Just because someone does health testing and breeds only champions doesn't make them an ethical breeder. Case in point: I was at PetCo Saturday and there was a Cairn Terrier rescue group there who had a dog who was a champion. According to the rescue group, he was quite well known in the ring. He was given to the group directly by his owner/shower, who had neglected him to the point where he only had ten teeth left, five of which had to be removed. What did the owner care? They'd moved on to other champions.
breeding blues (ethics question)
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I really dont know much about color coat inheritance with the type of dogs you are talking about. I do know that merles have problems in many breeds.
Is there some kind of test they could have done that could have given them an idea of how the litter would come out?
I know for most breeds theres a color coat inheretance test you can do on both parents. It will tell you the colors you will get in the litters and what colors the two will throw together.
If there is no test that can determine how many pups will if any be effected by blindness or deafness then its unethical. Im sorry you are having to go through this frustration. Is it possible for you to find another kennel to work for?
Is there some kind of test they could have done that could have given them an idea of how the litter would come out?
I know for most breeds theres a color coat inheretance test you can do on both parents. It will tell you the colors you will get in the litters and what colors the two will throw together.
If there is no test that can determine how many pups will if any be effected by blindness or deafness then its unethical. Im sorry you are having to go through this frustration. Is it possible for you to find another kennel to work for?
I have a question on how I should feel about something. I know how I do feel about this... and I honestly think that this is how I should feel... but I want some support 
The kennel I work at are breeding some blue merels to blue merels. Blue + blue = possible double dilutes. A double dulite is often born with no eyes, and deaf. And they are breeding these blues to blues because the blues that come out not double dilutes supposivly makes very pretty show dogs.
I dont feel its right to be breeding blue to blue with them knowing very well that they could mostly end up having to be pts. Should I feel this way?
and in your opinion is 28 dogs, and 4 litters on the way WAAYYY to many dogs?
The kennel I work at are breeding some blue merels to blue merels. Blue + blue = possible double dilutes. A double dulite is often born with no eyes, and deaf. And they are breeding these blues to blues because the blues that come out not double dilutes supposivly makes very pretty show dogs.
I dont feel its right to be breeding blue to blue with them knowing very well that they could mostly end up having to be pts. Should I feel this way?
and in your opinion is 28 dogs, and 4 litters on the way WAAYYY to many dogs?
WHAT??????? I cannot believe they are doing this!!! This just really irratates me to NO end. This is simply not in compliance with the CCA and of being a responsible breeder and breeding responsibly to the Collie standard as you know Rabbit. And you are completely justified in feeling the way that you do.
Even though they might not have YET had offsping of the Blue to Blue mating the offspring OF this mating could produce offspring with the health issues!
I can tell you that I feel for the dogs AND the people who buy these puppies. And given that this breeder gives out pedigree charts it will not be long before someone makes it known of these practices. Especially those who are show people and buy these pups and something goes wrong. For the rest of the world who doesn't know much about blue to blue mating in COLLIES this is a NO NO. I don't know about any other merle matings in any other breed but Collies? Nope.
It's the same in Aussies as well. Blue to blue gives a roughly 25% chance of coming out with a lethal white of some degree. I've met some that got very lucky and have just enough coloring in the right places to avoid blindness and deafness, but they are still photosensitive. Then there are others you can find on ARPH that are the full complement of lethal white...totally white, totally blind and totally deaf.
To me, it's not worth the risk. I quit considering one very well known kennel after finding out they breed merle to merle on occassion. I don't care what your justification for it is, it's still wrong. You can still produce some outstanding colorating from a merle to solid breeding!
To me, it's not worth the risk. I quit considering one very well known kennel after finding out they breed merle to merle on occassion. I don't care what your justification for it is, it's still wrong. You can still produce some outstanding colorating from a merle to solid breeding!
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Just because someone is a reputable breeder doesnt mean their ethics are always there.
