Albino Dobermans

[JennSLK]

So I dont hijack the other thread:

There are five "colors" of dobes. As much as people dont want to admit it, well there are. Only 4 are reconized and only 4 are "right"

Taken from DPCA | The Doberman | Albino | What is albino

Albino is not a color
In November 1976, a mutation occurred with the whelping of a cream colored Doberman..

Her sire, dam, and litter-mates were normal colored black and tans. She had pale blue eyes, pink nose, eye rims, pads and membranes. Where tan markings would be they were Albino..

She was bred to a dominant black male, producing 14 black and tan pups. A male and female were kept and all ran loose. Her son sired her next litter, which contained 2 Albino males. He was also bred to his sister and her litter contained 2 Albino bitches. Later, these Albinos were bred together producing all Albinos..

These dogs have been highly inbred and have multiplied at an enormous rate, and unfortunately they are being bred into our top show lines..

While we can readily identify an Albino, we cannot detect the mutant gene which is carried by a great many of our normal colored dogs..

It has been proven that the Albino mutation is not related to our dilution genes (blue and fawn)..

In 1982, the AKC approved the DPCA's amendment to the Doberman standard disqualifying "dogs not of an allowed color.".

This prevented the Albino's from being shown in the conformation ring, but unfortunately does not stop the continued breeding of these mutant Dobermans. The AKC had refused DPCA's request to cancel any registration of Albino Dobermans..

The DPCA employed the services of several noted geneticists, vets, and color experts as well as purchasing 2 Albino bitches for test breedings. They also conducted many scientific studies of hair, skin and eyes by professionals at leading universities..

The results after a five-year study conducted by the DPCA and its consultants, concluded these mutants were correctly termed, "albino or tyrosine positive, partial albino or tyrosine negative which suffer from hypo-melanocytic disease. It is important to note here that partial albinos are still albinos..

Albinism is a deleterious mutation which affects the whole body..

Why does the DPCA reject the Albino?
We know that these dogs are photophobic, (sensitive to sun light). They have vision problems resulting from abnormal development of the retina..

They are prone to skin cancer and skin lesions. Due to the lack of pigment, they are extremely susceptible to skin damage from the sun..

Poor temperament is a significant concern. Due to the intense inbreeding to obtain the mutation, the temperaments on a great many are totally unstable. These problems range from fear biting to outright vicious attacks. Shyness is prevalent. Most are not suitable for homes with small children. Yes, there are exceptions, but hardly enough to make them acceptable to most families..

In addition to the above problems concerning health and temperament, these dogs have a total lack of breed type..

There is dialog currently between the DPCA and the American Kennel Club to impose a breeding restriction on the Albinos. They would still be registered, but would have the same restrictions as an ILP registered dog. Owners would not be allowed to register any progeny of the Albinos..

While negotiations continue, the DPCA is utilizing a tracking system, call The "Z" List. This tracking system identifies any dogs that may carry this mutant gene. It enables ethical breeders to avoid breeding to animals with the defect..

While we can understand the attachment one can have for animals of all colors, sizes, shapes and pedigreed or not, we must realize that the Doberman Pinscher was a breed created for a purpose..

A standard of excellence was drawn up describing what the ideal Doberman should look like, how it should act, and what colors it should be. Albino cannot be classified as a color. It is just the opposite. It is the lack of color..

No recognized standard would call for a dog that is Albinoid. It is a genetic defect in all creatures..

The DPCA Code of Ethics is available here..

This brochure is updated from the original text written by:.

Mrs. Judy Doniere
Second Edition, 2001

 

[Sapphire-Light]

They DO look pretty,is a shame the health problems,.


I saw them for the first time in a circus's musical spectacle, they had like 7 of them, very well trained.

The public was very happy and they didn't notice they where dobermanns, I'm pretty sure if most of them knew they would be scared of them and not happy... sigh...


But going back into colors, JennSLK do you know why the FCI doesn't accept blue or isabella? I heard it was 'cause of skin problems.

