Teenage Big Game Hunter...
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Wow, yeah, I have a ton of pictures of me with dead animals. There's one of me holding like, 10 ducks that I shot down. Not to mention all the fish pictures.... I was pretty happy in all of them. Not because I killed them, but because I caught them.
Even the ones I release, I take a picture and then release them.
Even the ones I release, I take a picture and then release them.
Yeah just to clarify, I can understand happy/excited photos with the dead/tranquilized animal.
In the two discussions I've seen though, people seem to accept the conservation reasons for the animals being killed, but they think she shouldn't have wanted to do it or she should be sad/regretful/not wanting photos.
It's not the act so much as her perceived attitude that gets people. (From what I gather).
In the two discussions I've seen though, people seem to accept the conservation reasons for the animals being killed, but they think she shouldn't have wanted to do it or she should be sad/regretful/not wanting photos.
It's not the act so much as her perceived attitude that gets people. (From what I gather).
The same people post pictures of themselves at parties or family gatherings or Thanksgiving dinners with the butchered, boiled, set on fire carcasses of once living things smiling and celebrating and joyfully eating them.
People in general make crazy distinctions here. I'm aware that a fair amount of them are probably vegetarians, but rationally speaking they are a bunch of vegetable killers too! Poor plants.
People in general make crazy distinctions here. I'm aware that a fair amount of them are probably vegetarians, but rationally speaking they are a bunch of vegetable killers too! Poor plants.
Hey maybe that makes me a hypocrite but I am NOT going to sit around to pretend that a big part of this isn't because of the species she is posing next to.
To me a tiger,leopard etc.. > chicken/deer/turkey/fish
They are all animals but some I care about more than others. That's just the reality of the situation.
"Why are people so upset that they eat dogs in certain countries, pigs are as smart as dogs but we eat them!"
BECAUSE BECAUSE! Because it's an emotional, complex, social and cultural issue that isn't based on rationality or black/white.
(for the record I think posing next to an animal you just killed is always off-putting regardless of it's type, but that's heavily personal too)
Tigers (and the rest of the large game) are in many areas endangered, protected intelligent large beautiful creatures with family structures and disney movies and national geographic documentaries etc..etc..etc.. the idea that they are worth MORE and seeing one dead causes us to FEEL MORE is heavily socially engrained, again that's just a reality.
So if I (even rationally let's say the tiger was rampaging a town and they were over populated in that area and people were going to eat the meat) WAS the one designated to kill one I PERSONALLY would feel awful for doing so because it would be killing such a magnificent intelligent animal and especially bad because yes, I respect them more than I do a chicken or cow or other animals we routinely eat.
I can't imagine taking joy in killing ANY animal at my own hand, because I CERTAINLY wouldn't want a souvenir of it
Do I eat turkey at thanksgiving? Yup.
Do I see that animal alive at some farm, pick it out, shoot it and take a picture with it's dead body? NOPE.
It's not rational, AT ALL, and I don't make the claim that it is. My feelings are rarely rational.
Seeing these pictures make my stomach turn (hypocritically, even as someone who routinely eats meat), I wouldn't want to be friends with this girl, I think it's awful she finds pleasure in this.
That doesn't mean I believe she is an awful human being or her actions should be illegal.
It's also a reality that if I did have to hunt and kill my own meat, I'd very likely be a vegetarian lol
(although for the record I still don't think food can be "cruelty free" when it's farmed by exploited workers so....yea..it's kind of a tough time all around lol)
To me a tiger,leopard etc.. > chicken/deer/turkey/fish
They are all animals but some I care about more than others. That's just the reality of the situation.
"Why are people so upset that they eat dogs in certain countries, pigs are as smart as dogs but we eat them!"
BECAUSE BECAUSE! Because it's an emotional, complex, social and cultural issue that isn't based on rationality or black/white.
