Please help me help my dog listen
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My chihuahua, Luna, was very dog reactive when I got her at a year old, but she was good in training class and I was still able to use her as a demo dog in the training classes I taught. I think part of it was what Dober said, she was in "work" mode. It could also be that in class we had a very strict "6 Foot Rule," where dogs had to stay 6' apart while in the training area. Since no dogs ever got closer than 6' to her, Luna might have been particularly comfortable there. It might also have been that in class she was usually facing me, where out on our walks she was facing the other dogs.
BTW, I also used clicker training and the methods described in Click to Calm to "fix" her reactivity. It took her about 6 months of nearly daily training before she would calmly tolerate other dogs, and about another 2 years before she started enjoying being around other dogs.
If a dog is afraid/defensive at training, IMO, the dog shouldn't be subjected to going to training.
BTW, I also used clicker training and the methods described in Click to Calm to "fix" her reactivity. It took her about 6 months of nearly daily training before she would calmly tolerate other dogs, and about another 2 years before she started enjoying being around other dogs.
If a dog is afraid/defensive at training, IMO, the dog shouldn't be subjected to going to training.
Okay, so I'm re reading this thread, and I'm a little confused.
You've been training the dog for 3 months, but you've had him 7 years.
In those previous 7 years, the dog never left the yard, but now that you have moved there is a need to walk him.
For a month of those three months you've been doing what you were told by the trainer from the site you posted.
You've attended two classes at the trainer's location.
Your dog behaves better at the trainer's location than out on a casual walk and you would like to know why.
Please correct me if I'm understanding wrong above.
There are several factors at play here.
The biggest factor is a dog who has lived with you for 7 years under certain rules and expectations, and now you are changing the rules. All dogs have a history with their owners and expectations of behavior whether we consciously teach them any or not.
He has spent his entire life in one yard, and now he has to navigate a walk in the city, which I imagine is overwhelming enough. But add to that that he has no training and doesn't know he can trust you or how to defer to you for guidance. Its like you've thrown him in to the deep end of the swimming pool without teaching him any basic water skills.
Following the water analogy, I'd be really interested to know how he acts (other than compliant) when at the trainer's place. You say he shakes and tucks his tail, does he also drool a lot? Shed a lot? Sniff the ground or hold his head low? Look away from you or the other dogs?
My guess is that with such close proximity of so many dogs, he is actually flooded, he is getting so much stimulus that he basically shuts down and goes in to a sort of mobile catatonic state. So while he's not exhibiting any "problem" behaviors, he's also not learning any coping skills either - as you have experienced as soon as he sees another dog outside of the environment of the training field.
The biggest thing this guy needs to know is that he can trust you. That he can trust you not to put him in a situation he's not ready for, trust you to give him clear directions, and trust you to handle things so that he doesn't have to.
However you decide to teach him commands, it has to be in a way that is clear to him, that allows him to think for himself, and that builds his trust in you.
If you were pinged with a rubber band every time you gave the teacher the wrong answer, while its not really that painful, after enough repetitions, you're going to stop trying to answer and you're not going to trust the teacher very much either are you? (Or if you're of a particular temperament you might be tempted to grab that teacher's $%#&*$% rubber band and do some "pinging" of your own. *whistles*)
But if you got a smile and m&m's every time you got the answer right, you're probably going to keep trying even when the problems get more complex and difficult.
I find this statement on the website you posted very telling:
There is so much wrong here I don't even know where to begin.
a) ALL training that's worth anything goes beyond "sit and stay". ALL training that's worth anything creates a dog/handler bond.
b) the bolded part is total baloney and betrays a lack of knowledge of motivation in dogs (or people for that matter). Jean Donaldson explains it best in "The Culture Clash". That basically dogs work for two reasons, to gain something good or avoid something bad.
I don't understand how someone can train a dog with leash corrections and then say the dog is motivated to please you without also acknowledging that the dog is motivated to AVOID the leash correction. Dogs are no dummies and quickly learn that happy face on owner = no corrections.
Seeing as dog training is so dependent on understanding what motivates each individual dog, I'd be very leery of any trainer that had such a poor concept of motivation.
You've been training the dog for 3 months, but you've had him 7 years.
In those previous 7 years, the dog never left the yard, but now that you have moved there is a need to walk him.
For a month of those three months you've been doing what you were told by the trainer from the site you posted.
You've attended two classes at the trainer's location.
Your dog behaves better at the trainer's location than out on a casual walk and you would like to know why.
Please correct me if I'm understanding wrong above.
There are several factors at play here.