 

[JennSLK]

Honestly Im not sure. Alot of people dont like them because they are dilutes. They also have alot more skin and coat problems than blacks and reds

 

[Sapphire-Light]

Honestly Im not sure. Alot of people dont like them because they are dilutes. They also have alot more skin and coat problems than blacks and reds

So what I heard was true.. hmm I wonder if in europe theres still someone breeding blues and isabellas.

Not sure if they people producing albinos there.

Heres a quote from the FCI standar for the members to see:

COLOUR : The colour is black or brown, with rust red clearly defined and clean markings. Markings on the muzzle, as a spot on the cheeks and the top of the eyebrow, on the throat, two spots on the forechest, on the metacarpus, metatarsus and feet, on the inside of the back thigh, on the arms and below the tail.

FAULTS

• Coat : Markings too light or not sharply defined; smudged markings; mask too dark; big black spot on the legs; chest markings hardly visible or too large; hair long, soft, curly or dull. Thin coat; bald patches; large tufts of hair particularly on the body; visible undercoat.


DISQUALIFYING FAULTS :

• Coat : White spots; pronounced long and wavy hair; pronounced thin coat or large bald patches.

 

[Kat09Tails]

Personally I do like blue dobies. I think they're lovely but they do tend to have skin issues. I'm of the opinion that dobermans are in general in dire need of help in the health dept in general though, to the point I think they should open the stud book for those interested in rebuilding to what it once was.

There are so few dobies left that can hold a candle to the dogs of the past in terms of breed appropriate temperament, health, and working ability. There is a reason why you never see a modern military dobe vs the numbers of labs as sniffers, mals, and GSDs as patrol dogs. In my eyes color is the least of their concern.

 

[StillandSilent]

Every time I see an albino dobe, I want to nibble on it. They look so much like white chocolate that they make me hungry. Then I feel bad for it, with it's associated problems. We had one at the shelter, and his poor skin was so bad.

 

[JennSLK]

There are so few dobies left that can hold a candle to the dogs of the past in terms of breed appropriate temperament, health, and working ability. There is a reason why you never see a modern military dobe vs the numbers of labs as sniffers, mals, and GSDs as patrol dogs. In my eyes color is the least of their concern.

They do have enough problems. Why would you add to them by breeding in dogs who are unhealthy because of thier color?

 

[Kat09Tails]

I have the option of not caring when the breeders are unwilling to save their dogs and breed from themselves. In my eyes big changes are needed to save the breed from becoming as much of a health disaster as cavaliers. Add in that dobermans are so unfit via temperament that they are completely unable to do the function for what the breed was created then why would I care if the dog is fawn, white, green, sable? They are a shell of what they should be anyways, why can't the exterior match the interior?

If you want a moderately reliable PP dog, a military dog, a police dog, or a high performing sport dog look at a the belgian breeds or a good working line GSD if you can find one. You'd need a global search to find a doberman of caliber and even then you probably won't find one that won't fold under pressure.

 

[AGonzalez]

Kat, I bet you'd like my trainers Dobes, his bitch was SchHIII They'd be shunned by most of the Dobe people here, he doesn't crop their ears.
BUT, his male is Lacey's age and not nearly mature enough mentally (his words) yet. Apparently, Dobe's like his bitch are hard to come by, we discussed it briefly but I know jack about Dobes so...

 

[JennSLK]

I have the option of not caring when the breeders are unwilling to save their dogs and breed from themselves. In my eyes big changes are needed to save the breed from becoming as much of a health disaster as cavaliers. Add in that dobermans are so unfit via temperament that they are completely unable to do the function for what the breed was created then why would I care if the dog is fawn, white, green, sable? They are a shell of what they should be anyways, why can't the exterior match the interior?
.

For starters GOOD breeders are doing thier best to make sure this doesnt happen. Exactly what changes would YOU like to see happen health wise??

GOOD breeders breed dogs with goo temperments. Yes there are those who bredd soft temperments but there are those whos temperments are way to sharp. A doberman should be a good, trusted family pet, that can still go out and do PP. I know ALOT of dobermans who can. Just because a breeder isnt doing PP with thier dogs doesnt mean they cant. The amount of time and money that goes into being good at either conformation or PP doesnt leave alot to do the other one.

