saturday was awesome!

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whatszmatter

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#21
I don't know that they're being suckered into believing it. I don't know this guy or what he does, I know a few of his protection pics have me scratching my head about what' hes doing.

But from the words of Ian Dunbar himself, there is a big drop off in reliability in OB performances in the past few years, and it seems more people doing those competitions are "positive only" trainers. But we've (not you and i, but this board) had this discussion a thousand times before.
 
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whatszmatter

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#22
Does your dog have the ability, motivation, or mental stability to be able to play with other dogs after having gone through this training?
and there are plenty of "educated" people that will tell you that a truly dog aggressive dog can be around dogs and even interact with some familiar dogs (supervised) but would never recomend they play with dogs they meet in the park as you suggested before.
 
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Purdue#1

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#23
Some people think its a great idea to whack their children too..and say, oh they are fine. The child then grows up to have issues and.. But no one can ask the dog now can they.

You are not training your dog to not be aggressive, you are training her to be more afraid of you than the other dogs.

And you can train HIGHLY consistent behaviours with NO punishment. Animals way less agreable than dogs are trained by positive methods. I believe the Brelands (who trained 100's of species) had a 98% responce rate...which is extreemly high. Using NO PUNISHMENT.

So if you are happy with this, fine. But don't for a moment let someone sucker you into believing it is better, more reliable or faster. I do competitive obed, I can leave my stud dog in a group stay beside girls in heat and leave. He stays. I have never whacked him, or corrected him in anyway for breaking a stay.

And why would your dog need to stay off leash near a road?
Yet children today are worse than children 50 years ago. :rolleyes:

my dog doesn't fear me. He fears me correcting him. I want him to fear my corrections.

Yeah positive reinforcement really worked the first time. They told me to get rid of him because he was always going to be aggressive.

oh and i never said off leash near a road. i said the dog ran in the road. Maybe it chased something. it saw something on the other side of the road. it doesn't matter. it broke whatever you command you gave it because you didn't train it right.

We don't let the dogs play because by the time training is over its usually dark out and people want to get home. They drive an hour to get there. We are the closest and it takes us 30 mins to get there.


If you all have questions about his methods e-mail him. He doesn't care. His e-mail address is on his website.
 

Herschel

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#25
and there are plenty of "educated" people that will tell you that a truly dog aggressive dog can be around dogs and even interact with some familiar dogs (supervised) but would never recomend they play with dogs they meet in the park as you suggested before.
What is wrong with you? Why are you picking at word choice? Obviously the point I'm making is the "play" behavior is healthy, normal behavior for canines. It doesn't have to be in the park with random dogs--heck, Herschel would probably ignore a random dog in the park for the first couple of times they met.

I like knowing that my dogs have the ability to have fun. Life isn't about fearing a correction and they don't have to be on edge. I like that they can let their guard down and be silly without worrying about me hitting them with a stick.

One lesson and he is no longer aggressive.
If he is no longer aggressive--how does he act in front of other dogs now? In other words, if you take him for a walk tonight and he sees another dog what will he do?
 
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Purdue#1

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#26
He can go on a down-stay with 20 other dogs moving around him and not break the command i gave him. If he saw another dog tonight he would not care. He trusts me that that other dog means nothing and will do nothing.

My dog does not fear me or my stave. He does have the ability to play. He plays with me and mickey all the time. If anything it has made him want to be near me more.
 
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whatszmatter

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#27
Nothing is wrong with me, but thanks for your concern. I'm not picking at word choice, merely pointing out that dogs with a real case of dog aggression usually aren't ever trusted to run and romp with dogs they meet at a park. I never suggested it, you did. Too many variables and a disaster waiting to happen. Just pointing out that it is recommended that these type dogs see other dogs and are around other dogs, but don't necessarily interact with them in romping sessions, other than supervised ones, with a very limited number of dogs they know and those dogs are known to be submissive and passive.