I have heard from numerous people that breed a certain breed prone to deafness. They will breed a unilateral hearing dog (a dog who can only hear out of one ear) if they think he/she will produce a champion, even though you are pretty much going to get a deaf dog when you breed unis. They do all this despite the fact that their "club stance" is to euthanize deaf puppies. So they are breeding dogs on purpose who will throw deaf puppies and then killing the deaf puppies.
These are reputable breeders who have high standards.
I have heard from numerous people that breed a certain breed prone to deafness. They will breed a unilateral hearing dog (a dog who can only hear out of one ear) if they think he/she will produce a champion, even though you are pretty much going to get a deaf dog when you breed unis. They do all this despite the fact that their "club stance" is to euthanize deaf puppies. So they are breeding dogs on purpose who will throw deaf puppies and then killing the deaf puppies.
These are reputable breeders who have high standards.
It's just plain old autosomal recessive inheritance. so when breeding two merles together, odds always are 1/4 or 25% of pups will be affected which can cause severe problems that lead to death or fairly healthy but blind & deaf dogs. Of course it's not always exactly 25% sometimes more pups are affected sometimes less, but the odds are always the same. Some dogs are just deaf but most are at least somewhat visually impaired as well. This occurs when breeding any merles together wether it's collies, aussies, shelties etc. The reason breeders do it is to get a higher percentage of merles in a litter-- seems like a waste to me if so many pups will be seriously disabled and may die. I thought tris were favored in the show ring for collies anyway (I could be totally worng on that) so it really seems like a stupid thing to do.
my male aussie is the result of a merle x merle "oops" litter. He was a lucky one.
6 in the litter, 2 froze to death, don't know their status, of the 4 remaining, 1 was deaf, 1 a lethal white, mine normal, his merle brother normal ..
Does this breeder cull litters? I imagine he does, since all are not going to be "perfect", I'd be dumping this loser fast and I'd make sure they knew why.
Diane
6 in the litter, 2 froze to death, don't know their status, of the 4 remaining, 1 was deaf, 1 a lethal white, mine normal, his merle brother normal ..
Does this breeder cull litters? I imagine he does, since all are not going to be "perfect", I'd be dumping this loser fast and I'd make sure they knew why.
Diane
I can't say that I know to much about Merle, it is a vary rare thing with APBT's. A lot of people believe that any Merle ABPT is mixed with Catahoula.
My question is....
Is not any kennel that breeds for color unethical?
If they are not breeding to better their breed, then they will always be unethical in my eyes. Color should be secondary to health and conformation. And to knowingly create a litter with a high cull factor "just in case you get that perfect champion" is disgusting.
I respect my dogs too much to play that game!
P.S. I've learned a lot in this thread about Merle, thanks all for the informative posts.
My question is....
Is not any kennel that breeds for color unethical?
If they are not breeding to better their breed, then they will always be unethical in my eyes. Color should be secondary to health and conformation. And to knowingly create a litter with a high cull factor "just in case you get that perfect champion" is disgusting.
I respect my dogs too much to play that game!
P.S. I've learned a lot in this thread about Merle, thanks all for the informative posts.
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We have a "breeder" here who breeds merle/merle aussies. We can always tell when he has a litter, because any disabled puppy ends up at animal control. Sometimes we can take those that are less severely affected, but most of them are put down. I do have a question though. We had one of his pup that was deaf. She was solid white. She has had a ton of skin problems, including a reoccuring skin infection that causes all the fur to fall out on her head. Is this common in double merles, or is something else going on? Also, what is a lethal white?
Last night after I posted my 1st response on Rabbits topic, I telephoned my oldest dog's breeder who has always been very helpful to me whether or not I purchased a pup from her, in fact she helped me with Chloe's breeder.