I dont care how good the dog is at PP it better conform to the standard. If not, its not worth anything in a breeding program. Same goes for a prety dobe who cant even pass a WAC

 

[JennSLK]

Color mutant alopecia (hair loss) is usually found in blue Dobermans although it can occur in reds. In addition to the hair loss, there is a general lack of luster to the coat, scaliness in the skin and papule formation. Papules are cystic hair follicles that develop into pustules. After several years the dog will be virtually bald upon the body. For some reason the head, legs and tail are the least affected by the alopecia. This particular condition may be controllable but is not curable.

Yup, who cares about color. Lets just breed tham and add more problems.

Albino Dobermans have become a hot debate among breeders, the Doberman Pinscher Club of America (DPCA) and fanciers of the color (or lack of). The first recorded albino was born in November 1976 and named Padula’s Queen Shebah. She was the result of breeding two normally colored Dobermans, Rasputin VI and Dynamo Humm. When the breeders first attempted to register Shebah with the American Kennel Club, the registration was rejected because “albino” isn’t an actual color. Eventually Shebah was registered with the AKC as white without the DPCA’s approval.


Once Shebah’s registration became official in 1979, her owners began breeding her. For these decedents of Sheba, the AKC specially tracks them since test breedings of albinos by the Doberman Pinscher Club resulted in dogs with a wide range of conformation defects. Their test subjects also showed severe temperament problems such as aggression, fear and trainability. It was because of these temperament problems that most of the test litters had to be put to sleep. The albinos were also photosensitive. Sheba has made a decided impact upon the breed. Since 1979 over 6500 decedents have been registered with over 1200 of them being Albinos.


Dobermans as a whole are wonderful, useful dogs and

Who cares if the dog is white? I guess it doesnt matter.

 

[Kat09Tails]

Please... you don't know what a PP dog is. A PP dog doesn't go into avoidance and wet themselves when put under real pressure. While a Dobe can be still be a sport dog just like any dog with half a bite can be a sport dog including a few hard mouthed labs I know of, a sport dog is rarely EVER a PP dog or a dog capable of being a patrol dog. Confirmation breeders have bred the temperament out of dobes and taken the health in exchange for a long neck and sloped back.

A dobe should be sharp and not every dog is a fit for the average family pet. While it gave the doberman numbers to soften their temperament to fit more homes it cut out the soul of what the breed should be. Why pretend they are what they are not? Make them white, make them beige, make them pink with polka dots, they're just pet line after all so why not let people just decide what they want their dobes to look like? It's not like they're exhibiting them in the show ring in the US. It's the same reason I have no problem with showline white GSDs, they're just pets, they can breed them to whatever shape and shade you want but no one pretends they're a working dog.

You're right AG. I would probably like your friend's dobe. A well bred solid dobe is a sight few have the privilege of seeing anymore. I hope your friend realizes what luck they have in that dog.

As far as what I think should be the future of dobermans that's not for me to decide, I don't breed them so why should I care? I'm just one mouth who calls the BS as I see it. It's up to the breeders to decide what their breed should be, I just think they shouldn't try to fool people to pretend that they're better than someone else.

 

[Kat09Tails]

Yup, who cares about color. Lets just breed tham and add more problems.

Who cares if the dog is white? I guess it doesnt matter.

Yeah who cares that they had 46 responses to this study? I can get more responses to the color white at the dog park in Seattle on the weekend. The Dobe club was seeing what they wanted to see IMO.

 

[JennSLK]

A doberman should not be so sharp it cant live in a family situation.

I know perfectly well what a PP dog is. A well bred Doberman does NOT wet them selves at a thretening situation. Some do, but they should not be luncluded in a breeding program.

Any doberman person, that knows anything at all, will tell you White dobermans have MAJOR issues. Major ones. Yes it was s smal study but the writing was my point without haveing to search out other studies. Its a know fact. But I guess since you are gods gift to everything dog related you know this.

I guess we should let people dicide what they want. Why not have puppy mills pumping out the "rare white doberman" and make the breed worse of health wise. Yup sounds like you have a great plan there.

