What does a reputable breeder do if...

they have a waiting list for females (or males) and a litter produces the opposite of buyer demand?

Some comments have got me thinking... reputable breeders should not have to advertise people say... Ok, I buy that (and I agree with that).

But what happens when what the buyers want is not available?

The Samoyed breeder my aunt works with had two males their litter before last. One was sold before hand and they had four families waiting for females. The other male got sold some weeks down the road, but well before they turned 8 weeks.

This time around, there were four males and one female. Again, the female is spoken for, however I'm not sure (please note I said "sure" they could very well be and I just don't know) if all four males are.

When I spoke to the breeder last, she said that she's had to put an ad in the paper before because the demand was bigger for females than males.

Is she considered an irresponsible breeder? I personally don't think so... this is a woman that knows and respects her breed very much, she has written at least one book that I know of. They do health testing and provide health guarantees...they offer assistance to the people that buy their puppies and are actively involved in the showing process.

Thoughts? And please, let's keep this nice.

Hmmm...

Well if it were me, I think BEFORE I planned the litter I would make sure I have homes lined up be the litter mainly males or females.

Though, I'm not a breeder, LOL... So I dunno...

~Tucker

I don't think so at all....we had several people on our waiting list for our last litter (more people than puppies) but we ended up having to put an ad up because several people either dropped off the list, or bought other puppies in the meantime without informing me.... we had 3 pups pre-sold, and 3 we had to put an ad up for, and there's nothing you can do in that situation. I, personally think it was meant to happen that way, because Princess passed away of an Anurism when the puppies were 4wks, and because we had puppies left, we decided to keep little Lucy. If it hadn't worked out that way, we wouldn't have our baby, Lucy.

I think it depends what happens after they get calls from people viewing the ad. If she's reputable she'll follow the same procedure that she normally would for any other pup, the ad being just a way to gather more interest.
I don't see a problem with that. As long as she's super careful like she is with all the other buyers (making assumptions here of course).

People are usually wary of breeders who place ads in papers and such because sadly that's the most common way for byb's and some puppymills to advertise for the simple reason...your average person will look to things like ads in papers to find a pet, because they don't know any better.

Anyway...the ad in itself doesn't make her disreputable IMHO.

Cass.

It always seems to go that way -- if you get people wanting females, you have a litter of males, and vice versa!

I'm one of the few that doesn't see any problem with putting an ad in the paper. When my friend had a litter earlier this year, she waited until the pups were 10 weeks, and then she placed an ad. Her reasonng was that she was keeping a pup for herself and wanted to really make sure she got the best puppy, so she kept them for a long time and didn't advertise beforehand for fear of getting someone's hopes up. My other friend had a female go into heat early and she had limited time to plan, just took her to the male and got it done.

What happens if a few people on your list want show puppies but you don't have any show puppies? And you've already done your part generating interest by word or mouth? I honestly don't see the difference between word of mouth and an ad anyways.

I don't believe that ads are bad, either, as long as the breeder does the proper screening.

My first litter, I had five pups. Four of the pups had homes, I was keeping the fifth. When my bitch was pregnant, my mom we diagnosed with an aggressive Leukemia. By the time they were three weeks old, I was driving two hours, one way, to be at her bedside while she underwent chemotherapy. My family did a WONDERFUL job socializing puppies! By the time they were seven weeks old, her prognosis was a few days to a few months. I needed to be with her. How on earth could I raise a puppy when I had to be in a completely different city with my mother. I put an ad in the paper for that last puppy, and found her a home nearby. My mom passed away less than a month later...

Sometimes breeders do put ads in papers, and we do realize that we are going to get some "questionable" inquiries. Our job is to weed those out. Sometimes we want to keep puppies close to be able to watch them grow.

I am one of the few breeders that also carefully will advertise on websites, but my theory of that is if I can get people to visit my site, learn about my breed, and learn about reputable breeders, that is a good thing. If the only people that advertise online are puppy mills or BYB's, how can they be educated about the difference between a mill/byb and a reputable breeder?

I have a website. I put my litter plans on my website. I put my puppies on my website. I AM advertising my puppies on my website, and anyone who even posts a breeding is advertising puppies. My puppies go to homes all over North America. I have three in my home province, four in the US, and many in eastern Canada.

Now, to the question of what do you do if you have more reservations for one sex over the other? There are choices. People can either switch sex, or they can wait for the next litter. My last litter, everyone wanted red Tervuren - the litter was 1/2 red, 1/2 grey. Some people got grey puppies - but they were okay with that when the time came.

