Aggression

[Doberluv]

I see a lot of disturbing threads about aggression. Recently there is a thread which is not about aggression but it came up in one of the responses. So, to prevent myself from going off topic in that thread, I thought I'd start a new one.

What I find disturbing in many threads is advice to punish growling or other warning signs that a dog is stressed and coming to his individual threshold of perhaps what he perceives as a threat. I found disturbing that it was stated that "positive" methods or clicker training was not appropriate or functional for treating severe aggression problems. And to be wary of someone implying that there could be an organic, or genetic cause for aggression. This is not true. Brain chemistry has a lot to do with aggression. Pituitary, thyroid and a faulty cortisol response along with other neurotransmitter hormones often is the root of some behaviors and personality. Genes as well as nurture or environment both have everything to do with behavior and personality. Other medical problems can be at the root of aggressive displays. Its not always the first and what may appear to be the reason.

Clicker training or it's concepts are used widely in treating severe aggression problems and other behavior problems and very successfully.

I know that a lot of people are compelled to have extreme dominion over their dogs and think that it is appropriate and dog-like to exert their ability to have such power over their dogs....to force, to intimidate, to subdue certain undesireable behaviors which are coming out. However, with the advent of modern behavioral science, an abundance of studies and scientificaly carried out observations of domestic dogs, it has been demonstrated that positive reinforcement methods, clicker training is much more effective in the long run in treating aggression problems (along with other behavioral problems) than the use of compulsion, scoldings, collar yanks which merely supresses behavior and does nothing to solve the underlying cause. The behavior stops for the time being but very likely will re-surface later and unexpectantly. It is contraindicated to use anything but postive, gradual methods to treat aggression.

So, I think it is prudent to be abundantly cautious as well as educated when dealing with all behavior but especially aggression or extreme stress in a dog.

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

Here are some wonderful articles.

 

[Brattina88]

I agree. I've been feeling a little disturbed about some suggestions on how to handle these behaviors. The alarms in my head are calling "No! Don't do that!", but I keep my mouth shut - or in this case, fingers still.
A lot of dogs are given up for aggression issues, and I hate to say it like this, but when I foster I often don't have a problem with dogs dubbed 'aggressive.' I don't think people realize how they are making their dogs act... Be the best handler you can be, and you can have the best dog you can have

Good articles... I'm going to take some time to read them now

 

[elegy]

i find it a little disturbing as well that people are turning to an internet message board for help with serious serious problems. these people really really REALLY need to be looking for in-person help, especially with a dog who is aggressive toward humans.

 

[dr2little]

:hail: :hail: ^^^AGREE WITH ALL OF THE ABOVE!!

Great post Doberluv....as always!

 

[RD]

i find it a little disturbing as well that people are turning to an internet message board for help with serious serious problems. these people really really REALLY need to be looking for in-person help, especially with a dog who is aggressive toward humans.

I agree. There are a lot of things that can be resolved with help from people over the internet, but a serious problem with aggression is not one of them. I'm a bit uncomfortable about anyone being given advice on how to handle a highly aggressive dog, but it especially makes me cringe to see people giving detailed instructions to a NOVICE OWNER on how to "correct" their aggressive dog. :yikes:

I think helping the person find a reputable trainer would be more beneficial to the dog.

 

[otch1]

I agree with previous posts. While I haven't taken the time to read some of the advice given to threads asking how to, alter or re-direct aggressive behavior, I have noticed that a handful of owners are asking training questions because they can not afford a trainer, classes, ect. When addressing behavioral modification for someone that can not go to a trainer, I'm hoping the individuals giving advice will direct these owners to good books, websites, and information from qualified trainers, veterinarians and behaviorists, (as Doberluv just did) verses giving their personal opinions. It is impossible to acurately evaluate a dog with serious behavioral problems, over the internet, and advice given by another pet owner might be detrimental to the dog. I'll start a thread about Books, videos and literature... what/whose work, has helped you the most. Ideally, we can create a nice list for owners to choose from, that will hopefully be in their budget, (from qualified proffessionals).

