may have to deliberately breed them to be larger than the breed standards. They wouldn't likely be competing in conformation anyway, since pretty much any dog I would place would be spayed/neutered prior to placement (obviously the breeding dogs would have to be kept intact, but they also wouldn't likely be working service dogs, either, and if there was one that was it would be a male and working for me)

 

[cricketsmygirl]

I know this may sound out there and perhaps to some, crazy but how about an APBT? or an Amstaff or American Bulldog? I know people with APBT's who are service dogs and I know people who have other Pit Bull breeds as service dogs and have seen some pretty great things done with them.

 

[Zoom]

Pitties make good service dogs, but they're too small for what the OP is going to use them for.

 

[colliewog]

True Australian labradoodles have been successful service dogs. No, they are not as common as labs and goldens, but they are out there. Romy is right - they were originally bred to be hypoallergenic for a person in Hawaii who needed a guide dog but her husband was severely allergic to dogs. Poodles were hypoallergenic for him, but there were problems finding a poodle with a suitable temperament and such.

As far as tasks for autistics go, I am intimately acquainted with what we need. Of course it will vary from person to person, but in general, between myself and about 5 other people on the spectrum that have/need/want SDs, most of our tasks are the same.

I hadn't thought of smooth collies, but that is an option too. I will look more into them.

I personally love Aussies, my concern with them would be height, but they could potentially work too.

Borzois could be an option too. I have worked with a few briefly, and they seemed like wonderful dogs. I do happen to know a good breeder around here too.

I first said Smooths because they are used as guide dogs where a rough would be too much to maintain for a blind person, but for a sighted, able-bodied person, a rough wouldn't be an issue. In the US, they are varieties of the same breed, not individual breeds ...

 

[bubbatd]

I've never seen a bad Golden or Lab service dog . I met such a neat Golden today . I was at a " Walk " and a man and Golden was walking by . Seems that she was at a service dog convention and not to overwhelm her, a friend volunteered to walk her every few hours . He said that he removes her vest so she can be a " normal dog " on a walk . The thing that gt me was that she had a huge scar from the top of her head down her nose . Seems like she had a huge brain tumor that was removed and then trained as a service dog . I was almost in tears !

 

[corgipower]

I also know of several organizations that use lab/golden crosses to get the large balance dogs.

What is the reason for crossing labs with goldens?

The problem is there's no studies done at all to determine the physical stress put on the dog when he's wearing a tall harness; it's all advanced physics, I think! It also depends on what the person needs... do they put a lot of weight straight down on the dog when they walk, like a cane; do they need more lateral balance - left and right - or more balance forward and backward; do they put pressure on the dog on every step, or is it only occasionally; etc.

How much does the dog's structure besides height make a difference? If someone is putting weight straight down on a dog, would a stockier dog - a wider frame - be better even if he's a little shorter? Or would that aspect not matter?

I guess others to go out and meet/research might be bernese mt. dogs, leonbergers, and newfoundlands. Newfs might be a bit large and drooly, not too sure. Leos and berners in my experience tend to be pretty laid back and well adjusted, without much prey drive. There's a lady I know who is training a St. Bernard to be an autism dog, it will be interesting to see how that works out. I'd be concerned about the lifespan, but I guess time will tell.

I wouldn't suggest Berners. I've never seen one that I would want to use as a SD. They can be great 95% of the time, but they have a tendency to spook and completely flip out on occasion, in some very unpredictable and odd ways.

 

[Romy]

I wouldn't suggest Berners. I've never seen one that I would want to use as a SD. They can be great 95% of the time, but they have a tendency to spook and completely flip out on occasion, in some very unpredictable and odd ways.

That's good to know. I've never lived with one, so these are the kinds of things you'd have to learn by spending time with them.

Grammy, my training with Strider was nearly totally destroyed when he was 1 year old, when a lab service dog assisting a woman in a wheelchair saw him at the store, flipped out and ripped the leash from her hand and charged at us ready to rip him a new one. I had to body block her to keep him from being bitten. Luckily she tried to get around me instead of biting her way through, we were in a narrow aisle, and the staff at the store (it was a feedstore/grooming parlor) were very dog savvy and got her away before anyone was hurt. I still regret not noting the patch on her vest, it looked like a SD org patch. Strider was reactive for months afterward and it took a ton of work to desensitize him to dogs on leash again. He's fine now thank goodness.