(for the record I think posing next to an animal you just killed is always off-putting regardless of it's type, but that's heavily personal too)
Tigers (and the rest of the large game) are in many areas endangered, protected intelligent large beautiful creatures with family structures and disney movies and national geographic documentaries etc..etc..etc.. the idea that they are worth MORE and seeing one dead causes us to FEEL MORE is heavily socially engrained, again that's just a reality.
So if I (even rationally let's say the tiger was rampaging a town and they were over populated in that area and people were going to eat the meat) WAS the one designated to kill one I PERSONALLY would feel awful for doing so because it would be killing such a magnificent intelligent animal and especially bad because yes, I respect them more than I do a chicken or cow or other animals we routinely eat.
I can't imagine taking joy in killing ANY animal at my own hand, because I CERTAINLY wouldn't want a souvenir of it
Do I eat turkey at thanksgiving? Yup.
Do I see that animal alive at some farm, pick it out, shoot it and take a picture with it's dead body? NOPE.
It's not rational, AT ALL, and I don't make the claim that it is. My feelings are rarely rational.
Seeing these pictures make my stomach turn (hypocritically, even as someone who routinely eats meat), I wouldn't want to be friends with this girl, I think it's awful she finds pleasure in this.
That doesn't mean I believe she is an awful human being or her actions should be illegal.
It's also a reality that if I did have to hunt and kill my own meat, I'd very likely be a vegetarian lol
(although for the record I still don't think food can be "cruelty free" when it's farmed by exploited workers so....yea..it's kind of a tough time all around lol)
Fran-
I don't think you're wrong. And my posts aren't meant to imply that. Like I said, personally I dislike the hunting of those sort of animals. I also agree that I'm a hundred times more likely to be OK with eating chicken or salmon than Lion or Shark.
I also wouldn't ever find myself hunting them for sport or photo op. Heck, not even to eat. As far as I'm concerned there's plenty of chicken, and yes I do value Lions more.
That being said, my comments just are in response to people saying she is a bad person, or doing something wrong. To use your own example, it'd be, to me, like saying that people who eat dogs are bad, horrible people. There's people in India thinking we're bad, horrible people for eating cows. Are either group wrong, or bad people? No, we just have different moral compasses.
We don't have to *like* what this person does, but demonizing her (and am not implying you did, I don't want to go back and read and don't really care whether you did or not, I'm just speaking in general) based on our own moral compass is rather unfair.
I don't think you're wrong. And my posts aren't meant to imply that. Like I said, personally I dislike the hunting of those sort of animals. I also agree that I'm a hundred times more likely to be OK with eating chicken or salmon than Lion or Shark.
I also wouldn't ever find myself hunting them for sport or photo op. Heck, not even to eat. As far as I'm concerned there's plenty of chicken, and yes I do value Lions more.
That being said, my comments just are in response to people saying she is a bad person, or doing something wrong. To use your own example, it'd be, to me, like saying that people who eat dogs are bad, horrible people. There's people in India thinking we're bad, horrible people for eating cows. Are either group wrong, or bad people? No, we just have different moral compasses.
We don't have to *like* what this person does, but demonizing her (and am not implying you did, I don't want to go back and read and don't really care whether you did or not, I'm just speaking in general) based on our own moral compass is rather unfair.
If she was posing grinning ear to ear with arm loads if stray dogs and cats she killed I wonder what they reactions would be. I mean, they are overpopulated in many areas. Or if maybe she was out picking off Chincoteague ponies on the island...
Honestly, as far as the 4-H thing goes, I don't know many farm kids who take so much pleasure in killing the animals they raised, and I've been around lots of them. The attitude is more a "get it done" kind if thing.
I'd be curious to see how the money they pay is actually distributed and the actual data behind the claims she makes about the animals she's hunting.
Honestly, as far as the 4-H thing goes, I don't know many farm kids who take so much pleasure in killing the animals they raised, and I've been around lots of them. The attitude is more a "get it done" kind if thing.
I'd be curious to see how the money they pay is actually distributed and the actual data behind the claims she makes about the animals she's hunting.