 

[sam]

i find it a little disturbing as well that people are turning to an internet message board for help with serious serious problems. these people really really REALLY need to be looking for in-person help, especially with a dog who is aggressive toward humans.

No kidding!
I think it's great for people to read the advice in the interim and maybe realise some of the big mistakes that they might be inadvertently making but heck ya, online advice is no subsitute for professional help. Most people need a professional and to read some good books to "get it". I sure do -- I'm just so thankful when I had a "probelm dog" I happened upon a fabulous trainer :hail: I shudder to think were we'd be if I hadn't had her help.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Done with taxes .. whew .. just under the wire! *L*

Aggression is a difficult issue in real life, let alone over the internet. I, too, find it disturbing that people are willing to offer advice on how to give a correction when they can't see what's going on or have any true knowledge of the full problem. Maybe it's NOT the dog's fault. Maybe the dog has a physical problem that is creating the aggression. Maybe the dog is truly dangerous and a correction could result in the dog chewing on the owner. There are just too many variables for me to ever feel comfortable in saying "give that dog a correction".

I almost always recommend finding someone r/t who is qualified, experienced and able to formulate a program designed to help the dog and owner through the problem. I tend to tell people to avoid those who want to jump right to corrections because in my experience there are a LOT of people out there who think that as soon as a dog hackles up or grumbles a bit, the dog should be severely punished. Many of these people don't have a real idea of behavior, they just think "I'M GOING TO BE BOSS!!" and that means immediate physical domination. You want to talk "robot"?? Watch dogs that have been trained with fear. Their owners prance along proudly while the dogs slink at their sides, afraid to look away. I find that so incredibly sad.

I've worked with a number of aggressive dogs over the years (with the owners, of course) and brought these dogs through the aggression into having a viable relationship with their owners - based on trust. But I certainly don't feel comfortable in giving aggression advice to someone when I can't see the situation. I will encourage them to read up on how to provide a good leadership, because I have found that most aggression problems are in part due to a poor leader role on the part of the humans. I may recommend NILIF and even hand feeding for awhile. These sorts of things are not counter-productive to any desensitization or re-training plan they may receive from someone qualified in their area. But aggression problems do need to be properly assessed and dealt with, even if it costs to do that.

It sure beats paying for vet bills or even worse doctor bills because your dog injured another dog or person.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Doberluv]

Good post Melanie and lots of good posts. I agree with all of the above with one exception. When I see threads about a dog showing the beginning stages of food guarding or another resourse, a little growl or shifty eyes, I feel that this particular guarding issue may well be dealt with over the Internet....that is...if it is well described as food aggression. There is a set of definite steps to take which is very effective for the beginnings of this situation. If a dog is very close to biting (which can be the case if the dog's growl was punished in the past) or if the dog has bitten or snapped, then I beleive it requires in home, hands on help.

There was a poster here who had a dog who was going after other people in the home if they had food. This is an example of where it is clearly indicated to immediately get professional help.

If a dog has bitten one time, at all....time for professional help in the home.

So, for the most part, I totally agree. And it is absolutely a mistake to advise people to punish a dog who growls. This can definitely backfire and exasperate the problem.

 

[Doberluv]

Here is an informative, easy-to-read article about aggression and inheritance. Thought you might like it. There are two pages.

http://www.goodpooch.com/MediaBriefs/GPtemperament.htm

 

[elegy]

so please excuse my i only got six hours of sleep last night vagueness, but that article is saying there's not a solid link between aggression and genetics? not sure that i agree with that. clearly there's a strong tendency in certain breeds to be dog-aggressive that's not seen in other breeds (pit bulls vs say, beagles). it's also pretty much proven that fearfulness or shyness is heritable and anger comes from a very similar place in the brain.

 

[Doberluv]

Yes, brain chemistry (I forget all the stuff I read) can create a dog who is more predisposed to aggression but it depends ultimately on nurture. There's a discussion about this in the breeding forum. But it's something like this: Aggression is a behavior, not a trait. Underlying are traits which boost one dog over another to be quicker to react to stimuli which may antagonize an aggressive reponse. But aggression in and of itself is not a gene. That is the information I have read so far. That doesn't mean that they won't find a gene someday. They're always discovering new genes. But the gist I got from several articles and Ray and Loran Coppinger's book (they're biologists and ethologists) is that all dogs have herding instincts, protection instincts among other drives. Their intensity varies between dogs. Aggression is simply a bi-product and behavior of shyness or nervousness or protectiveness or some other trait which is inheratable. It's got to do with brain chemistry and a lot to do with early nurture....experiences etc.

