Incident with my Lab today.

She also said she was not there to witness the incident, she only got an account of the event from her MIL. While it may be true the UPS delivery person "had every right" to get back into his truck ... the simple fact remains that dog owners have every responsibility to properly contain their dogs so that such incidents do not happen in the first place. This is why it's an extremely bad idea for the OP to call UPS and complain about the driver's actions!!

Really, are you serious?!? Think about it: If she tries to make a "thing" out of this incident by complaining, it's likely to escalate and she as the dog owner will ultimately be blamed. Her responsibility to contain her dog WILL take precedence over the UPS driver's right to leave.

It does sound like an isolated incident. The dog didn't like that particular person or didn't care for him entering the property in a manner that the dog felt was threatening. Also true that the man didn't help the situation by waving the clip board in the dog's face. However, none of that removes responsibilty from the dog owner to contain her dog, THAT'S why it would be absolutely ridiculous to call UPS and complain!

The driver is not likely to get any kind of "warning" for his actions, the dog owner is more likely to end up with some kind of warning instead. If she complains, UPS is likely to consider her dog aggressive AND consider her either unconcerned or uncaring about it. UPS will then "flag" her address, causing her to have problems with getting any packages delivered in the future.

The OP's own idea of testing the dog with a few more strangers and then resolving to make sure he's contained afterward is a MUCH more sound and realistic approach than calling UPS with a complaint.

Then deterant sprays must be by the area. My brother works for UPS and when he was a driver, they gave the drivers the spray. But they do have a protocal on how to handle the situation. He had every right to just leave the house at the first bark of a loose dog. In calling HR under health and safety, their position is the same. He should have left without baiting the dog. Luckily he was not hurt, but he migh not be so lucky the next time with a different dog.

And it's not like complaining to UPS about anything does any good. They're worse than the USPS about deliveries anymore.

As usual you know everything without knowing ANYTHING.

This information was provided to the poster second hand. The MIL did not witness what happened in the beginning fo this incident.

How do you know he was baiting the dog?

Would you rather your dog be sprayed with a "deterrent spray" rather than being held off by the delivery person by placing an object between them?

What exactly does this mean?
If I were lucky enough to get by without charges being filed against me for having an unsecured dog who threatened a delivery person, I doubt I would be calling them up to file a complaint.

It is impossible to say what happened in this situation because no one commenting here witnessed it.

HAD the dog been properly fenced this discussion would not be happening. If I were MDawn I would be thankful my dog was not sprayed and that the delivery person was not injured. If I were in her position, I would see to it my dog had no other opportunity to threaten a delivery person, and count my blessings that no one was injured including my dog.

"Having every right" to walk back to his vehicle doesn't mean he had the chance to do so. Once a dog is engaging you, you can't just say "Ooops, my bad, didn't see you there."

And once again, do we know if the dog was sitting smack dab in the middle of the yard with a red ring around him and a sign that says "DOG HERE". ????

The dog may not have been seen when the UPS driver got out of his vehicle. He may have came running from another part of the yard and the UPS driver didn't have the time nor the chance to retreat to his vehicle.

But yeah, spraying pepper spray in his eyes would have been MUCH better than trying to distract the dog with the clipboard. (not)

I'm SOOOO glad no one got hurt, in this incident, and Eddie wasn't reported for being loose and menacing. D=

Having a dog who IS protective of the home (Gonzy), my advice is:

1) Get padlocks on your gates, secure your fences, and don't leave your dogs out unsupervised - ever.

2) Socialize/condition/train. Teach Eddie that YOU are in charge, and that when you give him the "ok", he needs to back off of new people... regardless of what they're waving in his face. Since it sounds like he already associates most new people with good things, I think what is more important is getting a very solid recall and waiting at the door, instead of taking it upon himself to investigate strangers at the door.

3) Ask your Mom not to leave the dogs in the yard alone. (especially if it isn't fenced... I missed that part?)

since this guy was obviously not dog savy (which alot of us forget that most of the public ISN'T) he probably wouldn't have been smart enough to back into his truck and not run/walk away with his back exposed.

Don't most people get bitten in a retreat when their back is turned?


I heart my fence.

I completely agree with this. The UPS guy was just a non-dog-savvy person trying to do his job. The fact that he isn't dog-savvy and was waving the clipboard doesn't make it acceptable for any dog to bite him while he tries to deliver packages.

Also, I would not put too much faith in "Dogs just KNOW, so there must have been something WRONG with that man!" It's true that many dogs react aggressively to people with bad intentions. But there are also dogs who react violently to people with mental or physical handicaps who walk, move, or act "abnormally" (not acting dangerous, but merely not the way the dog is used to.)

