If Martin Richling and Ceaser Milan don't know how to train dogs...

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Emmalee

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#1
Then how do you train a dog right? What methods do you use?

If Martin Richling beats his dogs, and Ceaser surpresses bad behavior.. then how do you train them to be good dogs?

Is there really a right method, or are there lots of right methods, you just have to choose one thats right for your dog?
 

Kodaz

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#2
Martin Richling and Ceasar Milan DO know how to train dogs in my opinion. It seems that the others (not all) on these posts are simply civilians who participate in dog competitions, etc...
Those aforementioned men make a very good living training dogs. Milan seems to be more sensitive to people whereas Richling seems to simply care for the dog. Richling also sent me a DVD and i will tell you what: his dogs LOVE him and the things they do I have NEVER seen any other dogs do EVER. He does have a trainer's school every year and I am going to attend.
Oh well...just my opinion.
 

silverpawz

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#5
Is there really a right method, or are there lots of right methods, you just have to choose one thats right for your dog?
You do what works for you and your dog, provided that it is humane, and produces a happy, willing, obedient dog. I don't feel that hitting dogs with a stave is humane.

As far as Ceaser goes, you're gonna get all different types of opinions on him. There are things I think he does right, and other things I'm not fond of. But I will say that I've never seen him hit a dog or promote it to others.

I don't think you can compare Ceaser to Richling.

Your dog will show you what works. Listen to him.
 
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#6
I have been swamped lately and haven't been able to respond to any of these recent "training" threads but I have skimmed through them and I'm speechless.....ALMOST.;)

The methods used by people such as the two men being debated about are antiquated and proven to add substantial risk for less than predictable results.

As for the posters (civilians;) ) on this board who discount their methods as old school, primative and even dangerous - I can tell you that as a professional certified behavior specialist who works extensively (very successfully) with aggression/bite cases, I stand shoulder to shoulder with those 'civilians' and whole heartedly agree!!!!! Positive PHYSICAL punishment DOES NOT WORK RELIABLY AND IS INHUMANE!!!!!!

I DO NOT lay a hand on any of the dogs that I work with EVER. I train many dogs that outweigh me, often by 100%. Many of the dogs that I work with are at a last stop before the final needle and are what so many like to dramatically call RED ZONE. I use proven +R methods to actually effect behavior change and truly rehab. dogs who more often than not have been physically corrected to the point of total unpredictability. People who use the old yank/crank methods have chosen to remain in the dark ages.....it's a **** shame.

I see that there are a few on here who seem to merely want to hold onto their 'right' to physically punish their dogs. From where I have been (my roots in Schutz), to where I am now..I can't look back on the way that we ALL used to train without feeling physically ill. While I never participated in some of the horrible kinds of mistreatment (including the use of stave), I watched as "trainers" abused dogs to the point of screaming. It turns my stomach to read here that anyone would discount proven humane methods simply for the sake of arguement. It shows a total lack of understanding of the science behind DOMESTIC canine learning, not to mention a frightening lack of heart.

I and many other successful trainers am achieving better results, much more predictable behavior, without having to yank, hit, frighten or intimidate. The dogs that I rehab. and train today are also happier and more eager to learn. They learn quicker and maintain what they've learned, all while RETAINING ALL THAT IS DOG!

The dogs who attend my Growl classes are actually rehabilitated when they graduate. The DA and HA is no longer an issue because they actually learn to accept and in many cases even enjoy the presence of the trigger. No punishment, no avoidance...real rehabilitation.

Cesar (while very charming) and that other guy (can't even bring myself to type his name:mad: )...well, they simply have no clue that they have no clue!!!:rolleyes:

Melissa, I have to ask you why you are so hostile to those so willing to find a kinder way to train the animal you're supposed to love. This is a dog forum after all. Please try to have an open mind to those who have more experience and an understanding for training. I've been doing this professionally for many, many years. I used to believe at least some of what you seem to want to hang onto as gospel. You are in the minority for a reason, maybe you should reflect a bit on that instead of trying to protect your right/need to punish.
 