In America, people would be horrified and disgusted. I would be too. In other countries they'd say "good riddance to the nuisances". Who's to say which is right? It's wrong to me so I don't do it. Here in America where a lot of roaming animals may be someone's pet, it's wrong to do it in this country. Not to mention there are plenty of other options that it's not necessary to begin with.
If we didn't judge using our own moral compass, imagine what the world would be like. Anything would go! That's why we have a moral compass to begin with!
Like I said earlier.... Hunting is one thing. Hunting a trophy is another. I'm pretty sure people have hunted for other humans in history. Maybe those people who have committed crimes (and again, some countries you can be stoned for adultery... If we are thinking about moral compasses!!)
I don't think the "I do because I can" is necessarily good enough reason to do something all the time.
She did it because she can. I could too... I could pay to hunt a human if I really wanted to I'm sure... Just because I can, doesn't mean I should! There has to be lines in the sand somewhere. We aren't all going to agree where though.
Like I said earlier.... Hunting is one thing. Hunting a trophy is another. I'm pretty sure people have hunted for other humans in history. Maybe those people who have committed crimes (and again, some countries you can be stoned for adultery... If we are thinking about moral compasses!!)
I don't think the "I do because I can" is necessarily good enough reason to do something all the time.
She did it because she can. I could too... I could pay to hunt a human if I really wanted to I'm sure... Just because I can, doesn't mean I should! There has to be lines in the sand somewhere. We aren't all going to agree where though.
That's not really true. Judging in a situation where hypocrisy is abundantly clear is not the same as judging where absolutes do exist.
Hunting an human is never okay, because it infringes on that person's rights.
Criticizing people for killing chickens while eating chicken? Yeah the person doesn't really have any grounds to judge.
Recognizing that is necessary, otherwise you could make the argument that, for the sake of comparison, it's okay for one group of people to forbid another group of people to marry because it doesn't agree with their morals. Or it's okay for people to forbid us from eating pork/cow/whatever.
That, I do agree with.
Hunting an human is never okay, because it infringes on that person's rights.
Criticizing people for killing chickens while eating chicken? Yeah the person doesn't really have any grounds to judge.
Recognizing that is necessary, otherwise you could make the argument that, for the sake of comparison, it's okay for one group of people to forbid another group of people to marry because it doesn't agree with their morals. Or it's okay for people to forbid us from eating pork/cow/whatever.
That, I do agree with.
IIRC this girl is hunting on a reserve in South Africa, which probably means a very large but fenced area. I don't know about money going to villagers; they get tourism and food. The money would go to the landowner (and maybe the government), who would put it towards anti-poaching efforts and game management. I believe the rhino in the pic is tranquilized for veterinary care after being attacked by lions. They kind of stuff costs money, as do anti-poaching efforts. I know in some places they actually bring in ex-military from the USA and UK.
http://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/trophy_hunting
I am definitely "speciesist," I don't mind seeing a deer killed but I don't like to think of lions being killed (I said as much in the wild animal buffet thread.. it's the king of beasts!!). At the same time I recognize that killing a "surplus" lion is no more wrong than killing a "surplus" deer. There is a difference between feelings and rational thinking and when making serious judgments about people or situations I definitely believe in striving to be fair and consistent instead of relying on knee-jerk reaction.
What makes me sick is when people think their feelings are more important than conservation efforts, like with the exotic animal hunts in Texas. If hunting is how desperately-needed money is entering the system then be happy that there are people who enjoy hunting.
http://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/trophy_hunting
I am definitely "speciesist," I don't mind seeing a deer killed but I don't like to think of lions being killed (I said as much in the wild animal buffet thread.. it's the king of beasts!!). At the same time I recognize that killing a "surplus" lion is no more wrong than killing a "surplus" deer. There is a difference between feelings and rational thinking and when making serious judgments about people or situations I definitely believe in striving to be fair and consistent instead of relying on knee-jerk reaction.
What makes me sick is when people think their feelings are more important than conservation efforts, like with the exotic animal hunts in Texas. If hunting is how desperately-needed money is entering the system then be happy that there are people who enjoy hunting.
