Going Saturday to look at puppies...
- Thread starter Mac'sMom
- Start date
Nope. A lot of BYBs will trick buyers into buying using that because people think it is the same as showing. I'm not saying yours is a BYB I'm just saying AKC registered is not the same as being shown. The puppies parents should be Champions in the ring so you know they are the best dogs being bred for the welfare of their breed. I'm also not sure what testing needs to be done on that breed. Look for her to mention OFA and CERF screenings. Those are VERY important to make sure she is breeding the healthiest dogs for the healthiest puppies.
I would be wary of both breeders - the one you're going to see and the one you posted the site of. Being AKC registered or champion sired doesn't mean anything for one. Any breeder can register their litters with the AKC, it doesn't mean they are good specimens of the breed, nor that they are healthy genetically-wise.
A breeder that posts on breeder.net and doesn't have any list for their pups when they are 5 weeks old is a big red flag. A good breeder will make sure there are people interested in the puppies beforehand. A good breeder will only breed to improve the breed, not to make money or for 'fun'.
Sure, you probably don't want a show dog. But it doesn't mean you shouldn't be very picky about who you are getting your dog from.
Good breeders will test the parents for health issues before breeding - it includes hips and eyes, plus whatever health issues the breed can have. It is very important that the testing is done. If it's not, it means that the parents could carry all kinds of genetic issues from poor breeding, and the puppies are likely to have them, too. Breeders that don't check the health of the parents before breeding just don't care that the puppies might end up suffering all their life, and I find it disgusting. And most of the breeders that post on sites like breeders.net are of that kind, ie, backyard breeders.
Another thing about backyard breeders - they don't care about whether the dog is a good specimen of the breed or not. So you could end up with a dog that doesn't look like a papillon, and doesn't have the right temperament either. Compare a show dog with a petstore puppy of the same breed, and you'll see the difference - well, it's the same with backyard breeders, who just take two dogs and breed them. Saying that the parents are of champion bloodlines, or that a friend of the family said they are good specimen of the breed doesn't prove anything either - the dogs need to be titled to make sure that they are indeed a good example of the breed.
I strongly suggest that you read all the stickies, especially this thread, so you are sure to have a healthy pup.
A breeder that posts on breeder.net and doesn't have any list for their pups when they are 5 weeks old is a big red flag. A good breeder will make sure there are people interested in the puppies beforehand. A good breeder will only breed to improve the breed, not to make money or for 'fun'.
Sure, you probably don't want a show dog. But it doesn't mean you shouldn't be very picky about who you are getting your dog from.
Good breeders will test the parents for health issues before breeding - it includes hips and eyes, plus whatever health issues the breed can have. It is very important that the testing is done. If it's not, it means that the parents could carry all kinds of genetic issues from poor breeding, and the puppies are likely to have them, too. Breeders that don't check the health of the parents before breeding just don't care that the puppies might end up suffering all their life, and I find it disgusting. And most of the breeders that post on sites like breeders.net are of that kind, ie, backyard breeders.
Another thing about backyard breeders - they don't care about whether the dog is a good specimen of the breed or not. So you could end up with a dog that doesn't look like a papillon, and doesn't have the right temperament either. Compare a show dog with a petstore puppy of the same breed, and you'll see the difference - well, it's the same with backyard breeders, who just take two dogs and breed them. Saying that the parents are of champion bloodlines, or that a friend of the family said they are good specimen of the breed doesn't prove anything either - the dogs need to be titled to make sure that they are indeed a good example of the breed.
I strongly suggest that you read all the stickies, especially this thread, so you are sure to have a healthy pup.
OK, OK! You were all right. (sob sob) We walked away.
