BC breeders, Ontario-wise?

[Paige]

I have no issue with a good breeder having their offspring go off and compete in sports. A dog who does well in sports shouldn't be their breeding goal in the Border Collie breed though. If we keep these dogs true to what they were originally bred for we can still have stellar Border Collies who compete in sports. I know a few very good farm dogs who are equally has amazing on the agility field.

Regardless it comes down to the breeder you find will fill the bill for what your needs and requirements are. I wish I could help you more but I don't live in Ontario.

 

[Lizmo]

Thanks for the PM! It helped a lot. And I know, you're not trying to bash. But hear out my side.

While I'm pretty new to the whole "find a reputable breeder to your breed" business (my border collie mix was a rescue), I've also been researching this ever since I found out I'd have a house for the dog. I've wanted a border collie for a number of years, beginning with when my old dog Fozzy started having joint issues and couldn't do agility anymore.

I -have- been mostly looking at working breeders. I also contact breeders that appear to be sport breeders, because websites are always decieving. I want to talk to the breeder directly, to find out about the drive their dog has, and whether the dog would be fitting to a home situation like mine.

The two current breeders I've been looking at, I chose to contact because they produce good dogs for working AND sports. The offspring are reputed sport dogs that go to family homes, their hips and eyes are certified, abd the registrations seem proper (although Cedar registers with AKC< which is a red flag, but they also haven't responded to my email yet).

I'm still waiting for a proper, "I've dealt with this breeder" opinion from anyone. If all I'm getting is "I wouldn't go to them because some of their dogs happen to do sports", then I'll be meeting with the breeder and their dogs myself to figure out if their dogs are a good match for me.

Not trying to be argumentive here, just explaining the process I've been going through thus far, and why I've chosen to contact specific breeders. I do appreciate the non-biased advice that people have posted here, based on their own experiences. It's nice to not feel like the dumb newbie. :X

I don't think your doing to find the "I've dealt with this breeder" with the breeders you've posted. I could give you my personal experience with my BC breeder, and others on here could too, but you didn't want to fly or ship the pup.

Just because the dogs are ones you would want to LIVE with, doesn't mean they are bred well.

I guess it just comes down to listening to ones that have experience in the breed. (and I'm not talking about just the posts here

I'm serious, post on the link I sent you via PM. They can and will help you find a breeder near you, or give you links to breeders that someone has dealt with personally.

 

[showdawgz]

Bottom line, it all comes down to what YOU want. If you want a sport dog, go for it. If everyone wanted a working dog, those would be the only ones bred (for any breed).

 

[RD]

Bottom line, it all comes down to what YOU want. If you want a sport dog, go for it. If everyone wanted a working dog, those would be the only ones bred (for any breed).

Agreed.

You asked for opinions and you got them, but get the dog you want and the dog that you feel you can live with.

 

[ihartgonzo]

Gosh. So much to read... eyes... bleeding! hehe.

I fully understand and recognize that there are Border Collies in dog sports that are wonky, and breeders should not focus wholey on peformance in dog sports as a reason to breed, or as a determining factor in the worthiness of a dog TO breed. Dog sports are supposed to simply be an outlet for working dogs (and non-working breeds) and a fun, bonding experience for the dogs and owners. Having been on two Flyball teams, both of which were SUPER competitive, and having been to lots of tournaments... I feel I've heard both sides of the story.

The environment of a Flyball tournament is incredibly fast-paced and stimulating, keep that in mind. The dogs in tournies will be barking, spinning, and carrying on when they know they're about to run... but is that how they are 24/7? NO. Sure, some of them are that wound up all the time, but the vast majority are not. Gonzo literally goes apeshit when he's about to run at Flyball tournaments. Does he go apeshit at practice? No, maybe a little, but not anywhere near that extent. And he quietly hangs out in his crate or x-pen for the majority of the time at tournies. At home, he's perfectly laid back and calm. I don't think a Flyball tournament is an appropriate or fair environment to judge the "off-switch" of any BC, or any dog... you cannot get the full story until you've seen that same dog hanging out at home, at the park, or even out working livestock.

