Questions for bully & APBTA 'type' owners

There weren't really a whole lot of injuries in old style dogfighting and very rarely did fights end in a fatality. Dog fighting as it was originally intended and done was no more dangerous than herding and hunting with your dog. That's something a lot of people don't know or understand. They think dog fighting and imagine a throng of people cheering on two dogs that are chewing each other to pieces. While that may be the case today, it wasn't the case back then, at least not for proper dogmen. (In no way am I defending dog fighting, simply educating the difference between the way it was done back then, and done now.)


Losing your mind. Lol.

Well I suspect since I asked you point blank about dog fighting you are talking about me. The reason I asked for clarification was not to entrap you but to avoid assumptions before making any further statements, but if you have no intention of replying then I'll just carry on.

The thing about the idea that dog fighting is needed to somehow preserve the breed (not saying you or anyone else here actually believes this, although I'm sort of left to infer it in the absence of anything to the contrary) is that the ends don't always justify the means.

I don't care how much dog fighters care for their dogs or shed tears or regret their injuries or how "different" dog fighting used to be, those individual dogs are made to participate in a "sport" with the sole purpose of trying to physically beat another dog in a fight... they're inevitably either going to injure or be injured, for real, and possibly quite severely.

It is different than any other sport that dogs participate in by virtue of its intent. And is preserving some elusive and slippery idea of "gameness" in the breed as a whole really worth throwing some individuals under the bus? If you (general you) are turning a blind eye to or sort of passively supporting dog fighting because you believe your breed somehow benefits from it... well, I don't even know what to say about that.

As far as injured dogs, I don't believe any sane person wants to see their dog injured. But sometimes that's a possible outcome in the sport/line of work.

I'll never forget the day that a 350 lb boar got a tusk up under DD's cut vest basically impaling him. Even though he was wearing a cut collar and vest, he was still injured. He got flung off, and I ran to grab him, while the other catch dogs contained the hog (there were several of us that day), and I picked him up and rushed him to the car to get him to the clinic asap. He ended up having a punctured lung, and was pretty seriously injured. It took months of recover to get him healed up, but before you knew it, he was ancy and going bezerk wanting to do something. After taking time off to heal, and some more time off to get back into shape, I put him back in his vest and collar and we went hunting once more. He loved it. He was a dog that had to have a job, and he enjoyed hog work. No, I didn't like seeing my dogs injured and having to scratches and wounds and suture/staple them up, but that was a risk we all took. I did my best to make sure they were in tip-top shape, properly nourished, and wore protective equipment. But I'm not going to bubble-wrap my dogs and keep them on the couch while serving them dinner on a silver platter all so they won't get hurt. Dogs get seriously hurt playing fetch. I'd rather let my dogs live, and do something they enjoy, than cause them to be constantly frustrated and agitated from lack having something to do. Some may be content with obedience. Others are not. Some have no desire to go after hogs 5+ times their size, so it's wonderful to find another venue. But I won't use the risk of injury to avoid working them.

That doesn't make me love my dogs any less, nor does it make me a lesser dog owner than someone else.

Heck, a vet I worked with had approx. 55 Running Walker Hounds that her husband hunted with. He's a big hunter, and much of their life revolves around it (well, his mostly). Their dogs are working stock. They don't sleep in comfy dog beds in indoor kennels. They aren't fed homemade dog food. But they also aren't neglected or treated cruelly in any way, nor are they loved any less. But face it: not all dogs are pets. Nor should they be forced to be seen that way.

Sorry you took it that way. Actually, I hadn't responded to your question yet, as it was next on my "to do" list.

So far, no one has been catty in this thread, but I feel it has the propensity to head in that direction quite quickly. I was just trying to give a warning that I will bow out and no longer participate if it came to that. Again, I apologize if you took it as a response to your question.

Hunting is different by its intent, though. The intent is to catch prey/food and while there is a risk of injury, getting injured or injuring another dog is not the whole point of the sport. Hunting has redeeming value, which changes the whole risk/benefit picture.

Green Acres is the place to be............

The pure and simple fact is my pet bull can send a dog to the emergency room in a whoopin' 30 seconds, he would have totally pwnd these game dogs that fight for far longer. To claim there was minimal injury to the dogs is... comical.

actually most every dog used on anything smaller than a hog or bear uses this same technique. coonhounds, curs, foxhounds, terriers, & sighthounds all do this. some dogs will even try to do it on bigger game like hogs & deer. some dogs that hunt multiple species will do it only on smaller game but not on big stuff. nothing exceptional about the technique.

Oh, no need to apologize. I wasn't upset by it or anything, just figured that was someplace you didn't want to go and went on with my thoughts.

I'm not trying to be snarky in any of my responses, either, just FYI.

LOL Oh I forgot to add this argument. My dog was attack by a shepherd and it only took seconds for him to be hurt. Now I do admit my dog was also attack by a Saint Bernard and had no injury, but if it had been longer he definitely would have. While injuries like a missing eye, broken legs, etc may not have been extremely common, the idea that they don't get hurt in fights is comical.