 

[JennSLK]

Here is some EDUCATIONAL info :

How is the albino trait inherited in Dobermans?


Breeding studies, as well as nearly 30 years' worth of litters produced by private breeders, have established the pattern of inheritance of the albino trait in Dobermans. To understand this issue, let's take a look at Doberman color inheritance in general.

In the United States, there are four accepted colors in the Doberman breed. These are black, red (also referred to as brown), blue, and fawn (also referred to as Isabella). In the Doberman breed there are only two sets of genes which interact to produce these colors -- the "B" series, and the "D" series. Each of these gene "series" contains two alleles (variants) in the Doberman breed; the "dominant" allele is referred to with a capital letter, while the "recessive" allele is referred to with a lower-case letter. Dominant alleles always "dominate", or hide, the effects of recessive alleles in the same gene series. So we have B, b, D, and d. B produces black, b produces red (brown), D produces full pigment (non-dilute), and d produces dilute pigment.

Now, each dog carries two copies of the B series of genes and two copies of the D series of genes, and the dominant allele will always cover the effect of the recessive allele. So a black dog can be either BB or Bb, but a red dog must be bb. Similarly, a dog with non-dilute pigment can be either DD or Dd, but a dog with dilute pigment must be dd. Blue dogs are the dilute form of black, and fawn dogs are the dilute form of red.

So here's what we're left with --

Black dogs can be BBDD, BbDD, BBDd, or BbDd
Red dogs can be bbDD, or bbDd
Blue dogs can be BBdd or Bbdd
Fawn dogs can ONLY be bbdd

Now, what does this have to do with albinos?

As reported in the September 1984 Pipeline (the official publication of the DPCA), an albino to fawn breeding (not sponsored by the DPCA) produced all black puppies. Remember, the fawn parent MUST be bbdd -- it has NO copies of the dominant black gene, and NO copies of the dominant non-dilute gene. Since the fawn dog produced black puppies, both the black gene and the non-dilute gene MUST have been contributed by the albino parent. In addition, other breedings have proved that an albino dog bred to any colored dog which does not carry the albino trait will produce all colored puppies. Therefore, the albino trait is not dominant to either the black or dilution traits. This means that a dog must carry two copies of the albino gene in order to hide the other color traits.

These breedings prove that the albino trait is not in the same gene series as either the black trait or the dilution trait. The albino trait must therefore be inherited at a separate site. Further, the albino/fawn breeding also proves that the albino trait in Dobermans is "epistatic" -- which means that it covers or "masks" the effect of both the black and dilution traits when the dog has two copies of the albino gene. The albino involved in the albino/fawn breeding had both the dominant black and the dominant non-dilution trait, so it would have been a black dog if there had been no albino genes present. Since it did have two copies of the albino gene, both the black and non-dilution genes were "masked" or "hidden". That's why the albino gene is often referred to as a "masking gene".

The albino series of genes is classically referred to as "C". Although we now know that defects in several different genes can produce albinism (for example, the most common type of human albinism in the world is caused by a mutation in the P gene), for our purposes here we will refer to the gene as "C" for simplicity's sake. Further breedings have proved that the albino variant in dobermans is inherited as a simple recessive trait. Therefore, all albino dogs must carry two copies of the recessive gene, cc in order to appear albinistic. Normally colored dogs can be either CC or Cc. Dogs who are Cc can be any of the accepted colors, and there is currently no test (except for test breedings) which will detect the albino gene being carried by these dogs. Therefore, beginning in 1996, all dogs who are descended from albinos carry special registration numbers -- "z" numbers -- to warn breeders that these dogs may be carrying the albinistic trait.

 

[JennSLK]

Some more info.

The albino trait produces many deleterious changes besides just pale fur. All albinos have changes in their eyes and optic nerves related to their albinism. At least some types of albinism are known to cause several types of behavioral changes, as well as decreased intelligence. For instance, albinos of some species may be excessively emotional, or slow to learn new tasks, or especially fearful, or have a multitude of other behavioral problems.

For more specific information on some behavioral effects of albinism, look here.