The biggest factor is a dog who has lived with you for 7 years under certain rules and expectations, and now you are changing the rules. All dogs have a history with their owners and expectations of behavior whether we consciously teach them any or not.
He has spent his entire life in one yard, and now he has to navigate a walk in the city, which I imagine is overwhelming enough. But add to that that he has no training and doesn't know he can trust you or how to defer to you for guidance. Its like you've thrown him in to the deep end of the swimming pool without teaching him any basic water skills.
Following the water analogy, I'd be really interested to know how he acts (other than compliant) when at the trainer's place. You say he shakes and tucks his tail, does he also drool a lot? Shed a lot? Sniff the ground or hold his head low? Look away from you or the other dogs?
My guess is that with such close proximity of so many dogs, he is actually flooded, he is getting so much stimulus that he basically shuts down and goes in to a sort of mobile catatonic state. So while he's not exhibiting any "problem" behaviors, he's also not learning any coping skills either - as you have experienced as soon as he sees another dog outside of the environment of the training field.
The biggest thing this guy needs to know is that he can trust you. That he can trust you not to put him in a situation he's not ready for, trust you to give him clear directions, and trust you to handle things so that he doesn't have to.
However you decide to teach him commands, it has to be in a way that is clear to him, that allows him to think for himself, and that builds his trust in you.
If you were pinged with a rubber band every time you gave the teacher the wrong answer, while its not really that painful, after enough repetitions, you're going to stop trying to answer and you're not going to trust the teacher very much either are you? (Or if you're of a particular temperament you might be tempted to grab that teacher's $%#&*$% rubber band and do some "pinging" of your own. *whistles*)
But if you got a smile and m&m's every time you got the answer right, you're probably going to keep trying even when the problems get more complex and difficult.
I find this statement on the website you posted very telling:
There is so much wrong here I don't even know where to begin.
a) ALL training that's worth anything goes beyond "sit and stay". ALL training that's worth anything creates a dog/handler bond.
b) the bolded part is total baloney and betrays a lack of knowledge of motivation in dogs (or people for that matter). Jean Donaldson explains it best in "The Culture Clash". That basically dogs work for two reasons, to gain something good or avoid something bad.
I don't understand how someone can train a dog with leash corrections and then say the dog is motivated to please you without also acknowledging that the dog is motivated to AVOID the leash correction. Dogs are no dummies and quickly learn that happy face on owner = no corrections.
Seeing as dog training is so dependent on understanding what motivates each individual dog, I'd be very leery of any trainer that had such a poor concept of motivation.
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Wanted to chime in that the methods used to train k9 police dogs really don't carry over very well into real-life situations....that's why police dogs are ALWAYS on leash and most are not allowed to interact with the general public. They are trained using very specific methods, situations, etc. and are generally not very well behaved around other people/dogs/situations.
I would look for a trainer who uses positive reinforcement methods. What you're describing about having the dog walk through other dogs on boxes sounds like it's so over-stimulating they're just looking to get the dog to "shut down" and stop reacting, which will work in that specific instance, but not for day-to-day life.
I would look for a trainer who uses positive reinforcement methods. What you're describing about having the dog walk through other dogs on boxes sounds like it's so over-stimulating they're just looking to get the dog to "shut down" and stop reacting, which will work in that specific instance, but not for day-to-day life.
Yes, exactly. I refered to the book, Click To Calm, by Emma Parsons to make sure I wasn't missing any important tips. I used many of her ideas. My dog didn't completely stop being reactive. He improved and settled down some. He wasn't cowering around other dogs. On the contrary, he was lunging at the end of the leash, snarling and embarrassing the heck out of me. LOL.
I agree with Lizzybeth that if your dog is highly stressed and fearful in training class, I'd put that off. You'd do better to work out the training on your own, with some training tips etc. There's no learning if your dog is highly anxious and stressed and it's not even physically good for a dog to be in that state chronically.
I agree with Lizzybeth that if your dog is highly stressed and fearful in training class, I'd put that off. You'd do better to work out the training on your own, with some training tips etc. There's no learning if your dog is highly anxious and stressed and it's not even physically good for a dog to be in that state chronically.