When I asked my breeder if she knew or knew of the breeder in which Rabbit spoke of, my breeder said........"Ohhhhhhh, yes" with that tint of distain in her voice. I asked her if she knew about the blue to blue purposeful breedings done by that kennel. She said yes, they had been doing it for a while now and that THEY sell to another BIGTIME collie breeder who very tightly in-breeds THEIR dogs. I know who the BIGTIME breeder is in fact I rejected even considering purchasing one of their pup's upon my further investigation, even though their Collie's win nearly everything, first time in which they compete. The owner of the said "Bigtime" collie kennel is also a very well known handler.......for MANY years. The kennel in which Rabbit is speaking of IS a showmill. Their dogs have been known to carry AND pass on many health defects. This kennel breeds dogs like a toy manufacturer turns out toys for Christmas. My breeder said that breeding 2 blue merles together is a crapshoot. You can bet your bottom dollar that when some of these litters have been born that there are some of the pups that are destroyed on the spot if something can be seen wrong at that time. And I probably wouldn't be wrong if I guessed that some of the breeding bitches have MORE than one litter in 14-18 months.
Dry Creek, no it isn't unethical to breed for color as long as you are breeding healthy dogs who could better the breed standard.
Momof7, it's not only color coat inheritence in the blue merles, it's their genes that when bred with each other that can produce MAJOR defects.
Any breeder who knows about Collies KNOWS plain and simple that you do not mate 2 blues because of the health issues that it can produce with a fairly high percentage.
Both of my Collies go to dog daycare and they attend with a merle Australian Shepherd who is the offspring of a merle to merle breeding. He is deaf, he has no percentage of hearing, he has eye health problems although he is not blind. When the previous owner of this Aussie called the breeder and told them he was deaf (age 4 months) the breeder told her to return him and they would put him to sleep and give her another puppy. All because he was deaf (eye probs came later) She refused to return him. This Aussie is now 5 years old, well behaved and knows sign language. A perfect pet, he's just totally deaf, but he's a happy dog and is one of my dog's best playmates.
I'm sorry for the long post but this just BURNS me up!!!
When I asked my breeder if she knew or knew of the breeder in which Rabbit spoke of, my breeder said........"Ohhhhhhh, yes" with that tint of distain in her voice. I asked her if she knew about the blue to blue purposeful breedings done by that kennel. She said yes, they had been doing it for a while now and that THEY sell to another BIGTIME collie breeder who very tightly in-breeds THEIR dogs. I know who the BIGTIME breeder is in fact I rejected even considering purchasing one of their pup's upon my further investigation, even though their Collie's win nearly everything, first time in which they compete. The owner of the said "Bigtime" collie kennel is also a very well known handler.......for MANY years. The kennel in which Rabbit is speaking of IS a showmill. Their dogs have been known to carry AND pass on many health defects. This kennel breeds dogs like a toy manufacturer turns out toys for Christmas. My breeder said that breeding 2 blue merles together is a crapshoot. You can bet your bottom dollar that when some of these litters have been born that there are some of the pups that are destroyed on the spot if something can be seen wrong at that time. And I probably wouldn't be wrong if I guessed that some of the breeding bitches have MORE than one litter in 14-18 months.
Dry Creek, no it isn't unethical to breed for color as long as you are breeding healthy dogs who could better the breed standard.
Momof7, it's not only color coat inheritence in the blue merles, it's their genes that when bred with each other that can produce MAJOR defects.
Any breeder who knows about Collies KNOWS plain and simple that you do not mate 2 blues because of the health issues that it can produce with a fairly high percentage.
Both of my Collies go to dog daycare and they attend with a merle Australian Shepherd who is the offspring of a merle to merle breeding. He is deaf, he has no percentage of hearing, he has eye health problems although he is not blind. When the previous owner of this Aussie called the breeder and told them he was deaf (age 4 months) the breeder told her to return him and they would put him to sleep and give her another puppy. All because he was deaf (eye probs came later) She refused to return him. This Aussie is now 5 years old, well behaved and knows sign language. A perfect pet, he's just totally deaf, but he's a happy dog and is one of my dog's best playmates.
I'm sorry for the long post but this just BURNS me up!!!