Dogs aren't all-knowing angels, they're dogs.

Sorry I didn't reply to this sooner...I wasn't feeling well yesterday and just went to bed straight from coming home from work.

Just to clear up somethings. No, my yard isn't fenced. I do not live in town but in a very rural area, a fair distance from the road. My property is surrounded by woods. Some of our property is fenced off for cattle but that is it. Normally, my dogs are allowed to run off leash on my property. However, when they are outside for that length of time someone is with them. One reason is that my Mastiff tends to wander and another...what is the fun of dogs if we aren't outside running and playing with them? I like that they have the freedom to run and not physically confined in a limited area in order to do it in. However, they are not allowed to just roam free whenever they please. That is asking for my dogs to get shot if they would wander on someones property. My neighbors have livestock, like chickens and such that they could perceive my dogs would kill. They are not allowed to run outside without supervision and both have good recall. We have in the past thought about fencing in part of our yard, right off of the side entrance for the dogs to lay outside and sun themselves in or whatever without having direct supervision. However, we have just talked about it, now it is something that we are seriously talking about.

I have no intention of complaining to UPS about the delivery guy. I don't think that he did the right thing in waving the clipboard in front of Eddie's face...but he may not have recognized that it was making the situation worse. He may have been someone that didn't know a lot about dogs, or even someone that is afraid of dogs. I have no proof that he did something to hurt Eddie (not even sure if I really think the person did do something) so I have nothing to really complain about.

Also, Eddie was loose...he wasn't tied. My dogs are never tied up unless they are getting baths outside in the summer. However, Eddie is now tied when he goes outside to potty as a temporary solution. Both of my dogs are inside dogs.

To me, this is an issue that my dog acted in an aggressive manner when he never has before. Neither of my dogs are aggressive with people. They have been protective, yes, but outright aggressive...no. As with Eddie being outside alone...Eddie has an injured leg. He wasn't supposed to outside without a leash at that time to keep him from running on it. My instruction in that was ignored...but that is a separate issue. However, normally when he isn't injured, he could have been outside to use the bathroom off leash, unsupervised for that short amount of time and then called back inside after a few minutes. Eddie has a good recall and I don't have any trouble with him not coming when he's called or with him wandering off. He always goes to the bathroom in the hay field and then comes back without issue. He doesn't really have any interest in playing outside unless he has someone to play with or unless Uallis is out as well to play with. His behavior that was described to me is something I've never, in the 2 years I've had him, witnessed from him. I have never once seen him bare his teeth or act in a threatening manner toward anyone...ever. Several years ago, I had a very aggressive Cocker, that I found as a stray. He would try to attack anyone that came to our house and he had to be crated whenever anyone besides us were around. He was a very nice dog otherwise and I loved him but it is NOT something that I want to deal with again. That is not behavior that I want or need from my dogs. What troubles me is that my dog was suddenly aggressive and I don't know why. I don't know if this is how he's going to be in the future or because he felt vulnerable because of his injured leg or because he just didn't like the guy. What scares me is that my dog could have bitten someone and to me that means it could happen again. I will take whatever measures I need in order to protect my dogs because if this would happen again and Eddie did bite...think about what could realistically happen: I would get a big fat lawsuit and my dog could be put down as a result. To me, it is a very serious issue.

I am taking Eddie to the vet to see if there is a medical reason for this...it is sudden aggression that isn't characteristic of him. He does have an injured leg that while it is better, could still be hurting him. Also, if and when a medical reason is ruled out then I want to invite some strangers (to him) over to "test" him I suppose and go from there. For now, he has lost the privilege of going outside to potty without supervision and is tied out until we can decide about a fence. That may not happen until Spring at any rate. I honestly don't know what else to do in the meantime.

:hail:

I agree with that 100%. Dogs aren't all-knowing judges of human character.

I think the "Oh, there must be something wrong with that person," reasoning is thrown out there far too often for my comfort. That's probably because it's much more reassuring to us as dog owners to think that someone must be "bad" than to admit that our beloved angel-dogs were reacting inappropriately.

But heck, it happens. If a dog is caught off-guard by a person, the way they move, the way the look, etc., they're going to react. Perfectly understandable. It doesn't make your dog a monster. It means that your dog is a dog. You probably need to pay attention to the situation or person, try to identify the trigger(s) that set your dog off, and then try to socialize for it. Just because your dog growls doesn't automatically mean the person is "bad".

An interesting side note in relation to how my dogs react to people move in a way they are not used to...at least in one circumstance...