Even though Flyball really is an intense sport - how is it detrimental to the breed?!? It takes a LOT of training and a LOT of control for those dogs to not only run the course at the speed that they do, but also to completely ignore dozens of other dogs around them, barking, and the dogs racing past them. If a single dog on a team crosses over, the entire team has to forfeit the heat! The dog has to have drive to work for their owner and has to be well trained, or either the dog will be extremely slow, they won't enjoy/participate in the experience, or they'll be forfeiting heats for the team. There IS a reason that Border Collies dominate in dog sports, particularly Flyball... it requires a hefty amount of work ethic, and desire to please their owners, and athleticism in general. At least Border Collies in Flyball are utilizing SOME of what makes them great working dogs, while Border Collies in a show ring utilize nothing in regards to brains or biddability. In fact, there was a "Barbie Collie" in my classes, and she had absolutely no working/herding/anything drive, bless her. Her owner would tell her to go over the jumps, tell her to trigger the box, and tell her to bring the ball back over. But, anyone could see that the dog didn't enjoy it, she didn't enjoy working, she had no desire for it and she would amble slowly through the course every time. Of course, because she was a show Champion, it didn't matter that she didn't have the drive to fetch a ball without being forced to... last time I saw her, she was about to be bred by another Champion BC. Yippee.

I have met several AWESOME, well-bred working Border Collies who are also amazing Flyball dogs. Gonzo is completely working bred, and he loves Flyball. I have probably met hundreds of BCs at tournaments... some of them were stressed and high strung, but the vast majority were well-adjusted dogs, in general, who were HAPPY and considered Flyball a job. The vast majority of neurotic BCs I have met are not the dogs competing in dog sports, they are the dogs sitting idly in backyards and suffering the neglect of owners who didn't have the time/interest to give them an appropriate "job".

But... as I was saying... ramble, ramble, ramble. haha. I just felt the need to defend Flyball, as although it isn't exactly my cup o' tea, I have met many wonderful people/dogs involved in it and me and Gonzo have had lots of fun with it. I would NEVER discredit a BC breeder for participating in dog sports with their dogs. Of course, it would not be a priority, and the dogs' working ability, temperament, and health is paramount. But, the fact that the breeder also takes the time to compete in dog sports with her dogs, and the fact that the dogs are versatile and can go from working livestock to running an agility course in a day, is just a BONUS, to me. : )

 

[ihartgonzo]

While I'm pretty new to the whole "find a reputable breeder to your breed" business (my border collie mix was a rescue), I've also been researching this ever since I found out I'd have a house for the dog. I've wanted a border collie for a number of years, beginning with when my old dog Fozzy started having joint issues and couldn't do agility anymore.

I -have- been mostly looking at working breeders. I also contact breeders that appear to be sport breeders, because websites are always decieving. I want to talk to the breeder directly, to find out about the drive their dog has, and whether the dog would be fitting to a home situation like mine.

The two current breeders I've been looking at, I chose to contact because they produce good dogs for working AND sports. The offspring are reputed sport dogs that go to family homes, their hips and eyes are certified, abd the registrations seem proper (although Cedar registers with AKC< which is a red flag, but they also haven't responded to my email yet).

Awww, you had a Fozzy, too! : ) Fozzy/ies are the best, aren't they?

Props to you for planning ahead and looking for a GOOD breeder, rather than the average person who looks in the newspaper, or puppyfind.com, or whatnot. The breeding of Border Collies is hotly debated, and there are a number of "sides". You are never going to please everyone. There are elitists and extremists on each side. IMO, as long as the dogs have proven that they are excellent working dogs, who cares what sports they participate in?

Agility and Flyball aren't ruining anything! People who breed for selfish reasons, and who alter breeds for their personal gain, are the ones ruining breeds. I think the growing popularity of dog sports over the last few years is amazing, because people now have tons of opportunities to give their working dogs a job without owning livestock.

 

[PAWZ]

So you're saying BCs aren't capable of being versatile the way other breeds are?

edit: I know that probably sounds argumentative and I don't mean it to, but like Dekka, I expect to see a variety of titles on a dog to prove its versatility. I'm very very surprised to hear that BCs can't be versatile, and if you ask it to be, you're somehow making it less capable of doing what it was originally meant to do...

___________

Border collies can be as versitile as anything out there BUT should not be breed for any other reason than the ability to work. Agility titles are all well and good, but that is not what this breed was created to do. Now I am agility junkie, have 3 border collies 1 who will be put on sheep, none that will be bred because they are rescues. The youngest because he came from a "Sport" breeder who didnt take the time to educate
___________

 

[Paige]

I don't think anyone has an issue with Border Collies competing in dog sports. I know I sure don't! I think it's great.