Someone can take a dog born with a nervous, sketchy, shy temperament and provided it's nurture before the human gets involved (while the dog is with it's mother) is geared toward overcoming some of that and when the human takes over, if the dog's experiences are just right and he is handled just right, he can come out with no aggressive behavior. A dog who is born with a more stable temperament can have a mother and/or littermates who cause experiences which erode the dog's confidence, say....frighten the pup etc. Then a human can take over and use a lot of aggression toward the pup or in general raise it badly and the pup ends biting someone. Many, many dogs are aggressive and bite and were not born with lousy temperaments. So, apparently, nurture has a huge bearing...early, early nurture. It's an intesting study. I wish I had my book here....loaned it out. But it is explained well in Lorna and Ray Coppinger's book.

 

[elegy]

but *is* aggression a behavior, not a trait? i don't know that i believe that. aggression can be a behavior that's a result of a trait such as shyness, but i think aggression can also drive things that are not "inappropriate behaviors" such as a terrier's prey drive.

i think this is all much too simplified. yes, nature and nurture are both important, but without nature, you've got no basis from which to start building.

you can get a pit bull raised perfectly from birth and still have a dog-aggressive dog. it's aggression may be more mediated than what it could have been, but you still have an aggressive dog because that's what genetics have dictated.

 

[casablanca1]

One thought about the whole controversy over what we tell people who have aggression issues - it is dangerous to make recomendations based on only what we read in a forum, and the people do need to find a real trainer. But, that's a lot easier said than done. My sister has a very aggressive dog. She did make a pretty good effort to find someone who could help her with the dog. We live in a region of the country that is very well-served by medical and behavioral specialists - she took him to UPenn's behavior people, for instance, and for a time had him on prozac. But despite the fact she has the money to chase specialists and trainers, and despite the plethora of them around in our area, she's never really found a good trainer. Trainers have to deal with the owners as much if not more than with their dogs, and she found, as I've also found, that many dog professionals lack the people skills. Every trainer she had would, if she disagreed with them in any way, threaten her with "if you don't do it my way, you'll have to kill your dog." Now, I know my sister and I'm sure she looked each trainer in the eye and told them honestly how she felt and what she didn't like about their ideas. And I'm sure she simply expected them to talk to her about it, explain their reasoning and maybe make some compromises. Instead of doing that, instead of treating her with any respect, they simply tried to scare her into complying blindly with them. My sister, being an intelligent and independent woman who was managing the dog's behaviors so he didn't get an opportunity to bite, was eventually so frustrated that she stopped trying to find a trainer. I disagree with that, but I understand it.

So while I still cling to the belief that 'a good trainer' is the best advice, I realize that finding one is luck. I haven't had that luck yet, and I wonder how many other people are still searching.

 

[Doberluv]

Yes, people skills have so much to do with "selling" something. A good trainer should explain "where they're comin' from" to a customer, and have good, understandable reasons for doing what they're doing.

This stuff about aggression being a behavior vs. an inherited trait....about chemistry and other inheritable traits which predispose aggression, which determine outcome is what I have read from studies done by biologists. So, until I learn more, I can't really argue this concept very well. I see what is being said here, but I think it is not being broken down enough perhaps to get to the core causation.

 

[Angelique]

I view aggression to be the end result or symptom of a cause. The cause can occassionally and rarely be the result of rage syndrome, brain damage, thyroid, and genetic and breed specific sources. However, I find far too many folks jumping to these conclusions first and recommending euthanasia while avoiding the most obvious cause - which is usually frustration, instability, and owner induced imbalance.