Just because a dog is corrected for something doens't mean it doesn't have the ability to have fun. It doesn't mean they're always worried about correction or living on edge. Sure some people create dogs like that, but that would be like me treating, then clicking and wondering why clicker training isn't working. Screwed up applications are screwed up applications and result in screwed up dogs.
 

otch1

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#28
Holy cow, Perdue. I said "congratulations" on the trainer you found before seeing your post about who they are. These methods are considered very "old school", as are Koehlers. Koehlers' being considered out right animal abuse by many well respected pros' in the industry. I'm not talking about a pop on a prong collar, but rather dogs being strung up, air supply cut off, damaged trachea, bruised hocks from stick corrections. I've seen extreme abuse in these types of programs. As far as trainers relying strictly on physical punishment to achieve obedience, it's considered the lazy mans way of training. I just want to caution you... look out for your dogs well being. Granted, many of us who are trainers can drop a dog in a second and demand a down-stay, even from an aggressive dog in a group setting. Most of us also know better though and work to achieve a level of training that eliminates the dogs desire to break that stay and go after the dog next him. It can be done without these methods. Be careful about what you allow them to do to your dog in the name of "obedience." I have a client whose Malinois turned on him, after extensive training with a Koehler method school. Another whose dog, while never considering disobeying the male owner who did this method of training with him, then attacked the female owner when she corrected him for stealing food. (Simply grabbing his collar and trying to pull him off the counter.) It took a lot of "rehab" and re-training for one that came to me. The other was put down. Yes, they can guarantee it will change your dogs response and behavior, but not always for the better. What compensation do they offer if your dog happens to be one of the dogs ruined with this type of training? Just a thought.
 
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Purdue#1

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#29
Koehlers' being considered out right animal abuse by many well respected pros' in the industry. I'm not talking about a pop on a prong collar, but rather dogs being strung up, air supply cut off, damaged trachea, bruised hocks from stick corrections. I've seen extreme abuse in these types of programs. As far as trainers relying strictly on physical punishment to achieve obedience, it's considered the lazy mans way of training.
I said that he believes in some of his methods.

He told us not to hit him on legs. On the meaty part of their thigh. The stick he wants us to use is very flexible like you could bend it in a circle and it won't break. its supposed to sting, not trear muscle and tendons.

he is not ruined. I can see a real difference in him. he responds to my commands now. he listens, but he is still Sly.
 

Herschel

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#30
I said that he believes in some of his methods.

He told us not to hit him on legs. On the meaty part of their thigh. The stick he wants us to use is very flexible like you could bend it in a circle and it won't break. its supposed to sting, not trear muscle and tendons.

he is not ruined. I can see a real difference in him. he responds to my commands now. he listens, but he is still Sly.
He listens out of fear, though. Why would you want your dog to respond because he's afraid of the consequences? It sounds like bullying to me. "Do as I say, or else!"

The positive reinforcement that you have learned to hate is based around the idea that you can train a dog to want to work with you.
 
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Purdue#1

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#31
I want him to fear a correction.

And dog will not like obedience. At best it will tolerate it.
 

otch1

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#32
No, your dog's not ruined, but you just started training with them. That "sly" behavior, dog aggression, challenging you until you started using a stick are what I'm talking about. Knowing dog behavior is very important here. The "stick" you speak of, I am very familiar with. It hurts twice as much as a stiff pole or rod. It is flexible and thin. The thinner the stick the more sting it delivers, much like a whip would. It doesn't do lasting physical damage because you're hitting the larger muscles. It does cause cause real pain though. Remember some of the movies where the bad guy makes jokes about being able to beat some one where it doesn't leave marks? It's still a beating, still painful. This is simply your dog submitting to punishment verses responding to instruction. I don't want to critique another trainer I don't know. They made statements on their site that were a little silly though. I hope you'll always remember, never let anyone do anything to your dog you're uncomfortable with. Even when it comes from someone who says they're a pro. You are your animals provider and protector. That's a big responsibility, but a job that's quite rewarding when it's based on mutual respect and from an animal that wants to please you verses "has to" please you. Good luck.
 

MafiaPrincess

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And dog will not like obedience. At best it will tolerate it.
My dog happily does Ob for me. I've never hit her to get her to do it.. She wiggles her butt and is overly enthusiastic to work for me. There are options that don't involve pain, and a dog fearing you.
 
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Purdue#1

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#34
I meant he is "Sly". He is still himself. Sly is his name. I'm not unconfortable with what they do. He asked me if i was unconfortable with hitting my dog with a stick. i have no problem. It kept him from being aggressive and i can take him with me around other dogs now.
 

Dekka

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#35
I want him to fear a correction.