As DixiesMom said, you can have an entire litter "pre-sold", but when the time comes and that litter is born, people have either gone elsewhere, or changed their minds for other reasons. Unless you have money in hand before the parents are even bred, you are never guaranteed to have homes for your pups, and even then, in further conversations with people while waiting for a puppy, some comes up in the conversation that makes you think... hmmm, do I really want them having a puppy, and sometimes the breeder changes his/her mind on whether or not a puppy is truly sold.

I do have a waiting list, I have two pups reserved from my next litter. Both homes WANT to give me deposits now, and I don't generally take deposits until I KNOW the bitch is pregnant, at the earliest.... but both families have told me that they want a pup from me, and if that means waiting for the next litter, then that's okay. In this case, I will accept their deposits.

Thank you for your responses!

Spiritus, your dogs are GORGEOUS!

I think with the Sammy's, at least in this breeders experience, the females are way more popular than the males. It could be true across the board, but I know she had several disappointed people when the last litter was born and it was only two males! Now, with this litter, again, only one female and I'm pretty sure that my aunt gets pick of the litter and well, she wants a female as it was her female that had the pups!

It must be so hard to be a breeder. It really must. I can not imagine the responsibility and the weight on your shoulders to care for these little pups...

I really got to experience some of that with the breeders last litter as we were able to socialize! Constant supervision 'round the clock, she was with the puppies or her husband was with the puppies. If they wanted to leave the house, my aunt would watch them for them while they were gone... so all of you reputable breeders out there get a big fat kudos from me!

I always had a waiting list and large litters. I'd write the sex preferance next to each name and would go from first in line . Most of the time if I didn't have their preference , they would take what was available . Who can resist a Golden puppy !? All my advertising was through word of mouth or through our Golden club.

IMO, any breeder who is breeding strictly to sell puppies is nothing more than a puppy peddler. Breeding is NOT about supplying the world with dogs, it's about improving upon your own stock in addition to improving the breed in some way therefore one must keep the pups to know if the breeding was a good one. If one doesn't want to keep the puppies for future working/show, then don't breed! A peddler is a peddler is a peddler whether it be a person or a pet store or a puppy mill.

As for placing ads in newspapers, NO reputable breeder does such a thing nor would they have too. If one doesn't have an equal number of people for males & females (for the ones the breeder isn't keeping himeself/herself), then don't breed! Breeding should NOT be a money making venture & God knows we've got enough people supplying the same breed of dogs all over the world for one more so called "reputable" breeder to put all her pups out there.

Thank you very much for labelling me an un-reputable breeder.

Every litter I have, I plan on keeping something. But, what if the pups are not what a breeder hoped them to be? Keep them anyways? We can do all the research in the world, think we have the perfect combination, and still end up with something we did not expect. Breeding is not an exact science.

And yes, some VERY reputable breeders do put ads in papers because they WANT their puppies to stay local. Now if that breeder had an ad in the paper every few months, then their reputation would come into question, but on the rare occassion, it IS necessary. Not all breeders have websites. Some breeders don't even have computers. For those, what is acceptable? How do they let people know they are around? What type of advertising IS acceptable? And why is one more acceptable over another?

We bitch and complain about puppy mills, but the only reason why puppy mills can keep producing and selling puppies is because people buy their puppies. They make themselves VISIBLE - very visible. If more reputable breeders made themselves more visible, they would have the chance to educate people. They may not sell a puppy, but they can EDUCATE - and to me, that is most important. Education about what puppy mills truly are, how the dogs are kept, what people are TRULY getting when they get that mill-baby, is what needs to be done. If I can stop ONE person from buying a puppy mill puppy, then I have done my job. If I can teach ONE person what a puppy mill truly is, then I have done my job.

Spiritus, don't let it get you d own. I didn't think you were irresponsible.

So the breeder should keep every single dog? That doesn't make sense.

But, I do see your point. However, this breeder does not breed just to "supply the world with dogs."

My aunt's dog was bred with the top Samoyed male... his owner is VERY specific about the bitches. If they do not pass her qualifications, they don't produce marshemellows, end of story.

However, not every dog of every single litter is going to be show worthy. Am I not correct? Which is why there are pet quality puppies, sold as such.

Are you a breeder?