You are correct about everything on his background. He only got the shakes one time at the trainer's, and stuck to my leg. The last time we went, he didnt get the shakes at all, he doesn't drool at all either..or shed. His tail is not always tucked either, sometimes its wagging slowly while there. Sometimes its just stiff. And his head is not down much, for the most part he just has wandering eyes. In the beginning, he pulls towards the door a lot to leave. He did get too focused on other dogs near him a few times, got engaged in a couple staring contests and I had to snap him out of it. The first class the trainer just talked for 75% of the time telling us procedures and what we will be doing. During that time, all the dogs/owners were lined up against a wall next to each other (about 5 ft away). But what we found funny during this time was that he wanted to lay down. He didnt want to sit. While he was laying down he was very calm..even when directly looking at the dog next to him. A few times the germ.shep. pup to the other side of us got to close and my dog tried snapping at him.(because the other owner didnt keep his dog close enough to him). He doesnt look away from us, if we say his name, he will look directly at us while there. Otherwise he;s just looking around..or at the door. I dont think its a matter of how many dogs are in the room, b/c one time we went there was only one other dog there at first and he was exactly the same as when the room has 10 dogs. And the first lesson he had, they brought 1 dog out, one at a time and he wasnt aggresive at all. The first class he did they taught us some basic commands then he brought out his rottweiler who is very nice and trained well, and my dog did not bark once or anything. He made them pass by eachother a few times on leash walking and then had them sit next to each other, my dog turned his back..and the trainer said that was good b/c dogs either fight or flight and that means he is not really an aggresive dog. Then he had the rotti lay down on top of a big long table and had my dog walk over the top of her, there was a little suttle growling by my dog but I think he did it. Then they brought out a big german shep. very nice and trained and he did well with walking by it and not doing anything. But then he brought out a dog and he said she is still a work in progress and she used to be aggresive. Well this little germ.shep. caused a riot. Was ok at first, but then while walking her, the big nice shepherd, and my dog all like in a circle, the little one started going nuts and then caused the other 2 to go nuts as well. We just walked our dog away from it. He said he wanted to see what we would do, and he said we did the right thing. I thought that was really not neccesary. I agree with you, I dont think he trains the best way. Will it work? I really dont know. It makes more sense to me that a dog would respond a lot better to motivating them with positive reinforcement. I have a question for you, what if my dog does get engaged in barking at another dog while at the park..what do I do? Im going to try and prevent it from happening while still working with him but some dogs are off leash and get too close for him.
Just to give you a different perspective, this is what a reactive dog class can look like. The dogs outside the fence are learning to relax around another dog who is being active (running, playing, bouncing), and the black dog is learning to focus on me even though there are other dogs around and even when I stop doing anything interesting. Its a default "what's next mom?" type attitude, and its not that hard to build.
YouTube - Focus and control class
YouTube - Focus and control class
I wasnt planning on taking him out of the class but now Im afraid it might be detrimental to his learning. I dont think he is overly stressed out there, no panting or toungue hanging out (yet). So im not sure if its ok to keep him there or not. See we tried the intermediate class but he was too stressed out by what they wanted from him in that class, so they put us in the beginners and he seems to not be stressed out/overwhelmed yet. do you guys think if I do the positive reinforcement and clicker training at home and keep him in the beginner class it will be bad for him?
Most of the point of training (for me anyhow) is to have fun, my dog and me. If it's stressful at all, there's no point. Compulsive, forceful, punishing type training is NOT fun for a dog and most certainly shouldn't be for humans. But a lot of people have bought into the dominance panacea b.s. and think there isn't any other way. Positive reinforcement type training, when done correctly should not create stress in the dog and should in fact, be like a game. IMO dogs learn better when they're thoroughly enjoying themselves and it creates a much better bond between owner and dog. If the other dogs are stressing him out at all, I'd keep him away from them except for a desensatizing program that you can learn about in the books mentioned. Or, if you have any friends with a couple dogs that he seems to like to play with, that would be great. Otherwise, a bunch of unknown dogs (to him) aren't necessary until he gets so he is comfortable. You can teach him his basic obedience without a class...you can get tips here or get a good book that we can recommend or some websites. You can Google Clicker Solutions for some good tips. The main point of obedience classes for me is the socialization aspect and for the dog to learn how to do things around other dogs/distractions. But you can add those things in later....gradually, so there's little stress on you both. Or not. if he's always been in his own yard and it's too difficult to get him okay with too many dogs, let him live his life without all that. There's not a big need for him to hang out with tons of dogs is there?
^^^^THIS.
I think of it this way.... Dogs only have so many years here on earth. Your dog, being middle-aged, only has a few good years left. Why should you make him do something that makes him so miserable? I'm not saying you should spoil your dog or give him everything he ever asks for.... But why put him in this situation if you don't really need to?
I think of it this way.... Dogs only have so many years here on earth. Your dog, being middle-aged, only has a few good years left. Why should you make him do something that makes him so miserable? I'm not saying you should spoil your dog or give him everything he ever asks for.... But why put him in this situation if you don't really need to?