I think the real offense here is that people would do that to their beloved dog in the first place.

are the bullmastiff & the english mastiff two different breeds?

Yes.

My rat terrier is from Deckers lines, her uncle hunted and was impaled and lost a leg. He went on to hunt again because that is what he did. He was impaled again and died of internal injury.

I do not find qualm with that, I'm saddened by it but I don't see it the same way as dog fighting where the entire goal is to harm or be harmed.

My pit bull has a horrible knee, I still exercise her and jump her in dock dogs. When she's done we drug her up and walk her out. She is basically a tripod dog most days and the time is getting closer all the time of do we get her a wheelchair (she'd either loathe it or play doggy murderball with glee) or do we put her down when she can no long get up? Until we have to make that choice she'll keep jumping, it is what she loves.

Arnold loves to fight, I don't allow it, he's hurt too many dogs and had a few injuries himself. I cannot see the two as the same no matter how hard I try to rationalize it. Maybe you can help me, hypothetically?

Not just no, OH HELL NO! I've had a wave of nausea hit anytime Bimmer, Buffy, Shiva or Kharma has gone into close quarters moving cattle.

In my view of the world, there's no place for matching dogs. I don't understand how anyone could love a dog -- as the men who talked to me obviously did, and even demonstrated by the loving way they caressed Tallulah and played with her -- and watch it fight, but that's me. Just because I don't understand it doesn't make it untrue.

I'm sure there were plenty of callous ones out there, just like there are plenty of callous breeders out there right now, but they aren't going to walk up to pet a dog and start talking about their dogs.

the GOAL of matching was NOT to harm or be harmed. the GOAL was to prove gameness the violence & injury were a necessary risk in order to achieve the goal.

In a dog fight, most those dogs wouldn't fight like that though. I've seen dogs who would bite and shake a prey animal dead, but in a dog fight it is more snapping than the bite and shake.

This is actually a difficult question to answer in general, and for me personally, because it requires a black and white answer as it's worded.

I know how the breed came to be, and I know the dogs that were created because of the process. I love those dogs. I don't love dog fighting. I love the dogs.

Even if dog fighting were legal, I would not take any part in it.

I think the "obvious" answer would be "yes, it's needed to keep the dogs as original as was created". But it's not so cut and dry. Obviously not every dog bred was an actual pit dog. Many relied solely on their bloodlines to make them an integral part of the pedigree, yet somewhere within that line, these "untouched" dogs were bred back to actual pit dogs.

On the other hand, what if people strived to retain their physical characteristics as close as possible to standard while working them in other areas such as hog hunting? The biggest problem is not everyone lives in an area to hunt, and even more people think that in itself is cruel.

If people were truly striving to keep the dogs as close to the standard as possible without actually fighting them, I'd think we'd been in a far better place than we are today. But standards have been forgotten. Even worse, they've been purposefully ignored in order to make room to fulfill the personal desires and whims of individual people. Breeding for red or blue coats has taken priority. Breeding for square, blocky conformation has taken priority. Breeding for 80 lb weight ranges (and even higher) has taken priority. Breeding for blue ribbons (most of which are basically "bought" by owners only going to shows where certain judges are known to like and reward their dogs, and avoiding other shows where judges are different likes and criteria) has taken priority. And breeding for "nice" dogs out of pity has taken priority. But above all else, breeding for money reigns supreme, because all is forsaken when someone is only out to make an easy dollar. And the thing is, all are "right" to those engaging in those practices.

If everyone would get on the same page in order to save these dogs, and keep them as close to the original standard as possible, then I think the APBT would survive with as little damage as possible. But people don't want to do that. They want to breed out the DA. They want to change the looks to fit a specific fashionable image.



....and with even all that, I'm not sure if I even answered your question. I hope I did. lol

the logical extension of that is that Marine moms don't love their children because they "let" them go off & risk their lives & limbs. likewise Marine wives for their husbands.
clearly it is possible to love someone or something and allow them/it to endure hardship, injury & risk.

That is illogical because humans are capable of complex thought processes.

Arnold loves to fight but Arnold cannot understand that he may or may not come back alive next time. Furthermore, it is wrong how many dogs and animals he has damaged, it was senseless violence. Not to mention the legal backfiring that was a strong potential in every case.

We are wardens of these animals, we own them, we make their choices for them, we either put them in a box or not. I should hope your familial relationships are not the same.

Not even remotely the same. Not even CLOSE.

The child in question is making an informed choice. What choice does a dog get?

no most of them do use SOME hold & shake when kennel/dogbox fights break out. and a fight between two terriers is almost exactly like a fight between two pit bulldogs just w/ smaller dogs. fights bewteen wolfing greys & stags are fairly common and extremely dangerous because they do know how to kill each other by getting a good grip in the right place. the more common risk w/ fights between these types of dogs is that they rarely involve only two dogs.