A few months ago, I heard a car pull in my driveway. It was about 10p.m. I was getting ready for bed. I went outside to see who it was and brought Eddie and Uallis with me. Long story short, the people were drunk, they had the wrong address. When they went to leave, they tried to turn around in my yard and of course got stuck. Everyone in the car got out and were so drunk they were falling down and stumbling. They asked me from a distance if they could use my phone to call for someone to pull them out. The dogs and I went inside and got the phone and together we went out again. The people were moving strangely than what they are used to...with the falling down, they were slurring their words,etc...Eddie stood in front of me, when the driver came toward me so I could hand him the phone...Eddie jumped on him and pushed him back. He never growled at him, didn't bare his teeth or snap...just jumped and pushed him back. Uallis stood beside me the whole time, attached to my hip... The guy said something about putting my dogs away in the house because "they scared" him. I refused. He tried to take another step toward me and again Eddie jumped and pushed him back. Eddie is a big dog...over 100lbs...so it made the guy stumble. I had to walk toward the guy myself and hand him the phone. Eddie would not let him approach the house. This, I attributed to they way they acted...they were falling down all over the yard, they slurred everything they said and I was, personally, tense...and apprehensive because I was alone with a bunch of drunk strangers at night in a rural area with no close neighbors to hear anything if I needed help. In this circumstance, the dogs weren't exactly friendly but still acted in a way that I considered acceptable.

My MIL never said anything about how the guy moved...like if he walked with a limp or whatever and I never thought to ask. In the previous insistence, I was with them and saw how they acted...I don't know if they would have acted differently or in an aggressive manner if they would have been alone with them without me there...but it is interesting.

Also, worth mentioning is that Uallis, my Mastiff, has came to work with me before. I work at a school for children with developmental disabilities...so he been around people that act out of the norm so to speak. He's been around people in wheelchairs, that talk differently or make erratic motions. Eddie, however, has not came with me because he is exuberant and I've been afraid that he'd inadvertently hurt a medically fragile person with how hyper he is...he isn't a very calm dog...so I've never brought him, so he doesn't have that experience that Uallis does.

But this has given me an idea of what to add when we have some people come over to test him. I'll ask them to stumble around, walk with a limp, etc...to see if that could be a possible trigger for him. Again, with the drunk people, he didn't act in a way that I considered unacceptable as he didn't growl, bark aggressively, bare teeth or snap...I thought it was protective action and recognized it as that. Maybe also add that they walk toward him fast..slow...with different gaits, etc...just to experiment. It would be good solicitation for both dogs at any rate with how to deal with strangers who act differently on their "territory".

Exactly. Dogs react the way they do depending on their socialization history. Some breeds are harder to socialize than others. Guard type dogs need a ton of socializing in order to not over react. But this is not as prevelent in Labs or wasn't in the past. It appears that your dog may not have had ample socialization. And it is hard when you're out in the country. I know. I had to go way out of my way to socialize my dogs. They need to learn that the UPS driver brings Xmas packages, sometimes something from Hickory Farms and all other sorts of good things like doggie treats.

When Lyric, my Dobe was young and forever more, everytime a delivery person or any person who had business in my yard came, he was fed treats and had a little friendly socializing. He could be left in the yard with me inside and I didn't worry about him flying off the handle. He'd watch, but that's it. If the UPS guy came up my long driveway, I'd walk outside and he and the other dogs would go up the first steps into the truck and the guy gave them treats as they wagged their tails.

I don't care about this hype about dogs doing their "jobs." It is not a job to bite anyone unless they're breaking into your house or attacking you. Well socialized dogs learn what is normal and acceptable and what happens in the regular course of things. And the things they are not socialized to are foreign and usually scary to them and that's why they act "aggressive"...usually out of fear, with some on the offensive.

When someone tried to enter my house however, (when Lyric and the other dog were outside playing,) when I wasn't there to invite the person in, Lyric did growl at him...not a lot of drama, just a low, throaty growl with one tooth showing until they backed up onto the pathway. Then Lyric said, "Fine....you're okay there. Just don't come inside." I heard all about it later. Long story...But someone coming into the house without me opening the door and inviting them in was foriegn to Lyric. He hadn't been socialized to that sort of thing. That is why he didn't like it that the guy was starting to open the door like he was coming in.

So, it sounds like this driver was not purposely antagonizing your dog, but trying to ward off an attack. (Your dog never acted this way because he was a juvenile. Now he has reached maturity or nearly so) That changes things completely.

No one should be threatened by a dog for coming into the yard IMO or at least in most cases. So, I would make sure in the future to socialize this dog more to inoccuous people coming over. (although it's difficult once they're past their early puppy stage) Associate friendly strangers with high value treats and praise. And perhaps when you're expecting a delivery, you might find out what time they're expected to come and have the dog in.