This whole thing tells me your dog sounds pretty miserable at that class. His tail is wagging slowly often is an appeasment gesture, a nervousness, not a happy full body wag. He's looking at and pulling toward the door. "Mom! help! Get me the hell outta here!"
If your dog barks at another dog while at the park, I wouldn't do anything. Just keep relaxed and keep on walking. Do try and keep him at a sufficient distance from other dogs if you must walk where dogs are. When you read the book (s) or whatever, you can try those methods. If other dogs are off leash and run up to him, freaking him out, stay away from that park. Is there someplace you can walk where that won't happen?
He got these dogs all close together in a circle....wanted to see what would happen??? Your dog should not be used as a Guinea pig in an experiment to see what you would do. These kinds of experiences will escalate your dogs problems many times over. I'm sorry, but I'll say it again. That trainer sounds inexperienced. I hope you dump that class and start working with your dog on your own for now, doing things for fun to exercise his mind and body. We can help give you ideas. And see if his walks can be done in a place where there's little stress of other dogs around. That's what I would do with an older dog who doesn't have that many years left...make his life happy, fun, non-stressful and not take things too seriously. Just have fun.
If your dog barks at another dog while at the park, I wouldn't do anything. Just keep relaxed and keep on walking. Do try and keep him at a sufficient distance from other dogs if you must walk where dogs are. When you read the book (s) or whatever, you can try those methods. If other dogs are off leash and run up to him, freaking him out, stay away from that park. Is there someplace you can walk where that won't happen?
He got these dogs all close together in a circle....wanted to see what would happen??? Your dog should not be used as a Guinea pig in an experiment to see what you would do. These kinds of experiences will escalate your dogs problems many times over. I'm sorry, but I'll say it again. That trainer sounds inexperienced. I hope you dump that class and start working with your dog on your own for now, doing things for fun to exercise his mind and body. We can help give you ideas. And see if his walks can be done in a place where there's little stress of other dogs around. That's what I would do with an older dog who doesn't have that many years left...make his life happy, fun, non-stressful and not take things too seriously. Just have fun.
Thank you all for such informative answers, its really helpful. I just bought a clicker. Just a couple questions, when using the clicker, I can only teach him one thing with it right? I dont want to confuse him with various types of commads with the clicker. Sorry if im missing something, im still learning all of this. But I think Im going to use it to get him to look at me or watch me. Then gradually increase distractions. But my other problem that I didnt mention, is that he pulls on the leash when we walk. Its not terrible, but the bad trainers Im going to now say he should be able to walk on the leash with me holding it on two fingers gently. The leash is always very tight when we walk and he pulls ahead, not enough to make me walk any faster or budge me though. I saw the youtube link on here someone posted about using the clicker and positive reward when the dog looks at her face, then she slowly introduces walking backwards while doing it, then sideways, then walking normal while doing that. The only thing with that is, wouldn't I constantly have to give him treats, on every walk? That would be a lot of treats for every few steps. Im just trying to outline exactly what our method of training is going to be. Thanks all, I appreciate it a lot.
No, you can teach more than one behavior at a time. Click to Calm discusses in detail how to use the clicker and what behaviors you can use it for, I hope you will read it.
That's right. The leash should not be a steering or breaking device; it's ONLY a safety device, for in case your dog dashes toward something dangerous. The idea of loose leash walking is that your dog walks at your side and matches your pace, and that he uses his brain to keep pace with you instead of any training equipment.
There are many threads on this forum about how to teach a dog to walk nicely on a leash. I'm pretty sure it's also in Click to Calm.
That's right. The leash should not be a steering or breaking device; it's ONLY a safety device, for in case your dog dashes toward something dangerous. The idea of loose leash walking is that your dog walks at your side and matches your pace, and that he uses his brain to keep pace with you instead of any training equipment.
There are many threads on this forum about how to teach a dog to walk nicely on a leash. I'm pretty sure it's also in Click to Calm.
Well, that's the thing. I live in north Idaho in an extremely low-populated, wilderness area. There weren't too many dogs around to practice with. We'd mostly do off leash hikes in the mountain forest trails where no one was but the bears and moose. lol. I do visit Seattle quite frequently, like about 4 or more times a year for a few weeks. That's when I had the chance to work him. My daughter lives almost on the water where there's a walking path where lots of people walk their dogs. This was basically the only chance I had to work with him a little. So, it wasn't really very much or very consistent. But he did get better. He really wasn't aggressive because even at home, if a dog came into our pasture, he'd run down there to see, but never attacked any dog. He was fine in classes. It was something about that leash and something about not being in "working mode" that seemed to get him riled up. I used the techniques like in the book, Click to Calm and he got much better, but never completely reliable that way.