Emmalee

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#8
Ok, thank you for the replies. I use positive reinforcement with treats on Tavish. He doesn't always obey as he is still learning simple commands like sit. Were still working on that ;)

I've watched the Dog Whisperer and I have to wonder if he really trains those dogs in a day? Especially the hard cases.
 

Doberluv

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#9
LOL Danegirl! When you've had enough, can you pass me some? LOL

Listen. There are different methods to train a dog. Getting a dog to do certain things, even phenomenal things is one small part of it, IMO. The other part in training dogs is that they are not harmed or exploited to a degree that isn't good for them or damaging to the relationship between human and dog.

The positive training "movement" if you will is utilizing very effective training methods based on sound, solid science and loads of experience of educated behaviorists and such. When learned, these methods are every bit, if not more reliable because the dog learns self control rather than being forced. There are oodles of data that support this. You'd have to do your own research because it's too much to type. And heaven knows, my posts are wicked long as it is.

The idea is that the dog is learning to earn, not learning to avoid a punishment. There are consequences and some serious fall out from using a lot of harsh punishment. These are well substantiated if you do some research into it. There are some good links and articles posted on some recent threads here as well as books and other articles online. If you study behaviorism and canine behavior specifically, you will understand what I'm talking about.

Having a dog do certain tasks is great, but at what cost? I do not believe that a dog is happy when he is hit, jerked hard with a choke or prong collar, scolded sternly and made fearful. I believe that many of the expressions and body language signs that dogs use, people mistake for happiness when they are in fact signs of appeasement. Great amounts of study have been made on this subject alone. There is a huge amount of detrimental side affects associated with harsh punishment. I say "harsh" because punishment can be part of training. Punishment can be soft and sweet. It does not have to be severely aversive. For example, my Dobe has learned that if he's gone too far out to the end of his leash and I need him to get back closer to me (this is on a casual loose leash walk, not a formal heel) all I say is "uh-oh" in a playful, baby talk voice. I kid you not. So, there I'm adding something (positive) which makes him stop doing what he's doing (punishment) and change his behavior. When teaching him this, I'd reinforce him for getting back into position. I never yanked on his collar or scolded him. I'd pause in my walking which he had learned means that forward motion is about to stop. He'd stop and I'd wait. He knew that being along side me equalled forward movement so he backed up along side me and was reinforced heavily for it. Now, it's just a little reminder, "uh-oh" and he flies back beside me.

When we're walking and I don't let him have that much freedom but it's still not a formal heel, I tell him, "nice walkies." And he stays rather next to me, but there is still some leway. Heel is "heel" and that is a very precise position which he learned with a clicker. He's very precise and looks at me every several steps. I don't like the way they often do it where the dog looks at you the whole time. So for our needs and life style, it's just every so often or if I ask, "watch me." I started him with no leash or collar and alternated between naked and the use of a leash. There is nothing to pull against. (no opposition reflex which dogs have in abundance) If the dog wants a click and treat, he walks the right way. If not, I just keep walking. Soon the dog figures out where to be in order to get the covetted treat. A little bit hungry dog helps and a variation of treats help, starting with a not so tasty treat and using the tastier treats for more difficult things. All that is kind of simplified and there's a little more to it as far a variable reward schedules to make the dog not dependent on treats later, once the behavior is installed and some shaping....whereby the dog is rewarded for approximations of the ultimate behavior and then the ante is raised and no longer is he rewarded for sloppier behavior. He needs to give me more. Soon, that becomes the base from which we work and so on.

In other words, the dog is using his own head more. He is having more fun working for reward. He is more lively and exuberant. It's all a game. There is no pain or discomfort, no worry about doing the right thing or else. It works very thoroughly and makes for excellent reliability if done RIGHT. It takes a little study, yes. But what doesn't?
 

Doberluv

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#10
I have been swamped lately and haven't been able to respond to any of these recent "training" threads but I have skimmed through them and I'm speechless.....ALMOST.

The methods used by people such as the two men being debated about are antiquated and proven to add substantial risk for less than predictable results.