And dog will not like obedience. At best it will tolerate it.
WHy? Snip, who is a jack russell (not known for their desire to please humans) thinks obedience training is the best thing ever. My dogs love training! I compete and WIN in obedience with dogs who love to work with me. I have 2 HITs with my dogs. I don't train often (focusing on agility for the last year or so) but my dogs are very keen to be obedient.
 

elegy

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#36
I want him to fear a correction.

And dog will not like obedience. At best it will tolerate it.
why on earth would you want your dog to fear you? doesn't that completely undermine what the relationship between a person and their dog is supposed to be about? i've corrected my dogs, sure, but i have never EVER EVER wanted them to FEAR a correction.
 
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Purdue#1

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#37
My dog doesn't fear ME. It fears my CORRECTIONS. There's a difference.

Here's a test:
Do this without a collar or leash on the dog.

Do a down-stay at 1000 ft. out of sight and scent of the dog for an hour. Make sure you can see the dog, but it can't see or smell you.

Do a sit-stay at 500 ft. for 20 mins. the dog can see you for this one.

Do 10 mins. of heeling.

Do recalls of 300 ft. away with no leash or collar on the dog.

-------------------------------------

Oh and my "relationship" with my dog is stronger since we started this training. He's starting to trust me more. He will listen to what i tell him the first time i tell him. It doesn't take bribery or begging to do it.

Treats don't teach a dog to like obedience. The dog likes the treat not the command.
 
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tessa_s212

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#38
My dog doesn't fear ME. It fears my CORRECTIONS. There's a difference.

Here's a test:
Do this without a collar or leash on the dog.

Do a down-stay at 1000 ft. out of sight and scent of the dog for an hour. Make sure you can see the dog, but it can't see or smell you.

Do a sit-stay at 500 ft. for 20 mins. the dog can see you for this one.

Do 10 mins. of heeling.

Do recalls of 300 ft. away with no leash or collar on the dog.

-------------------------------------

Oh and my "relationship" with my dog is stronger since we started this training. He's starting to trust me more. He will listen to what i tell him the first time i tell him. It doesn't take bribery or begging to do it.

Treats don't teach a dog to like obedience. The dog likes the treat not the command.
You, my friend, whether you are blind to it right now or not, are slowly but surely damaging your relationship with your dog.

You say it fears corrections. Fine. But who are those corrections coming from? Answer me that, and then you will know what the dog truly fears.

And if the dog fears corrections, and the corrections come from you, which then the dog will associate a fear of corrections with you, the dog cannot possibly trust you more than it did before. The dog is not complying now because of a stronger trust with you, but a fear of you.

Treats do teach a dog to like obedience. But not just treats, rewards and positive reinforcements of all kinds. When a dog is trained through positive motivations, they learn that following commands will earn them rewards. Because the commands eventually lead to reward, the commend then alone, in itself becomes fun and enjoyable. This is how after initially teachign a command with treats, one can fade off the treats and the dog still be enjoying itself following those commands. The commands in themselves become fun and enjoyable. It's all about associating words with positive experiences.
 
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tessa_s212

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#39
I suggest you go to your library and order "Bones Would Rain From The Sky: Deepening Our Relationships With Dogs" by Suzanne Clothier. Read open mindedly, learn from others' mistakes, take notes and then apply it. Your dog will be thankful.
 

Herschel

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#40
Here's a test:
Do this without a collar or leash on the dog.

Do a down-stay at 1000 ft. out of sight and scent of the dog for an hour. Make sure you can see the dog, but it can't see or smell you.

Do a sit-stay at 500 ft. for 20 mins. the dog can see you for this one.
Why? What in the world is the purpose of either of those exercises?

I can teach Herschel the names of 5 of his toys in 10 minutes. That doesn't mean it proves anything at all. :confused:

Do 10 mins. of heeling.

Do recalls of 300 ft. away with no leash or collar on the dog.
Both are great exercises and my dog can do both without a problem. Herschel's recall is as close to 100% as I could ever hope for it to be. He has strong prey drive and I can take him to the park at night and let him chase a rabbit. As soon as I say, "STOP!" and call him he comes back.

Herschel was barking at a dog tonight while we were out for our evening walk--he slipped his collar. Did he run after the dog? No. He stood there and waited for us to put his collar back on. He didn't stay because he's scared of us. He stayed because he trusts us.
 
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