Unfortunately, no controlled behavioral research has been performed specifically on albino Dobermans, as of the present time. So, despite many reports of severe fearful and/or aggressive behavior in albinistic Dobermans, we can't prove (yet) that these behavioral problems afflict the albino Doberman in particular. However, there is also no reason to suspect that behaviors associated with albinism in other species will be any different in the Doberman than in those other species. In particular, it appears that albino Dobermans often lack behavioral adaptability -- that is, they may behave normally in familiar surroundings and with familiar people and animals, but may adapt very poorly and become fearful around strange surroundings, strange animals, or strange people.

For more specific information on behavioral traits reported by owners of albino dobermans, look here.

It also seems evident from performance competitions that albinism does affect normal behavior in the albinistic Doberman. It appears that albinistic Dobermans are unable to perform at the level of normal Dobermans. Only fouralbinistic Dobermans have obtained any AKC-sanctioned performance titles, and even these have been only the most basic titles -- three CD (Companion Dog) titles, and one NAJ (Novice Agility, Jumpers) title. No albinistic Dobermans have obtained ANY advanced performance title. There were 10,402 AKC obedience titles earned by Dobermans between 1980 and 1995. This includes CDs, but does not include agility, schutzhund, flyball, or any other non-AKC working titles. In that same time, 620,074 Dobermans were registered. From these numbers we can calculate that there are approximately 1.7 AKC-sanctioned obedience titles earned for every hundred Dobermans registered in the United States. In comparison, roughly 1200 albinistic Dobermans have been registered by the AKC since 1979 (roughly 5500 albino-factored dogs were registered during the same period). If albinistic Dobermans obtained performance titles at the same rate as normal Dobermans, there would be approximately TWENTY albinistic Dobermans with AKC obedience titles alone. This doesnât even consider the many additional agility, flyball, schutzhund, ring sport, tracking, herding, carting titles, SAR certifications, etc., that they should have. But there are only four AKC titles earned by ANY albino doberman, and these are only the CDs and NAJ. It appears pretty obvious from this overall lack of titles that albinistic dogs are either incapable of gaining the titles, or their owners aren't interested enough in their own dogs to work with them.

General health -- The albinistic syndrome may be accompanied by a wide range of health problems. Some types of albinism affect the immune system, liver, or clotting ability, and others may cause other physiological abnormalities such as defects of the kidneys or thymus, anemia, inner ear defects, megacolon, neurological abnormalities, skeletal defects, microphthalmia, osteopetrosis, spina bifida, and sterility, just to name a few. Albinism in general predisposes animals to skin cancer as well as photosensitivity/photophobia. In some species, some types of albinism are even lethal! So it is easy to see that albinism is NOT just a matter of pigment, it's a deleterious mutation which affects the whole body.

Unfortunately, these health problems have not yet been studied in a controlled manner in the albino Doberman. However, as with the behavioral effects of albinism, there is no reason to suspect that the health effects of albinism will be any different in Dobermans than in other species. For instance, I know of at least one albinistic Doberman who suffered from severe progressive neurological problems, and was eventually euthanized for them. I know of another albino who suffered from megaesophagus, another neurological abnormality. Also, many owners of albino Dobermans have reported that their dogs squint in bright light, have poor vision, and are unable to remain in the sun for any significant length of time without burning. Several albino Dobermans have been reported with skin cancers. And, as discussed elsewhere, one of the best-known albino stud dogs died with malignant melanoma, at less than six years of age.

For more specific information on skin cancers in albinism, look here.
For more specific information on other deleterious health effects associated with many types of albinism, look here.
For more specific information on a few lethal albino mutations, look here,
For more specific information on auditory abnormalities associated with albinism, look here.