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This type of "hunting" isn't something I personally want to be involved with or like, but I have family members who have gone on African safari hunts like this.
My aunt shot a zebra and now has a zebra rug. They prepared the best cut for her to eat at the place, and the rest of the zebra meat went to the local village for people to eat. My uncle shot some water buffalo and different gazelles. Same thing.
Without hunting preserves, you have incredibly poor communities of people without a lot of resources. The temptation to become poachers is really strong. If you can kill an elephant, cut off its tusks, and feed your family for 6 months is there really much of a decision to make?
There's also the option of them killing off/driving away all the native animals, especially lions and other predators, so that they can raise cattle instead. Because people got to eat.
With hunting preserves they can maintain populations of native species, including predators, because they're getting money from maintaining the preserve. Instead of becoming poachers, the wildlife is an asset to protect and they can get jobs as hunting guides, or protecting the animals from poachers.
And when the herd is being professionally managed, they can select which animals are "harvested" and which are left. I saw an article about a huge male rhino someone paid a lot of money to kill as a trophy. People freaked out about it, but the rhino had gotten really aggressive and actually killed other rhinos, including a pregnant female. It was better for the health of the herd for him to be killed. And since someone was wiling to pay a lot of money to do it legally, that benefited the local economy a lot more than paying money to a local hunter to do it.
As far as them being threatened, legalized regulated hunting actually helps tremendously in species recovery. It opens up vast swaths of private land as viable habitat where they will be protected from poachers. When hunting of white rhinos was legalized there was a dramatic jump in population.
http://conservationmagazine.org/2014/01/can-trophy-hunting-reconciled-conservation/
My aunt shot a zebra and now has a zebra rug. They prepared the best cut for her to eat at the place, and the rest of the zebra meat went to the local village for people to eat. My uncle shot some water buffalo and different gazelles. Same thing.
Without hunting preserves, you have incredibly poor communities of people without a lot of resources. The temptation to become poachers is really strong. If you can kill an elephant, cut off its tusks, and feed your family for 6 months is there really much of a decision to make?
There's also the option of them killing off/driving away all the native animals, especially lions and other predators, so that they can raise cattle instead. Because people got to eat.
With hunting preserves they can maintain populations of native species, including predators, because they're getting money from maintaining the preserve. Instead of becoming poachers, the wildlife is an asset to protect and they can get jobs as hunting guides, or protecting the animals from poachers.
And when the herd is being professionally managed, they can select which animals are "harvested" and which are left. I saw an article about a huge male rhino someone paid a lot of money to kill as a trophy. People freaked out about it, but the rhino had gotten really aggressive and actually killed other rhinos, including a pregnant female. It was better for the health of the herd for him to be killed. And since someone was wiling to pay a lot of money to do it legally, that benefited the local economy a lot more than paying money to a local hunter to do it.
As far as them being threatened, legalized regulated hunting actually helps tremendously in species recovery. It opens up vast swaths of private land as viable habitat where they will be protected from poachers. When hunting of white rhinos was legalized there was a dramatic jump in population.
http://conservationmagazine.org/2014/01/can-trophy-hunting-reconciled-conservation/
I disagree. My husband is an avid hunter of whitetail deer and waterfowl. The deer population here is terrible. They wreak havoc on our crops and are just out of control. He hunts for meat to feed our family, but he definitely hunts for the largest buck he can find! Everything is legal and he shoots a handful of nice does and normally uses both of his buck tags. It would be weird if he just shot immature bucks willynilly. Mature bucks are very smart and are difficult to hunt. It takes a lot of time and planning. Not only that, iirc they will mate more frequently than immature boys.
Waterfowl are different as size isn't a big issue with them. It's more can you reach bag limit. Turkey, yeah. They try to get the longest beard and spurs they can. Still good eating!
You bet we take photos of them and you bet they end up on the wall. It's norm here.
I don't like reserve hunts.. I think that true hunting is done with a completely wild animal who is not overly comfortable with the human race. I don't think what this gal is doing is WRONG, but I don't necessarily like it just because it doesn't seem like the hunt is in the animals favor.