As for the posters (civilians ) on this board who discount their methods as old school, primative and even dangerous - I can tell you that as a professional certified behavior specialist who works extensively (very successfully) with aggression/bite cases, I stand shoulder to shoulder with those 'civilians' and whole heartedly agree!!!!! Positive PHYSICAL punishment DOES NOT WORK RELIABLY AND IS INHUMANE!!!!!!

I DO NOT lay a hand on any of the dogs that I work with EVER. I train many dogs that outweigh me, often by 100%. Many of the dogs that I work with are at a last stop before the final needle and are what so many like to dramatically call RED ZONE. I use proven +R methods to actually effect behavior change and truly rehab. dogs who more often than not have been physically corrected to the point of total unpredictability. People who use the old yank/crank methods have chosen to remain in the dark ages.....it's a **** shame.

I see that there are a few on here who seem to merely want to hold onto their 'right' to physically punish their dogs. From where I have been (my roots in Schutz), to where I am now..I can't look back on the way that we ALL used to train without feeling physically ill. While I never participated in some of the horrible kinds of mistreatment (including the use of stave), I watched as "trainers" abused dogs to the point of screaming. It turns my stomach to read here that anyone would discount proven humane methods simply for the sake of arguement. It shows a total lack of understanding of the science behind DOMESTIC canine learning, not to mention a frightening lack of heart.

I and many other successful trainers am achieving better results, much more predictable behavior, without having to yank, hit, frighten or intimidate. The dogs that I rehab. and train today are also happier and more eager to learn. They learn quicker and maintain what they've learned, all while RETAINING ALL THAT IS DOG!

The dogs who attend my Growl classes are actually rehabilitated when they graduate. The DA and HA is no longer an issue because they actually learn to accept and in many cases even enjoy the presence of the trigger. No punishment, no avoidance...real rehabilitation.

Cesar (while very charming) and that other guy (can't even bring myself to type his name )...well, they simply have no clue that they have no clue!!!

Melissa, I have to ask you why you are so hostile to those so willing to find a kinder way to train the animal you're supposed to love. This is a dog forum after all. Please try to have an open mind to those who have more experience and an understanding for training. I've been doing this professionally for many, many years. I used to believe at least some of what you seem to want to hang onto as gospel. You are in the minority for a reason, maybe you should reflect a bit on that instead of trying to protect your right/need to punish.
:hail: :hail: :hail:

It's about cotton pickin' time sista! So glad you joined us. Your post and you are wonderful!!!!!!
 

Kodaz

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I have just gotten off of the phone with Mr. Richling, and if you all understood what his dogs have to do and where he has to do it, you would understand WHY he trains the way he does. The stress that his dogs were under in the past and the stress that his dogs are now currently under calls for these methods. He also had given me numbers from people/clients of his and told me to call them. I have spoken to several thus far (the list numbers over 50 alone) and they all have read these posts and are LAUGHING at the misrepresentation on here of him. He (Richling) said that after he tried to answer professionally in the beginning but was met by a bunch of fools with their minds made-up already, that he then decided to give them what they were accusing him of: and he did love it too! I have also checked his professional K-9 experience and I understand why he cannot post details of where he worked for security reasons. And the slander regarding him on a personal level is simply a JOKE. And as far as you DR2little saying that the "minority" trains like that? Well, most of the time in this world, the minority is correct. If you knew anything at all of world history and events, etc...Not all the time mind you: most of the time.
And it still needs to be said LOUD AND CLEAR: did any of you ever notice that not one time can it be said that Richling's methods DO NOT WORK? Now, is that not the bottom line? I could see if Richling's training produced dogs that were afraid of their owners; but nothing could be more farther from the truth. Those dogs LOVE their owners. It just seems to me that the same people who do not physically correct their dogs do not believe in spanking kids either. Such a reflection of the 'slouching unto perdition' society we currently live in...Richling is right. That is my opinion.
 

Doberluv

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#14
did any of you ever notice that not one time can it be said that Richling's methods DO NOT WORK? Now, is that not the bottom line?
NO. It is not the bottom line in my opinion or in that of multitudes of others.
 