 

[Pops2]

jenn
standards change & do not necessarily reflect the best working dog. once upon a time the Isabella was a DQ color because the whole set of genes associated w/ that color produced a higher number of health problems than even the dilute blue. now it's an acceptable color and people wonder why health problems are more prevalent in the breed. ULTIMATELY as long as breeding stock is not put through the meat grinder physically & psychologically, the show crowd will NEVER produce the kind of dogs that originated their breeds. they are simply, generally ignorant of the job and so have no concerns w/ changing standards that in the long run adversely affect the health of the dogs. additionally they tend (due to fads) to steadily tighten the gene pool because the stud book is closed. working breeders OTH almost always outcross when the gene pool starts to show burnout or if the outcross will actually improve the dogs' performance. this keeps the gene pool open.
i understand what Kat09 is saying, the breed as a whole is screwed so who cares if it gets screwed some more (i actually disagree). but that's his opinion.
honestly SCH is all over the map, the title is only as good as the club. i'd rather see dobes titling in KNPV but that is going to require they follow the lead of the mali & dutchie breeders involved & outcross for performance (& as a nice side regain alot of the health).

 

[Pops2]

just an idea here

Kat09

what would you do to rebuild the dobe?
personally i'd start by crossing a premium working rott over several different greyhounds irish coursing line, NGA racer & KC showline that is active in NOFCA. take ALL the pups produced and work them in KNPV. those that make the grade get added to the dobe. then do the same w/ B&T factored APBT to the same types of grey w/ the same testing.

 

[Kat09Tails]

just an idea here

Kat09

what would you do to rebuild the dobe?
personally i'd start by crossing a premium working rott over several different greyhounds irish coursing line, NGA racer & KC showline that is active in NOFCA. take ALL the pups produced and work them in KNPV. those that make the grade get added to the dobe. then do the same w/ B&T factored APBT to the same types of grey w/ the same testing.

I like that question. I hear that Otto denied ever using the rottie in the breed creation so I'd be hesitant to add it in but one does what one must. Personally I'd start with the existing dobes and run them through a real courage test to see where there nerves and temperament were at and just to start require them to be CHIC dogs without being carriers of vW and showing that they had no cardiac or spinal malformations. Whatevers left (if there are any) after that could be crossed to german pinschers of similar standard, beauceron, and perhaps even mals/dutchies if that would get the working ability/reactivity back. All puppies born into such a breeding project would be on limited registration until a courage test by committee was passed after 2 years old, the dog had acceptable experience in a professional field like police or military work, or rose through to an acceptable level in a ring sport or knpv which would lift their registration to full.

Currently there are only 90 Chic dobermans with the dobie being 15th place among breed registrations. So at least I wouldn't have to test very many dogs.

I know that a lot of folks like the current doberman as it is. I don't mind that attitude if it were based in reality and disbursement of information. The doberman is a lot of things to a lot of people but a healthy breed it is not even among the most "reputable" of breeders, with only 90 dogs currently fully health tested I have to wonder who is doing the breeding. Combine with this the illusion of being a protection dog to the potential buyer and I have to cringe. Those who truly need a protection dog are ill served by such a notion because the temperament and hardiness isn't there anymore.

As far as what I wish for the doberman health wise. How about simply health testing them and publish those results for all to see? Apparently that's a lot to ask doberman breeders to do based on statistics. Don't feel too special though, not health testing is a very big problem among "reputable" dog breeders of a lot of breeds including my own. Step 2 would actually be selecting based upon those health tests but I know that's a lot to ask people who are so invested into their kennel names and championship titles but at least that information would be out for all to see.

 

[JennSLK]

Lack of a CHIC number doesnt mean the dog isnt fully tested. In order to get a CHIC number on a dobe you also need a WAC. There arent that many WAC events around and rarely in Canada.

All the reputable breeders I know publish health results. VwD is dne by a vet, as is cardio and thryoid so it is not actually included on the OFA website unless its sent in seperately. If you want to know about certs just ask the breeder.

How exactly would you test for cardio problems? Alot of times it does not show up till after the dog is 6yrs +. So you'd what be breeding 7-8yr old females? It can also be a clear test and 3 months later the dog is dead from it.

Who is "Otto"? I have never heard of the breed creator being called Otto. Karl Friedrich Louis Dobermann created the breed.

Why would you add more breeding in to creat a mutt? Yes the breed was created as a cross, Im well aware of that. But it was over 100 years ago. Lets add the German Pinscher who has major health issues, alot of wich are the same as a dobe.

But I guess we dont need pure breds. As long as they are all working bred mutts your happy.