Waterfowl are different as size isn't a big issue with them. It's more can you reach bag limit. Turkey, yeah. They try to get the longest beard and spurs they can. Still good eating!
You bet we take photos of them and you bet they end up on the wall. It's norm here.
I don't like reserve hunts.. I think that true hunting is done with a completely wild animal who is not overly comfortable with the human race. I don't think what this gal is doing is WRONG, but I don't necessarily like it just because it doesn't seem like the hunt is in the animals favor.
I understand the "joy" in hunting. I'm not sure how this girl hunts, but when I hunt, I stalk my deer (all I've ever hunted) and the deer has every chance to get away. They're wild, they're over populated, and we eat what I kill.
It's the thrill of the chase, the chance that the "prey" might outsmart you and get away (it happens ALL the time. Never did get this buck I was hunting.) And yes, every time I make a kill, I thank the animal for giving it's life to feed my family. I got two deer last year. They've feed us and kept us from having to buy store bought beef for nearly a year. If I'd gotten the last deer I saw (she saw me too, and got away. I never shoot unless I'm sure of my shot) then we wouldn't have to buy any red meat at all. As it is, the meat we have left might make it until next hunting season, but I won't be here.
I always feel a mixture of I guess pride, and sorrow. I've killed a beautiful creature. But I'm feeding my family. I outsmarted an animal who is perfectly capable of outsmarting me, outrunning me, out hiding me. So to be proud of that isn't a sin.
I know people who refuse to believe any sort of hunting is okay. I also know people who would rather starve than live off of hunted meat. All I know is that if something happened, I would be able to hunt and provide for my family.
It's the thrill of the chase, the chance that the "prey" might outsmart you and get away (it happens ALL the time. Never did get this buck I was hunting.) And yes, every time I make a kill, I thank the animal for giving it's life to feed my family. I got two deer last year. They've feed us and kept us from having to buy store bought beef for nearly a year. If I'd gotten the last deer I saw (she saw me too, and got away. I never shoot unless I'm sure of my shot) then we wouldn't have to buy any red meat at all. As it is, the meat we have left might make it until next hunting season, but I won't be here.
I always feel a mixture of I guess pride, and sorrow. I've killed a beautiful creature. But I'm feeding my family. I outsmarted an animal who is perfectly capable of outsmarting me, outrunning me, out hiding me. So to be proud of that isn't a sin.
I know people who refuse to believe any sort of hunting is okay. I also know people who would rather starve than live off of hunted meat. All I know is that if something happened, I would be able to hunt and provide for my family.
THIS^^^ 100% and then some. We hunt and honestly is something that Tyler and I enjoy doing together. We never waste what we hunt and everything we don't or can't eat goes to the dogs.
In saying that I do know people who trophy hunt, they only go for the biggest buck or whatever animal they are hunting, but they also use all the meat, even if that means they have to turn all the meat in to hamburger because the animal was so old.
In saying that I do know people who trophy hunt, they only go for the biggest buck or whatever animal they are hunting, but they also use all the meat, even if that means they have to turn all the meat in to hamburger because the animal was so old.
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I think people who judge this girl for the most part have no idea what they're talking about, honestly.
I think it's fine. Maybe not the wisest decision to publicize a photo like that, but in that situation I might want to share with my family and friends. (I most likely wouldn't personally kill a lion ever, because of the cultural reasons mentioned previously in this thread. I'm not really a big-game-hunter type...I might kill a deer or cattle for food but I think I'd mainly stick to stuff I could beat in hand to hand combat).
Also, I'd feel better about eating that lion than some supermarket chop meat. Happy wild free lion that roamed blissfully ruling the savannah, and not a cow that lived in its own filth shot up with steroids and drugs til it got tortured to death.
On the other hand, I bet the lion's family was very sad. Wild turkey families don't really mourn their losses.