Zoom

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#15
Well I am so effing glad that you see our hippie training ways as a good laugh to share around the dinner table. Meanwhile, the rest of us will continue to listen to what our dogs are telling us and why they are doing what they do and figure out how to train them to the same level of reliability without resorting to caveman tactics. I think you all would be greatly surprised to see what can be achieved through +R, though I'm sure you would blow it off as a freak occurance. A dog that is stable and confident in his handler, as in not having to wonder if what's behind him is worse than what's in front of him, can perform any task you set to him. The +R camp just doesn't take shortcuts. You want fast, "reliable" results, then go ahead and keep doing the yank and crank. It'll look technically proficient after all and is great for bragging rights. It just has very little heart behind it.

Forgive me for the "nerding out" but I keep thinking of this one episode of Star Trek: TNG I saw a few years ago. Data was playing the violin, and while hitting every note spot on, his music just didn't evoke the emotions that the human players could. He had no heart, no soul and the music reflected that.

Dogs are infamous for loving the hands that hurt them, otherwise why would soulless "real" animal abusers be able to say "oh my dog loves me, look he's wagging his tail and trying to protect me from all you people coming to take him away!"

My training roots also started off in the Kohler tradition, with a nationally known and respected trainer. I also quickly learned that while the dogs we worked with would pick up the commands, you could see a deadening in their eyes if you looked closely enough. These dogs would also require "turning on" with a sharp correction and these were former Schutz. dogs, service dogs and PP dogs. I'm still having to untrain shutdown behaviors out of one client's dog.

So in short, I've learned that there IS a better way and it doesn't require macho ego to accomplish it.
 

Saintgirl

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#16
Kodaz, if Richling is laughing at us, so be it- but you couln't get me to agree with his methods if you were pulling out my fingernails. Yes, his methods do work, but that is not the issue here. It is the oldschool methods that he uses that have been proven to be outdated and not nearly as beneficial as the newer positive training techniques. Sure, he has dogs that obey and follow his every command but it is the how they have been taught which saddens me. They could have achieved the same level of obedience through a different, more positive manner. He claims they can't but has he truely attempted any other methods? Why is it that his methods are the end all to be all? All we other 'civilians' are trying to say is that there are other ways, ways that I find much more constructive and rewarding. Why is it that those who are so stuck on Richlings methods refuse to awknowledge that there are other ways?

They learn quicker and maintain what they've learned, all while RETAINING ALL THAT IS DOG!
This really struck me Doc. I have dogs in my life because I love dogs and couldn't imagine my journey through life without one. I love the different personalities that each dog has and working with each one so that we can live together harmoniously. I want my dogs to be dogs. At the same time I want a dog who understands appropriate behaviors and acts upon them because they enjoy to do so. They do not act out of fear, they do not stress in a situation because they look to me for guidence.

LOUD AND CLEAR: did any of you ever notice that not one time can it be said that Richling's methods DO NOT WORK? Now, is that not the bottom line? I could see if Richling's training produced dogs that were afraid of their owners; but nothing could be more farther from the truth. Those dogs LOVE their owners.
It isn't the bottom line. I believe you that the dogs love their owners even after being trained this way. The difference is these dogs act on command because they are avoiding punishment. My dogs act on command because they will be greatly rewarded!

It just seems to me that the same people who do not physically correct their dogs do not believe in spanking kids either.
Again, I have a student debt loan probably higher than your annual salary in human behavioral psychology. Same deal- spanking gets results but there are so many more effective and beneficail ways. You see, behavior modification is a science and is always advancing. Imagine if we only had the same scientific advancement we had until 1890, where would we be now? Behavior modification as a science has experienced the same advancements other scientific areas have made. In my opinion, it is time to stop living in the dark ages.
 

MelissaCato

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#18
Please try to have an open mind to those who have more experience and an understanding for training.
I'm listening openly, I'm just contributing and people don't like that.
Do I have to agree with ya'll to be here? Because if I do, and not have my own mind, I'll surely leave.
 
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#20
so you can bring in your "followers" And its like a party, but when we bring in our followers it WWIII. Are you scared?
Listen Purdue, I don't know you from Eve but I'm painfully aware of your lack of knowledge as illustrated by your posts. Next time you address me in that fashion I will slap you with an infraction without a thought. The time after that, you'll be banned.:mad:
 
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