 

[CharlieDog]

I think the issue would be breeding SOLELY for sports.

 

[Lizmo]

I think the issue would be breeding SOLELY for sports.

Amen.

 

[SizzleDog]

I think the issue would be breeding SOLELY for sports.

YEP! That's EXACTLY what I meant!

 

[Paige]

AMEN GUYS!



But I do think I'd like to clear it up. I do not disagree with having a dog you do sports with I think agility/fly ball/whatever are great!

 

[SizzleDog]

I totally agree Paige - I love seeing dogs do stuff, even if I don't have the time right now to do stuff like that with my own dogs.

But as soon as the owner puts their ego, greed, or lust for fame ahead of their dog's health and wellbeing, it ceases to be a positive thing in my mind. I've seen people ruin dogs (sadly, mostly in Flyball) because they wanted "one more title", or "we're soooo close to that ONYX!" ... I feel for the poor dogs, they don't know what titles or ribbons are. All they know is that they hurt.

 

[Paige]

I have never seen anything like that in the dog world but in the horse world I could tell you things that would make you cry. As long as people have the dog's best interest at heart, and I do think most people who do dog sports do, then I will continue to support it.

 

[Lizmo]

Definitely agree Paige and Sizzle!

 

[AllieMackie]

See, this is what annoys me in general about responses I've recieved. Not here necessarily, but on other forums as well.

As soon as I mention a breeder that breeds dogs that do herding AS WELL as agility, flyball or whatever, people's red flags go up and go OMG SPORT BREEDER GTFO. No one mentions specifically why the breeder is bad, or why they may not be a good fit for me (at least here, Beanie got some good feedback on a sepcific breeder or two - and I appreciate that! Constructive criticism on a breeder is happily accepted).

I understand, even moreso now that I've done a good chunk of research/correspondance, that breeders who breed -solely- for sport are best avoided. I've seen the high-drive dogs they produce, and it would not be a suitable dog for me. But some of these... I guess one would call them "combo" breeders, seem very promising - I've had good contact via email, and intend to meet some of them, and their dogs, personally within the next few weeks. I feel that will be a huuuuge step to finding out if a breeder like that is right for me.

Now, this isn't me being biased, but... I find that the local working breeders I've contacted seem very short with me. As if I don't have a clue what I'm talking about, which is quite rude. It's mostly through email, so I'm trying tot ake it with a grain of salt, but still... I find I'm getting more polite, constructive responses from the combo breeders. I know email is email, but I still find it an important "screening process" for both me and the breeder. *shrug*

Babbling, but if anyone has insight, it's appreciated, as always.

 

[Lizmo]

Allie, would you care to share what working breeders you've contacted? I'd be very interested to know.

 

[AllieMackie]

Yep! I'll PM you if that's alright, since I'd rather not accidentally slander anyone publicly that might be a misunderstanding.

 

[Paige]

I'm sorry if I've come across that way. It was never my intent. Getting a dog to compete in dog sports is great. A breeder who does both herding and sports with their dogs are also great. If I had personal experience with those breeders I'd be more than happy to share my insights on them. All I can say is what I personally would look for/avoid in a breeder.

Go with your gut on it. You sound like you know what you are looking for.

 

[RD]

AM,

I certainly didn't mean that.

The reason I personally avoid the "combo" breeders is because I do have a bit of an agenda. I want to see this breed preserved as a working breed, and a mediocre stockdog that does wonderfully in sports will probably be seen as breeding quality due to the success in sports - not its prowess as a working dog. Because the instinct to work is so refined in this breed, it's basically a recessive trait. If it isn't focused on and actively pursued in a breeding program, it's going to go downhill. I have worked a couple dogs from these "combo" breeders and they're not as intuitive and talented to work on livestock. I know this probably doesn't matter to you, but keeping the border collie a working breed is important to me.

I just don't think one can say that sports don't contribute to the decision of whether or not to breed a dog. It's fine if you disagree, but I would encourage you to find me a MACH (or canadian equivalent) that is successful in Border Collie trials. I have yet to find one that places reliably in Open trials (mind you, I'm speaking of USBCHA/ISDS trials, not AKC/CKC trials) and also competes at the higher levels of competition in other sports. But maybe I just don't get out enough.

As for working breeders being short... I don't know what to say to that. My dog's breeder was to-the-point but she was certainly not short with me or rude in the slightest.