We actually spent almost an hour there. Before we left we saw 13 dogs (including the 5 puppies) and I'm not even sure that was all of them. We pretty much acted like we didn't know much and let her talk to us. And boy did she talk. She thought our Mac was great and said what a beautiful coat he had. (Yeah because it looked like her dogs are outside most of the time and were dirty and not well cared for (as far as grooming goes - they all looked well feed and loved by her and her family) The pap puppies were all she had for sale, at least right now. She made a big deal about the puppies not being ready to leave momma yet (5 weeks duh) but said maybe in another week (what?). Nothing was said about health issues at all so before we left I asked if her paps ever had eye or knee problems (which can be problems for paps) and of course she said, "Oh, no!" That was it. She owned the momma and poppa, but only had a picture of the daddy because she said he was shot by a neighbor:yikes: . They lived on a farm.
Of course the puppies were adorable. Very lively, happy, playful little things. Momma watched over them closely and was taking good care of them. A couple of them seemed to have a little cough. (Not sure how else to describe it) I've never been around puppies that young so is that normal? She had them in a plastic kiddie pool with the stuff that looked like what you put in hampster cages, a bowl of dry food and a bowl of water and a small dirty bed. Wasn't too fond of that. They pooped and peed in it while we were there and she just left them walk around in it.
We told her we were looking for a pup that would be from 8 to 10 lbs grown and she said these would be at least 8 lbs, but I doubt it. Momma certainly didn't look that big and who knows about dad from a picture. Oh, you'll like this, she said this was her third litter of paps and where did we get Mac? We told her we got him at a pet store. (Don't yell at me - I think you all knew this and i've learned alot from this forum that's why we're trying to find a good breeder) so anyway she tells how we got ripped off because one litter she had was around Chistmas so she contacted a pet store in Indy to see how much they would give her for the puppies, but they said they could only pay $200.00 and she knew they would charge at least $800 or $900 for them. Can you believe that, she actually told us she would have been willing to sell to a pet store.
Well, I've rambled enough. Needless to say we're still looking. And to all of you who want to say, I told you so...go ahead, I can take it.
We actually spent almost an hour there. Before we left we saw 13 dogs (including the 5 puppies) and I'm not even sure that was all of them. We pretty much acted like we didn't know much and let her talk to us. And boy did she talk. She thought our Mac was great and said what a beautiful coat he had. (Yeah because it looked like her dogs are outside most of the time and were dirty and not well cared for (as far as grooming goes - they all looked well feed and loved by her and her family) The pap puppies were all she had for sale, at least right now. She made a big deal about the puppies not being ready to leave momma yet (5 weeks duh) but said maybe in another week (what?). Nothing was said about health issues at all so before we left I asked if her paps ever had eye or knee problems (which can be problems for paps) and of course she said, "Oh, no!" That was it. She owned the momma and poppa, but only had a picture of the daddy because she said he was shot by a neighbor:yikes: . They lived on a farm.
Of course the puppies were adorable. Very lively, happy, playful little things. Momma watched over them closely and was taking good care of them. A couple of them seemed to have a little cough. (Not sure how else to describe it) I've never been around puppies that young so is that normal? She had them in a plastic kiddie pool with the stuff that looked like what you put in hampster cages, a bowl of dry food and a bowl of water and a small dirty bed. Wasn't too fond of that. They pooped and peed in it while we were there and she just left them walk around in it.
We told her we were looking for a pup that would be from 8 to 10 lbs grown and she said these would be at least 8 lbs, but I doubt it. Momma certainly didn't look that big and who knows about dad from a picture. Oh, you'll like this, she said this was her third litter of paps and where did we get Mac? We told her we got him at a pet store. (Don't yell at me - I think you all knew this and i've learned alot from this forum that's why we're trying to find a good breeder) so anyway she tells how we got ripped off because one litter she had was around Chistmas so she contacted a pet store in Indy to see how much they would give her for the puppies, but they said they could only pay $200.00 and she knew they would charge at least $800 or $900 for them. Can you believe that, she actually told us she would have been willing to sell to a pet store.
Well, I've rambled enough. Needless to say we're still looking. And to all of you who want to say, I told you so...go ahead, I can take it.