It sounds like your MIL handled the situation calmly and well. That guy was a dummy how to act around dogs but not everyone can be expected to act correctly. That's why copious amounts of socialization are imperative and/or managing the dog so he can't get at anyone. Glad he didn't end up biting that guy. Whew!

I admit I have not read the whole thread yet so if someone has said this I apologize..... but I have to say, If I was in a situation where I felt threatened I may wave whatever I had that I thought would keep the dog back.... You don't know if this guy had been bit before and the dog was reading or reacting to his fear....

I agree with RR, drivers should not have to deal with it... and honestly, I would feel inclined to apologize to the driver not confront UPS... and use it as a lesson learned to be very careful, and fence the area if at all possible.

It sounds to me, and there are lots on here much smarter than me However I think he is just protecting you, and that may have been all that happened with the UPS guy as well, you just may have to be careful that he never interprets a "safe" person incorrectly, maybe train him a solid instant "it's ok... " ? I have no clue if this is the correct advice.. LOL just what I'd consider in that situation!

personally, I train a "its Ok" and then i walk up to the person, or place myself between the dog and the person and praise the dog for being friendly.


Eventually you just have to yell "its ok" and the dog stops being "aggressive" which is actually just fear in my cases.


I had forgotten how big Eddie is. :yikes:

Doberluv--you make an interesting point about Eddie not reacting this way previously because he was a juvenile...that is something that I didn't think about.

As for the delivery thing...that is solely on me and a mistake that I made. When I ordered the object, I thought that delivery was going to be by USPS not UPS...so that is why I didn't mention the package being delivered. Normally, I know the day that a package is supposed to come, either by UPS or FedEx, and notify my MIL or who ever it is that comes over to let my dogs out to expect it or look for it sitting by the door.

Look, I don't expect that any delivery person should have to deal with an aggressive animal when they are just doing their job. I don't care how they act, walk, look, etc...it is NOT acceptable to me that my dog act in an aggressive manner unless they are being physically harmed or I am being physically harmed. That is the entire reason why I have concern...because I don't want that behavior from my dog just because someone was trying to deliver a package to my house. It's a hazard to the person delivering (obviously) but also to my dog who will pay the price for biting someone. To me, it isn't an issue of whether it was justified because he was waving that clipboard in Eddie's face or not, whether that is the right thing for someone to do or not...that is STILL not reason for my dog to bare his teeth and almost bite someone. Unless that guy kicked him, hit him, punched him...my dog had no reason to react that way...none. I'm not making any sort of excuses. However, the simple fact of the matter is that he did act that way and it isn't his fault...he's a dog. The blame in this rests solely on my shoulders as his owner. I understand that and accept it and I want to remedy it. I dropped the ball somewhere in his training, socialization...somewhere...but what needs to be done now is making sure it doesn't happen again and trying to correct the problem. I think that Eddie is a great dog...if he was being aggravated by that man, even with the man not meaning to...to me...Eddie still did good because he was easily called off and retreated with a command. To me, that shows that the entire situation isn't hopeless and that I can fix this.

Criosphynx- yeah, Eddie is an oversized Lab...he's a big boy. 110lbs at last weigh in.

I think you have a really good attitude and I'm sure with being so conscienteous, that something like that will be prevented in the future. In addition, you might try conditioning him more to friendly strangers by associating them with tasty treats and friendly visiting. Of course, you'll have to watch him but trying to give him a favorable outlook on people coming over, people you meet out on walks, different places, different people might help the odds too. Once he has loads of experiences meeting new people, you might have a few friends or your family who he knows well do some unusual things like wave a clipboard around, (lol) wear weird clothes; snow suits, capes, big hats. Carry some large package or garbage bag...something that changes the profile of the person and again, associate with good things. All this type of stuff should happen when a puppy is very young to help him learn that all kinds of people and objects aren't scary, but good things to have around. It' hard with an older dog once they pass the critical period but some of that might help to raise the odds a little that he'll be less reactive when something weird comes up. Best of luck.

Mdawn- can you put up a driveway detector? That would beep if someone entered the driveway?

Great idea Borzoimom! Go to Spyville.com. All it takes is some moolah! LOL. But it would be cheaper than a law suit.

That is actually a really good idea Borzoimom! :hail:

Since reading your suggestion, I looked and they aren't as expensive as I thought that they would be. I don't need anything extravagant, just something to turn on when the dogs are out to the potty. A lot of times we don't hear people coming up the driveway because some people park at the bottom and walk up. With big vehicles, like delivery trucks, it can be tricky for them to turn around so something like this could help with someone taking my dogs by "surprise"...I suppose, as I could remove them from the yard before the person actually gets to the house.

Very good idea and one that I'm going to mention to my boyfriend as soon as he gets home!