Personally, I would never advertise my future puppies in the paper, even if I didn't have enough homes lined up. If people are looking in the newspaper for a dog then they have not done their research in the first place and I don't want those kinds of owners for my puppies. If I couldn't find homes then I would keep the pups. Afterall, I am breeding this litter for myself, to produce my next show dog and not for the purpose of selling puppies. There are better places to advertise, like local breed clubs and breed specific magazines etc.

I imagine, very rarely that reputable breeders do list their puppies in the paper. In this event, I feel that the screening process of new owners should be above and beyond.

She has only done it once and it was years ago... their screening process is quite long and extensive.

Showpug, why do you think that people who look in the papers for a quality dog have not done research? I'm just curious.. I know there are a lot of BYB's, but someone like me would be able to tell the difference. How different is it than finiding a breeder online?

I'm going to share a little bit about my experience of "before purebred dogs".

As a child, we had a dog here and there. Gus was a chihuahua cross that we got from the pound. He died of old age. Then there was Penny, a cock-a-poo that my parents bought - and promptly sold when she repeated pooped in the house (my mother couldn't handle that). I tried to tell her, at twelve years of age and knowing nothing about dogs other that that I LOVED them, that Penny was too young to know that she had to go outside. Mom didn't listen and resold her (ACK).

My next dog was a BC from the humane society - I was 14. Lady was a great dog, housetrained when we got her. She was my best friend. I did everything with her, told her my secrets, walked her, trained her, brushed her, loved her. She slept on my bed. We had no idea about crates. Lady managed to get out of our yard after two years, and we never did find her, even after putting ads in the paper, and regularly checking the SPCA.

Then there was life without dogs in our home. BUT, I made friends with every dog in the neighbourhood. Loved them, walked them, played with them, cried on their shoulders. There was one neighbour with a black lab named Duke. Duke was awesome, and I was with him as a teenaged as much as I possibly could be.

I grew up never knowing about puppy mills, never knowing about Breeders... when my parents did look for a dog, it was in the paper. But then, there was no internet back then either.

When I was 30-something, I was finally in a place to get a dog again. This time I wanted a Rottie. But, there are so many BYB Rottie's around here - I still didn't know that this was "bad", but I knew that with a breed as powerful as the Rottie, that I wanted a dog from someone who had been breeding for awhile, that knew their dogs and the temperaments they produced. That is when I was introduced to the world of the reputable breeder. I read, I researched, and read some more - learning and learning and learning. I soaked it all in like a sponge. All the myths I had learned from a child disappeared and I learned a new truth - the truth about reputable breeders, BYBs, and puppy mills. I ended up not getting a Rottie - I found the Tervuren.

My point is that there are a whole lot of GOOD people out there that DON'T KNOW. How many people on this board got their puppies from a BYB or a pet store, and now realize that was what it was? We don't call them bad for getting a puppy - but we are happy that they are here, and that they are learning! And that maybe they can help their friends and neighbours, or maybe even someone else that visits this board NOT make that purchase when THEY look at that cute puppy in a pet store.

I don't advertise litter plans or upcoming litters in the newspaper - but I do in my breed club newsletter, and I have only every advertised a puppy in the paper that ONE time that I talked about originally. That was extreme circumstances - my mother was DYING!

The only dog I'd buy on line would be from Petfinder.... a rescue .

Because you don't find quality bred dogs or breeders in the paper (the majority of the time.) People who have done their research know this! Quality breeders don't have to advertise in the paper and people who have done a lot of research should not be looking there for their dogs. See, you pick your breeder first and then WAIT for your puppy. When you buy from the paper, you seek out the puppy first and just stumble upon whatever breeder happens to have them available...

With breeders that have websites on line, you can see what they have bred and get information about their breeding program. I don't belive in buying online though. I think it's okay to stumble across a show breeder's website online and then go from there, but I would never buy from online classifieds etc.

I'm with you, Showpug !!!

im with spiritus on this, i dont see the big problem in advertising anywhere when certian situations which sometimes arise do so. so long as the breeder is just as strict with the screening process...

sometimes things happen, one of the people wanting a male from vixies litter got diagnosed with cancer and given a year to live when the pups were 5 weeks old. she would have been a wonderfull mommy, but fate had a different plan for her. i was lucky because a friend of the families had fallen in love with the one that lady was taking and is a great chi mommy so i didnt have to advertise for fresh aplications. but occasionally situations do arise that we have no control over. i always suggest people planning a litter have extra names on their waiting list just in case, but occasionally things can go wrong at such last minute...

as i said, as long as the screening process for any potential owner be the same and potential owners be carefully selected, i dont see the problem in cases of extreems.

I am with Showpug and Grammy!