I think it's fine. Maybe not the wisest decision to publicize a photo like that, but in that situation I might want to share with my family and friends. (I most likely wouldn't personally kill a lion ever, because of the cultural reasons mentioned previously in this thread. I'm not really a big-game-hunter type...I might kill a deer or cattle for food but I think I'd mainly stick to stuff I could beat in hand to hand combat).
Also, I'd feel better about eating that lion than some supermarket chop meat. Happy wild free lion that roamed blissfully ruling the savannah, and not a cow that lived in its own filth shot up with steroids and drugs til it got tortured to death.
On the other hand, I bet the lion's family was very sad. Wild turkey families don't really mourn their losses.
Than you for posting that-it's definately a complex issue: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/should-trophy-hunting-of-lions-be-banned-155657735/
I guess I was born without the hunting gene--more of a gatherer maybe? I would be fine with DH hunting deer for food (and have encouraged it, although he's just not that outdoorsie), and I'm fine with people killing highly populated nuisance animals like raccoons and wild hogs.
I used to work cleaning houses with a woman who deer hunted. We worked in a area with a lot of deer and one day we were cleaning a bedroom, looked out the window and saw a pair of deer grazing in the yard. This woman went on and on for minutes about how beautiful the deer were, and then went on to say how she wished she had her rifle with her right then. I just don't get that. It doesn't mean that I think people who hunt are bad, or that this young woman deserves death threats, but killing something you admire and find beautiful and majestic and then being thrilled and proud of it is something I just can't wrap my mind around. *puts flame suit on*
I guess I was born without the hunting gene--more of a gatherer maybe? I would be fine with DH hunting deer for food (and have encouraged it, although he's just not that outdoorsie), and I'm fine with people killing highly populated nuisance animals like raccoons and wild hogs.
I used to work cleaning houses with a woman who deer hunted. We worked in a area with a lot of deer and one day we were cleaning a bedroom, looked out the window and saw a pair of deer grazing in the yard. This woman went on and on for minutes about how beautiful the deer were, and then went on to say how she wished she had her rifle with her right then. I just don't get that. It doesn't mean that I think people who hunt are bad, or that this young woman deserves death threats, but killing something you admire and find beautiful and majestic and then being thrilled and proud of it is something I just can't wrap my mind around. *puts flame suit on*
I'm not sure the answer to that exactly, but for a bit of perspective I do plan to small time hobby farm and raise meat for my family some day.
Now, do I want to raise animals I find ugly and dislike? No, not really. Instead of creepy california rabbits with their weird red eyes, I plan to raise silver fox rabbits and champagne d'argent, maybe standard rex. Why? I think they're beautiful. I also love eating bunny and look forward to having a steady supply of healthy home raised meat for my family.
Same thing with fish. Instead of raising catfish, I'd like to be set up for trout. Trout are prettier. I think they taste better, and I'd probably enjoy raising them more than catfish.
And sheep. I love lamb. I don't like the look of fleece breeds. I want hair sheep, specifically painted desert sheep because they are gorgeous and have cool horns. But I still look forward to eating them.
Weirdly enough, I LOVE bacon but have a very strong dislike of live pigs. I really would rather not raise a pig. If I can get away with it, I'd totally trade with someone else for home raised bacon.
Maybe it's coming from the same place as your boss?
Now, do I want to raise animals I find ugly and dislike? No, not really. Instead of creepy california rabbits with their weird red eyes, I plan to raise silver fox rabbits and champagne d'argent, maybe standard rex. Why? I think they're beautiful. I also love eating bunny and look forward to having a steady supply of healthy home raised meat for my family.
Same thing with fish. Instead of raising catfish, I'd like to be set up for trout. Trout are prettier. I think they taste better, and I'd probably enjoy raising them more than catfish.
And sheep. I love lamb. I don't like the look of fleece breeds. I want hair sheep, specifically painted desert sheep because they are gorgeous and have cool horns. But I still look forward to eating them.
Weirdly enough, I LOVE bacon but have a very strong dislike of live pigs. I really would rather not raise a pig. If I can get away with it, I'd totally trade with someone else for home raised bacon.
Maybe it's coming from the same place as your boss?