 

[otch1]

Casablanca, I think you made a very good point. Since I specialize in behavioral modification, I find I'm working hand in hand with a vet, in some cases. I occassionally ask for bloodwork/testing for some of my clients dogs. There are so many factors involved in evaluating a dog, seretonin levels, disease, hormonal imbalances, as well as environment, breed and improper training. I have dogs that come to me on Amitriptyline, Prozac, Clomipramine... with owners who'd like to wean them off of these medications. You need to be very careful what kind of trainer you take your dog to when evaluating what type of aggression your dog has. They have to be a good listener. The owner knows their dog the best. The trainer should have some education in dealing with this, verses being "self taught". There are side effects in discontinueing some of these drugs. The "my way or the highway" attitude, is often what keeps owners from seeking help after one initial bad experience with an uneducated trainer. This is why dogs are then relagated to the backyard kennel run or eventually euthanized. Owners "give up", (training) as your sister did. We, as trainers, need to remember the owner has been dealing with this much longer than we have in training sessions, with their dog. The embarrassment of a lunging, barking, growling dog at the park, or in the car. Having to put the dog away when company comes. No neighbor kids over until the dogs securely locked in his run. It's heartbreaking for many owners. A trainer needs to be very sensitive to this and be patient. Most of all, owners need to make sure they do their homework when seeking a trainers advice. I recently had three extreme cases. A gentleman with several well trained dogs. After a day at he park, he went to load one in the back of his truck and when he turned to the side, she lunged off the tail gate and attacked him. Severe punctures on his back, then stomach and arm and a broken thumb. Another dog, a Rhodesian Rhidgeback, who for years was an active family pet. Put in the bedroom when the owners went to lunch, one Saturday, the room the dog had been going to for years "as his space". They came home to what looked like a crime scene. The door had a hole eaten thru the bottom, splintered wood everywhere, carpet and pad peeled up, blood everywhere, even splattered on the ceiling. The dogs muzzle and tongue needing stitches. A well trained pet, then unable for the owners to get his leash on and put him in a crate in the car to go to the vet without him turning on them. The third, a 6 mo. old female sheltie. Excessive barking, pacing, not responsive during training, destructive in the house, some growling. A beautiful pup on her 3rd home, when brought to me!! I've knew the other two dogs since they were puppies. Both owners treated their dogs very well, did all of the basic thru beyond basic training that made them enjoyable pets. One dog tested to have a severe biochemical imbalance. One was having seizures that went undetected. The third, was handler error. Can you guess which one was which, over the internet?? (This is a challenge for some of you trainers) Obviously, most owners are just dealing the dog that doesn't play well with others, problems with food- guarding, ect. I guess my point is to be careful about making assumptions and diagnosing causes of behaviors, over the internet. Find the most experienced trainer you can. Be open minded and don't give up. Owning a dog should enhance your life, not hamper your activities.

 

[sam]

Great post. I am curious to know which dog had which problem and what in the end happened to the dog. I hope you'll tell us.
Obviously it's important to take a very serious look at what's going on, get the whole story as well as making sure the dog is healthy-- very difficult to do over the internet, by e-mail or by phone.

I think one of the hardest thing a bout it is that regardless of the cause, there very rarely is a "quick fix" no matter what the method used to help the dog. Psychotropic drugs usually take > 6 weeks to have full or sometime s any effect. Behavior modification/CC&D takes time, LOTS of work, management and a thorough understanding by the owner.
How often do you see people who are game for all that? Isn't that often why the come to the internet. I just hope in talking about it on the internet they start on a good path and realise they need help and a lot of knowledge.

 

[otch1]

True. And I wanted everyone to guess which dog had which "issue". I'll post Monday with answer. (I've read your posts, I'll bet you can make a pretty educated guess!) Have a good weekend.

 

[sam]

No way. Aggression is NOT my thing. It's really hard to guess with so little information! Like was the confined dog used to being confined or was he usually able to come and go from his "special room" did the door close accidentally? Was there any other factors like a thunder storm? any other changes in behavior? I serioulsy don't know but I'll guess just for fun.

The room destroying dog is having seizures.
The sheltie pup is handler error
The dog that turned and attacked his owner getting put in the truck is the chemical imbalance.

OR
The sheltie pup has a chemical imbalance and the "back of the truck" dog was handler error? HMMM.