Aggression

It's so true. It's next to impossible to know without lots of information, even in the best of times (as in....not on the Internet) So, here, as Sam says, there isn't even enough information, but even if there were, I doubt we could say. So, just to humor you (you little sneak) I'll take a stab at this guessing game.

The only kind of aggression I can even have a hope to tackle over the Internet is food or toy guarding. And even then, it is not a true "experiement" or conclusion because there still could be other factors which coincidentally are occuring at the same time. It could look like one thing, but something else is actually driving the aggression or may be driving it in addition to the handler error.

But these examples are IMO impossible to be accurate about. I guessed but can see very well how I could easily be wrong. What looks like one thing can be something else. And that's why I particularily HATE this jumping to conclusions about things like "dominance." There can be most definitely medical reasons, genetic or the regulator gene of seretonin which prediposes aggression etc which can be defective. A lot of aggression, I've certainly read is caused by physiological causes and owner handling of course too.

So I'll guess and I'll even put in my reasoning behind my guesses. Now, if THAT isn't being brave. Get ready...opcorn:


I'm itchin' to say chemical imbalance on this one too, but I've already used that one up on a following guess so I'll have to say owner handling error. lol.


Too many conscious things going on to be in a seizure such as eating a hole thru the bottom of the door, pulling up carpet, frantic, bit tongue. An accute occurance. The levels of some hormone must have reached a tipping point and he went berserk.

severe chemical imbalance

My reasoning, as faulty as it probably is:
(long term and gradual brain damage caused by repeated seizures. Can't focus, is aimless.)

seizures

This one could definitely resemble owner handling error. But since you asked us to guess, I figured that it couldn't be so obvious. So, if you used reverse psychology on us, I'm gonna have to getcha back!

Doberluv,

You are brave! I wouldn't even venture a guess without more information. Curious to hear what Otch1 has to say about the case histories of these dogs.

Otch1,

You are right in saying that people should be careful about "self-taught" trainers, but it really depends on the person, their depth of research and personal experience, and knowing when a dog is beyond their particular skill level. Some solutions are quite simple, and some are not.

A Petsmart trainer with a piece of paper certifying them with that particular course is not self-taught.

Well, that's just it! It's a guess. I wouldn't venture a guess either, but she's making us! LOL. It's the same way I play Trivial Pursuit.

O.k.... here goes. The first, "handler error". The dog in question, a female Malinois, being aggressively mounted by the younger GSD, after finding suspicious bruising in groin and inner thigh, swollen area around vulva, claw marks on her that went undetected under very dense coat. The younger GSD, unaltered yet. Owner had dismissed a growl as he loaded them into the back of an enclosed truck bed, GSD in first, her trying to exit once loaded, as he pushed her back to close her in with him. A younger family member admitted seeing the GSD doing this to her that week, while out in the yard, but thought it was play. Dad at work, had not seen this yet, as the dogs seemed to get along beautifully and were on their best behavior while in the house. The second dog, a Rhidgeback, a severe imbalance, he is now on two medications including Clomipramine. The Sheltie pup... seizures! What previous owners had thought was an unruly dog unwilling to bond with them, was actually having small seizures. What looked like a gag reflex, unable to swallow for a second. Mistaken as hair balls because the pup was always licking itself. That being the actual seizure. A "glitch", so to speak. The circling, pacing, growling came before the seizures she knew were coming on. The non-responsive behavior, appearing to walk off and ignore owners was her recovery time after seizure. These were so subtle, that no one knew what they were looking at and didn't realize she was having them throut the day! Doberluv, for evaluating over the internet, you were correct. But I believe I've made my point to dog owners. You never know and it's dangerous to "guess", even when you're a pro, especially over the internet. Doberluv, the latte's on me when you make it to my neck of the woods!

Well, my Lab had seizures when she was very old, but there was no mistaking those ones. Yes, after she came out of them, she would go into what's called the postictal stage, quite like the Sheltie was described. Excessive, repeated seizures could make a dog's brain fried. Some....here and there, not a big deal. (Electrochemical discharges escaping out of holes or tears in the mylen covering around nerve pathways and into the brain...not able to follow the pathway from nerve cell to nerve cell which are not touching eachother)with most neurological type seizures. There are many causes and types.

I think part of my reasoning may come from my medical background (human). They say when you have an intuition (which is what my guesses basically were) that there really is something in your head, tucked away. And maybe I drew on that a little too.

But yes, it is a big mistake to jump to conclusions about why a dog is being aggressive....too many possibilities. Thanks for the interesting lesson.

Interesting! Seizures sure can prsent in interesting ways in dogs!
There's a sheltie I see at the park from time to time that chases shadows, runs off as if chasing something, barking and growling at NOTHING. It spins and claws the ground is seemigly oblivious to people and dogs around her. I wonder if she could be having seizures. The owner seems to be chalking it up to a weird sheltie neurotic quirk. It's a young dog too- I hope she takes it to the vet.
I didn't know you had a medical background Carrie. Do tell opcorn:

Sam,
Have you read THE DOG WHO LOVED TOO MUCH - By Dr. Nicholas Dodman?
It has a ton of these case studies, prescribed treatments (behavior mod/med..etc) and resulting outcomes. It has to be one of my favorite books. (although I did find that some treatments were a bit too medication quick/heavy...still a great read though)

No I haven't read that one. Sounds really interesting! You know you're a dog nerd when you go to aggression seminars, read books like that one knowing you'll never ever treats aggressive dogs- you just think it's interesting
Even though my dogs are from rescues I am sooo careful to pick dogs that get along well with all four legged and two legged creatures.