Good for you! It's a shame how many bad breeders are out there and that most people have not the slightest idea. I mean we all get angry at the "stupid" people that buy from pet stores and horrible breeders but I mean, how are they supposed to know that they are bad, who was gonna teach them that? So it's good you joined so you'll do this right! This is the Papillon club of America site http://www.papillonclub.org/
and here is the breeders directory (it should be Indiana) http://www.papillonclub.org/pcabreederslist.htm#INDIANA and they show three breeders. Why don't you e-mail them and see if any have pups or a litter on the way. You might have to be on a waiting list though which is always difficult (this is one reason why I will always rescue, I'm too impatient :lol-sign: ) but you'll get your pap eventually.
and here is the breeders directory (it should be Indiana) http://www.papillonclub.org/pcabreederslist.htm#INDIANA and they show three breeders. Why don't you e-mail them and see if any have pups or a litter on the way. You might have to be on a waiting list though which is always difficult (this is one reason why I will always rescue, I'm too impatient :lol-sign: ) but you'll get your pap eventually.
Most breeders will ask for a deposit as way to prove that you are truely interested in the pups, otherwise they run the risk of having a litter that only half has an actual home, while all the rest have to wait. That being said, most good breeders have a list of "firsts" and then usually an auxillary list of people who were willing to wait until the next litter because they wanted a dog that badly. If you throughly do your research and get to know the breeder, by the time things get around to the deposit aspect, you should be chomping at the bit for the chance to reserve a pup.
Keep in mind though that paps don't have big litters generally and you may be in for more of a wait than you'd like, but it's worth it to get the dog you want! I'm on a waiting list for an Aussie litter that won't even be bred until 2009 and I've been on it since 2006!
Keep in mind though that paps don't have big litters generally and you may be in for more of a wait than you'd like, but it's worth it to get the dog you want! I'm on a waiting list for an Aussie litter that won't even be bred until 2009 and I've been on it since 2006!
So glad you knew what to look for .... the wading pool with shavings would have stopped me right there ! You'll find the right one . I'll check with my vets and see if any of their clients know of a good breeder . Unfortunately I don't know of any Pap owners , but will keep my eyes and ears open . Where are you in IN ??
there is also this place. It is very expensive but I don't know how much you are willing to pay or how much it usually costs. From what is listed here the place looks good but they don't have an actual website that I can find so you'll have to talk to them and see if they seem good. The page says they breed to breed standard but don't talk about championships or confirmation so I don't know if they actually show. You'll have to find that out. They say they screen for genetic diseases which sounds right but ask about what kinds of screenings they do if you speak to them. http://puppydogweb.com/kennels/papillon_kindred.htm
I'll keep looking and see if I find any more that look pretty good.
I'll keep looking and see if I find any more that look pretty good.
this place looks ok and I see CERF under SOME of the parents names. They are also not all champion breeding stock. I'm not sure how great they are so maybe someone else can give it a look see also and see if they look good to them http://www.braylorspapillons.com/
Whew! Just got back from a 2 mile walk in the park with Mackie. A little bit tired right now.
Thank you guys for all of your suggestions and help. We are willing to wait as long as it takes. We have researched other breeds. We love Mackie so much we compare every pap we see to him and none compare. lol Maxy, you have alot of patience. And Grammy (if I may call you by that name) we live in Fort Wayne. Are you in IN too?
Thank you guys for all of your suggestions and help. We are willing to wait as long as it takes. We have researched other breeds. We love Mackie so much we compare every pap we see to him and none compare. lol Maxy, you have alot of patience. And Grammy (if I may call you by that name) we live in Fort Wayne. Are you in IN too?
Yes , been in Indianapolis for 9 years , before that Muncie . I'm Grammy to all !! I've got an old friend living in Ft. Wayne .... Margaret Watson . Will be looking for you ...can you give me a price range ??? Having been a breeder , I know what to look for . Not Paps per say , but good breeders as to the situation and conditions .... especially their socializing .