I can't wait to meet you in Calgary and pick your brain about your growlers class. Ya know I don't think there is anyone doing a growlers class in Edmonton . I'd love to come watch yours one day. Maybe if I'm in Calgary for something .....

Yes, there can be many, many types of seizures and causes for them; epilepsy, brain tumors, low blood sugar, hypothyroidism, head injuries, heart worm meds, other meds, vaccines and more. And they can vary in the signs, the way the subject acts. There can be different things going on in the head, as they can originate in different areas of the brain. So they're the same thing isn't happening in all kinds of seizures. That dog may have been having one, but what he was doing could also be OCD or nothing at all, but a bored dog. It's really hard to say.

About 20 some years ago, I was a physicians assistant, after schooling....anatomy and physiology, terminology, clinical stuff; patient care, lab; blood work etc, x-ray, asst. minor surgery, microscopy, bacteriology, stuff like that. I've been a pharmacy tech, but that too has been a few years. I'm long since un-certified. They have drugs and equipment that I never heard of when I was in it. I've forgotten a lot too, including some spelling, which I never thought I could after the heavy drilling. LOL.

Oops! You just added another book to my wish list. My goodness, I'm going to go broke. That looks like a fascinating book.

The thing about medications is, unless the dog is in a certain state, medically, hormonally, neurotransmitting stuff like seretonin, you can't always "reach" the dog to do any therapy. He can't hear you. So, it has it's place, definitely in certain situations.

That's a great book Dr2. Also, Dogs Behaving Badly by Dr. Dodman. Sam, tell us if she's (Dr2) a little scarey or if she's really as nice, and as much fun as she sounds like she'd be, to 'hang out' with. Lol! Hope you guys have a great time at seminar! Have a good day.

I am sooooo jealous! You two are so lucky to get to meet. I can't wait to hear how it all went. What fun!!!!!

Good job on your "guesstimation" Dober!

And, good luck in your training career. You've worked very hard on your studies and it is time to get out and get your feet wet with other people's dogs.

I know you will be honest and careful with your new clients, and you've made a lot of great contacts on the dog boards who will help you take the next step!

Kudos and good luck to you!

I have that one too otch1, I just haven't looked at it for a while - I'm going to put it by the bed so I can look at it again tonight.

Oh, and yes I'm very scarey. I'm about 6'4", 250 lbs. and have a hook instead of a left arm....Oh..and an eye patch over one eye...the one right in the centre of my forehead..:lol-sign: :lol-sign: ..and I spit when I talk, and not just when I'm mad either!!:yikes:

I wish you could come too!! It would be great to have a little Chaz get together of our own..otch1 and others on here too!!

I know what you mean. I'm also attending a Canine Reproduction Welping and Puppy Intensive Care seminar by Myra Savant in January. I'll never be a breeder but I just love learning everything DOG. I work with a few clients who are breeders doing Structure Testing and thought that this course would be a good addition to that.
One breeder of Cotons, the gal I'm going to the seminar with, has asked me if I would help her during whelping if she needs it.....I think that would be amazing.
Anyway, why don't you think you'll ever do aggression work?
I'd love for you to come to a GROWL series to see what they're all about.

I'm so dang excited for Emma's seminar. The last seminar that I went to was early summer...I'm itching to go.

Thank you Angelique. I don't know that it's going to be any big deal...maybe just helping out a few folks with easier stuff. I won't be dealing with severe aggression cases...just things like manners, obedience, some kinds of behavior problems, maybe show someone how to teach their dogs some tricks using a clicker, just things I'm capable of. It would be important to observe people with their dogs....what they may be doing to cause behavior problems, show them how to stop reinforcing lousy behavior, how to control the dog's resources etc... Down the road when I've had more agility experience, maybe that too. But not yet.

I'm excited for Emma Parsons too just nervous that my dogs won't behave in a strange place as bait / calm dogs as they do at home or in familiar settings.

I know I'll never work with aggressive dogs because I don't have the skill or patience for it. I want to see faster progress. When I read "bringing light to shadow" by Pam Dennison. My first thought was that she was a fool to take him and about half way through the book I was ready to give up on him. No matter how much I may read and understand about aggression, I think my tendency would be to be too pushy and not keep the dog under threshold or react in anger if I got bitten.
Back when I was a nurse in the ICU a crazed patient smacked me a good one and I instantly saw red. It was all I could do not to smack her back :yikes: It scared me. I knew in my mand that the woman was in reallly dire straights and didn't know what she was doing, but in that second- I wanted to hit back. It's hard for me not too look at aggression like a character flaw if that makes sense.
I also look at how hard it is to get owners in a basic manners class to do some practice on easy peasy basic stuff even a few mintues twice a day with their dogs or get them to stop repeating commands , stop yanking their dogs around etc. I don't imagine you get many clients willing to put in the time and effort and management an aggressive dog takes. So many people just don't get it.

Wow, you were a nurse? You must know more about seizures than I do. I know I had them when I had chicken pox when I was 4 yrs. old...high fever. My two kids had them when they were babies, febrile convulsions. My daughter had one which lasted about 15 minutes. It was scary. My Mom had them for a year when she was a child and then never again. (idiopathic) It must be hereditary sometimes. No one had epilepsy...it was like a low temperature tolerance. I am delerious if I have a 102 temp. Weird.

So, that woman smacked you. How freaky! I know it would take a lot to prevent our own natural tendency to fight back in certain situations. We have instincts too. It must take a lot of practice to counter act some of the defense reactions of our own.